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Let's Talk About Dexterity

dustbubsydustbubsy Member Posts: 249
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
So following my topic on strength last week, today we talk about dexterity, the attribute that measures your physical reflexes and nimbleness. To my mind two kinds of dexterity have been condensed into this stat: physical and manual dexterity. Physical being how adept you are at dodging blows, avoiding pitfalls and performing elegant moves in battle, and manual being how good you are at tinkering with locks, disarming traps, or firing that top-of-the-line crossbow in record time.

Dexterity has often been a stat that every class is recommended to have a good score in, as it affects armour class. However, the existence of the Gauntlets of Dexterity means that even a character with mediocre dexterity can boost it artificially, often becoming a powerhouse in the process.

Dexterity Scores

9: Osprey, Keldorn, Cernd, Wilson

And the Captain Butterfingers award goes to... though like with strength, no NPC has such bad dex that it causes serious penalties. Osprey is the female half-elven cleric/mage with 16 strength btw, some strange stats there. Cernd should endeavour to be like the supple willow instead of the rigid oak. Having fought in plate mail for most of his life, I'm sure Keldorn never got to grips with more fluid fighting styles... I imagine him as someone who often gets knocked down in battle but just keeps on fighting. His ass bone has been broken many times in the service of justice.

10: Edwin, Anomen

Again, Anomen is fighting in plate mail most of the time. I'm not sure what Edwin's excuse is.

12: Arkanis, Kagain, Yeslick, Eldoth

None at 11, so let me take you to dwarfy-town. Dwarves in my view are generally good with their hands, but not their physiques. This oddly fits Eldoth too, since he crafts those poison arrows.

13: Canderous, Ajantis, Dynaheir

Reaching the higher end of average, Canderous and Ajantis being reasonable dextrous for plate mail fighters. I must stress though that there is no mechanical difference between Dexterity of 7 and 14 unless you're a thief, bard or ranger. Weird, but there you go.

14: Jaheira (BG1), Baeloth

Ah yes, Jaheira learnt a few tricks in BG2 ;)

15: Minsc (BG1), Faldorn, Quayle (BG1), Korgan

Finally at 15 we get a -1 armour class adjustment. From here on armour class rises with each point up to 18, so there's no reason not to increase it as far as it will go. This is why Minsc (and Jaheira, though she frontlines less often) is a lot better in Baldur's Gate II. Good ol' Korgan showing his fellow dwarves how it's done.

16: Xzar, Khalid, Garrick, Branwen, Xan, Tiax, Minsc (BG2), Quayle (BG:EE), Dorn, Rasaad, Clara

Wow, tons of characters here. 16 gives you -2AC and +1 when attacking with missile weapons, and didn't the game makers want plenty of people to have this. Giving Quayle an extra point of dexterity really made him better... was he always meant to have this score? I really never saw Xzar being this slippery, or Branwen being this limber, but there you go. On the other hand it seems low for Rasaad, but I'm aware that Monks have to spread their points pretty thin.

17: Mordaine, Montaron, Kivan, Safana, Shar-Teel, Jaheira (BG2), Aerie, Jan, Sarevok, Neera

A fair amount of character have 17 as well, giving -3AC and +2 to hit rolls with ranged weaponry. These are really nice benefits to have. Even though Kivan could have as high as 19, he still kicks ass with 17, for example. Even a big guy like Sarevok can get his dexterity up here, suggesting it's a skill that can be learnt.

18: Imoen, Deder, Skie, Yoshimo, Nalia, Mazzy, Valygar

These individuals are at the peak of their gracefulness. In fact, have Yoshimo and Valygar in the party for long enough and they start organising dance recitals (not really). -4AC, +2 ranged. What poise.

19: Viconia, Alora

Viconia and Alora go beyond the human limits of dexterity - these are girls who always land on their feet. I actually imagine Alora as being very feline, squeezing through the narrowest gaps in gates to rob places. Despite being a cleric (often consigned to heavy plate mail), in the Underdark Viconia would probably have grown up wearing lightweight, unrestrictive chainmail, letting her develop dextrous skills. In addition to -4AC they both get +3 to hit rolls with ranged weapons.

20: Coran, Hexxat

Wow. Yes, Coran is illegal, but I personally like these flavoursome stat scores. Coran is a guy I can see performing multiple backflips in the heat of battle, scaling walls barehanded to reach his paramours, and being banned from every archery competition on the Sword Coast. What makes it even funnier is that generally it's the female NPCs with the higher average Dex scores. Hexxat is a vampire so this stuff is pretty standard for her, but wow. You've got to love flexible Coran... right?


So that's all I have on dexterity. With the spread for strength being much more varied, I think the game makers definitely put a base Dex score of 16 on a lot of characters to make them viable, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the average adventurer does have to have a high dexterity score, because it's the most important stat? Thoughts?
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Comments

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    elminster said:

    Dexterity is kind of interesting because unless you are a thief (and to a much lesser degree a ranged character) it only minimally improves your character if it were to rise from 18 to 25.

    Even as a thief it doesn't help you that much as you should already have so many thieving skills from level ups. It's one of the more useless attributes to get past 19, up there with Intelligence and Charisma.
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    edited April 2014
    I wouldnt say max Dex is useless. Two extra AC bonus can give you an edge in some tough battles (from Dex 19 to 24).
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    bbear said:

    I wouldnt say max Dex is useless. Two extra AC bonus can give you an edge in some tough battles (from Dex 19 to 24).

    But Dexterity is impossible to max unless you got DuHM.
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    SionIV said:

    bbear said:

    I wouldnt say max Dex is useless. Two extra AC bonus can give you an edge in some tough battles (from Dex 19 to 24).

    But Dexterity is impossible to max unless you got DuHM.
    Mind Focusing Potions raises Dex and Int stats by 3 every usage. They are sold in Temples and are abundant in the game.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited April 2014
    bbear said:

    SionIV said:

    bbear said:

    I wouldnt say max Dex is useless. Two extra AC bonus can give you an edge in some tough battles (from Dex 19 to 24).

    But Dexterity is impossible to max unless you got DuHM.
    Mind Focusing Potions raises Dex and Int stats by 3 every usage. They are sold in Temples and are abundant in the game.
    But is it really worth drinking those to gain one more AC? And you still won't reach 25 dexterity without DuHM. Unless you're going to stack the potions which would be silly, but if you want the 2 AC that badly.
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    How is stacking potions silly? This is not like potions of strength where the stat is set to a certain value. The text does not prohibit against multiple usages.

    Regarding about the extra 2 AC, sometimes it is important. In a fight against a mob, having 2 extra AC means getting hit fewer hits. Every bits of defense help in tough fights.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    bbear said:

    How is stacking potions silly? This is not like potions of strength where the stat is set to a certain value. The text does not prohibit against multiple usages.

    Regarding about the extra 2 AC, sometimes it is important. In a fight against a mob, having 2 extra AC means getting hit fewer hits. Every bits of defense help in tough fights.

    It really isn't worth stacking dexterity potions when you're on 18 already, those 2 AC just aren't worth it. When you get to a point where you can actually stack the potions for those 2 AC you'll already have enough money/gear to have a high enough AC where you won't be needing those two.

    I would sell the potions for money over stacking two for fights.

    And i find it silly to stack potions, just personal opinion.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited April 2014
    @SionV, from a powergaming perspective would you max let's say an elven Fighter/Mage's DEX at 18 if you didn't have abundant stat points to redistribute? Or similarly: would you have your 19 DEX elven Fighter/mage give the DEX tome to a party member (e.g. Imoen)?
    Like @bbear I have the possibly irrational inclination to max DEX at character creation, even when playing elves or halflings who aren't rogues or ranged attackers. Well it's not necessarily irrational, it's also for roleplaying purposes: even my warriors are normally agile dualwielders clad in light or medium armor.

    In reply the OP, I tend to focus a lot on DEX when picking NPCs, and try not to go lower than 15 or 16 with them. Like SionV I would normally have only one clumsy NPC in the party, with the Gauntlets of DEX to make up for it. This is another reason I always max DEX, I wouldn't want to rely on the gauntlets and limit my options regarding party composition.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    Blackraven said:

    @SionV, from a powergaming perspective would you max let's say an elven Fighter/Mage's DEX at 18 if you didn't have abundant stat points to redistribute? Or similarly: would you have your 19 DEX elven Fighter/mage give the DEX tome to a party member (e.g. Imoen)?
    Like @bbear I have the possibly irrational inclination to max DEX at character creation, even when playing elves or halflings who aren't rogues or ranged attackers. Well it's not necessarily irrational, it's also for roleplaying purposes: even my warriors are normally agile dualwielders clad in light or medium armor.

    My last playthrough i gave the dex tome to Jaheira so she would get 18 dexterity instead of my F/M/T so he could get 20.
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    Beside feeling good, it doesnt make sense in a powergameing perspective to permanently raise Dex stat by one point above 19. Progressions in range thaco and AC bonus are very slow. It's easier to chug potions instead and the effect of Mind Focusing potion lasts for 15 hours.

    Dex stat is great for both range and melee characters. From 19 to 24 Dex, range character gets +2 range thaco and melee gets +2 AC. In many situations, getting 24 Dex may not matter. In tough fights against demons and dragons, it can be the difference between victory and loss.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    SionIV said:

    bbear said:

    SionIV said:

    bbear said:

    I wouldnt say max Dex is useless. Two extra AC bonus can give you an edge in some tough battles (from Dex 19 to 24).

    But Dexterity is impossible to max unless you got DuHM.
    Mind Focusing Potions raises Dex and Int stats by 3 every usage. They are sold in Temples and are abundant in the game.
    But is it really worth drinking those to gain one more AC? And you still won't reach 25 dexterity without DuHM. Unless you're going to stack the potions which would be silly, but if you want the 2 AC that badly.
    Sorry, but stacking potions is helluva good.
    You can't even imagine how good those Potions are when you use them with a Cleric->Mage that has 13 DEX.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    @CrevsDaak, I know someone who's playing through SoA atm with a CLeric->Mage ;)
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    CrevsDaak said:

    SionIV said:

    bbear said:

    SionIV said:

    bbear said:

    I wouldnt say max Dex is useless. Two extra AC bonus can give you an edge in some tough battles (from Dex 19 to 24).

    But Dexterity is impossible to max unless you got DuHM.
    Mind Focusing Potions raises Dex and Int stats by 3 every usage. They are sold in Temples and are abundant in the game.
    But is it really worth drinking those to gain one more AC? And you still won't reach 25 dexterity without DuHM. Unless you're going to stack the potions which would be silly, but if you want the 2 AC that badly.
    Sorry, but stacking potions is helluva good.
    You can't even imagine how good those Potions are when you use them with a Cleric->Mage that has 13 DEX.
    Stacking different potions are fine, i'm just not into stacking the same potion. I'll never be in a situation where i need to stack two of the same potions anyway.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    A bit off-topic: I tend to stack Potions of Genius with those of Mind Focusing before extensive spell scribing sessions. And the powergamer in me tends to stack potions of Master Thievery for my traditional pickpocketing tour through BG City.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    dustbubsy said:

    19: Viconia, Alora

    Viconia and Alora go beyond the human limits of dexterity - these are girls who always land on their feet. I actually imagine Alora as being very feline, squeezing through the narrowest gaps in gates to rob places. Despite being a cleric (often consigned to heavy plate mail), in the Underdark Viconia would probably have grown up wearing lightweight, unrestrictive chainmail, letting her develop dextrous skills. In addition to -4AC they both get +3 to hit rolls with ranged weapons.

    Hmm. Limber. And chainmail bikini?

    On a more serious (and hopefully more mature) note, when I play thieves, I do try to max out dex. this isn't a power-gamer type thing, but more a concept design (flaw?). I just like to imagine that they are fleet of foot and light fingered of touch, that they are the definition of agility and grace, the way any good thief should be.

    And my Charname will always use the tomes (plus Lum the Mad's machine) to further their primary stat regardless of the actual mechanical benefit to themselves. The other tomes? not so much, but primary stat? Absolutely!

    As far as stacking potions? I don't do it much myself, but I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing, and it gets some good results. In both games you end up with so much excess money, why NOT spend it on potions in this manner? What are you really losing being a two fisted drinker? And there are times when that extra AC really will make a difference.

  • LoubLoub Member Posts: 471
    @the_spyder‌
    The rulebooks describe Drow females exposing as much skin as possible so as to advertise they are so magically talented they don't NEED any armor to defend themselves. So much that the most powerful females walk around in nothing more than a few piercings with bejeweled tassels and (for special occasions) precious jewels glued to their skin.
    It should be quite a sight walking through the streets of Menzoberranzan watching those dark beauties wander through the city in their lecticae carried by their slaves... Of course, I imagine they would cut the head of any male who stopped to admire them in such manner, unless they were attention whores or the rare chaotic neutral priestess of Lolth (which do exist, at least on paper).
    Maybe it's just me, but of the two drow women I played in PnP, both were portrayed as "sassy black women" and the only sane people in the party (one was a Neutral Evil Sylvan Sorceress, but ascended to Neutral Good after the third session or so, while the other was a Chaotic Good Magician - both were in the Pathfinder rule system, obviously), which is incredibly unlike the depiction of Drow in the fluff.
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    edited April 2014
    Base Dex is fairly important for BG, but becomes less relevant in BG2.

    The low levels in BG means you have fewer castings of physical protection spells (Stoneskin/Ironskin/PfMW) if you can even have them, and if you want to be a ranged beast, a good missile attack bonus from Dex is helpful. And when you are starting out, every boost is essential. In BG2, you can memorize multiple copies of physical protection spells, there are more potions that allow Dex boosts, and your base THAC0 can be much better.

    I try to bypass this issue by playing with characters/NPCs who can cast Stoneskin or Ironskin. For NPCs, this typically means Jaheira, Haer'Dalis and the thief/mages. At most, for a full party, I will only play with one character who cannot cast either spell. If there are spells to ward off the worst of the damage taken after getting hit, a 4-point boost to AC is not all that important.

    If you actually look at how hits and misses are rolled in BG, you will realize that even a 4-point bonus to AC is actually quite small as you progress in BG2, and when the 4-point bonus (or 1-point, 2-point or 3-point bonus, depending on base Dex) matters, just drink a Potion of Agility and you will be right. I will go so far as to say that unless you are going for high-AC builds, Dex need not matter. The mathematics of combat will not lie.
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    All-around, I consider dex to be the second most important stat, behind charisma. Both of these stats are the only two that really benefit a character to have high, or at least a CHARNAME. And I'm going to stop you right there, There's no point in arguing with me. I have a thing for charisma.
    Back on topic, I play elves almost exclusively(I'm disappointed in me to) and I always have 19 dex, and 18 cha. It less of a powergamey thing and more of a role plaything, I find the idea of clumsy, unattractive and unfriendly to be un appealing, especially to play.
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,580
    dustbubsy said:


    10: Edwin, Anomen

    Again, Anomen is fighting in plate mail most of the time. I'm not sure what Edwin's excuse is.

    Probably the fact that he's an absolute wuss.


    For me, I think Dext may be the most beneficial stat in the game, since it's arguably the only stat that plays a crucial role in both melee and ranged fighting efficiency.

    For my current playthrough, I tried to RP the creation of a ranger rather than just min/max the stats according to relevance. I ended up creating a character with 14 str, 15 con, and 17 dext. That basically reflects the order of increasing significance that I feel those stats play.
  • thesoloerthesoloer Member Posts: 77
    Does Strength affect the amount of damage your ranged attacks do? Or is that just dexterity?
  • LoubLoub Member Posts: 471
    thesoloer said:

    Does Strength affect the amount of damage your ranged attacks do? Or is that just dexterity?

    With slings or throwing weapons with mêlée components, yes.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,725
    I prefer not getting hit to taking damage so I would always max DEX. I also think the best form of defence is attack so I would rather wear Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise (THACO +1, Damage +2) and get the most from the weapons instead of wasting the slot on Gauntlets of Dexterity.

    Moreover, even late in the game in ToB having a high AC matters. There are some pretty decent melee and ranged enemies there and just 2 points of AC can mean the difference between them having a 5% or 15% chance to hit your character.

    Also, it worth mentioning that a 9 (or less) Dex thief is given some negative skills.
  • thesoloerthesoloer Member Posts: 77
    Would drinking Potions of Mindfocusing to get my DEX to 24 increase the amount of damage my ranged attacks do?
  • LoubLoub Member Posts: 471
    thesoloer said:

    Would drinking Potions of Mindfocusing to get my DEX to 24 increase the amount of damage my ranged attacks do?

    No. Dexterity doesn't increase ranged damage, only THAC0, and it will do just that.
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    edited April 2014
    thesoloer said:

    Would drinking Potions of Mindfocusing to get my DEX to 24 increase the amount of damage my ranged attacks do?

    Well, strictly speaking, no. In practice, possible.

    Before the other experienced players crucify me for a heretical statement, I'll explain myself.

    Dexterity does not directly increase missile weapon damage. But it improves your THAC0. If your THAC0 is not strong enough to hit enemies consistently, improved THAC0 will help you hit more often, and this will translate into damage.

    To put it in perspective, directly increasing missile damage is like getting a job that pays more. Better THAC0 is working at a second job on top of the first one.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited April 2014
    bengoshi said:

    I prefer not getting hit to taking damage so I would always max DEX. I also think the best form of defence is attack so I would rather wear Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise (THACO +1, Damage +2) and get the most from the weapons instead of wasting the slot on Gauntlets of Dexterity.

    Moreover, even late in the game in ToB having a high AC matters. There are some pretty decent melee and ranged enemies there and just 2 points of AC can mean the difference between them having a 5% or 15% chance to hit your character.

    Also, it worth mentioning that a 9 (or less) Dex thief is given some negative skills.

    I agree with what you say other than the best form of defense is to attack.

    You'll deal 2 more damage with those gauntlets.

    The golem will hit you for 25+ damage every time it hits.

    Doesn't take a mathematician to see how much more useful those 4 AC will be than that 2 damage.

    I guess it depends on several factors, what your AC is from the start, who you're fighting etc.

    Going from -8 to -12 AC isn't that big.

    Going from 1 AC to -3 is critical.

    [Edited] : Not to mention we can see with the mage/sorcerer that the best type of defense is actually to protect yourself, as they are the most powerful classes in the game because they can make themselves very hard to hit or even immune to things.
    Post edited by SionIV on
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited April 2014
    jacobtan said:

    @SionIV‌

    I agree with your conclusion that mages/sorcerers are excellent at defending themselves and the caveats you mentioned about what your current AC is and who you are fighting, but to be fair to @bengoshi‌, your numbers are somewhat off. I add a point for reference.

    Consider a fire giant with Base THAC0 at 0, not counting strength and weapon bonuses:

    Against AC 1, modified THAC0-AC value is 0-1 = -1. Hence fire giant always hits on 1d20 attack roll except on critical miss.

    Against AC -3, modified THAC0-AC value is 0-(-3)=3. Hence fire giant hits on a 3 or better. Modify it by the giant's strength and weapon bonuses and he will again always hit on 1d20 attack roll except on critical miss.

    In this case, the -4 AC bonus is useless. It does nothing at all.

    Using the same principle, against AC -8, modified THAC0-AC value is 0-(-8)=8. Fire giant hits on a 8 or better (65%). But against AC -12, fire giant hits on 12 or better (45%).

    To some players, this may not be good enough protection in exchange for the offense power provided by the gauntlets.

    Since the -4 AC bonus is inconsistent in its value in protecting the character, it may not be unreasonable for a player to give up on it altogether and focus on offense, especially ranged offense. If the character is some form of Fighter/Mage, Ranger/Cleric or Fighter/Druid, with access to Stoneskin or Ironskin, it is actually more profitable to give up on the AC and use spell protections instead.

    And yes, I am trained as a mathematician/statistician, even though it was many years ago :)

    If i may say so you have a very poor example, i was obviously talking about BG1 or early amn, not a fire giant.

    The difference between AC 1 and AC -3 in BG1 is huge. Much better choice than +2 damage and +1 thac0. But if you got -8 AC in BG1 while you do gain -12 with the gauntlets of dexterity they aren't needed as much, and here i might actually pick the +2 Thac0 +1 damage instead. But this means already having an AC of -8 in BG1.

    If you're up against a fire giant we're talking about completely different AC. -8 and -12 would mean that he would have to roll 4 higher to hit you. While if we look at -20 and -24 it really doesn't make that much of a difference.

    And if we do follow the "Offense is the best defense" then you would need a pair of gloves with Thac0 +4 to replace the Gauntlets of Dexterity. While the damage is nice it's the Thac0 and AC that makes the difference here, as it's the difference between getting hit for 20 damage and actually taking a hit for 20 damage.

    And i have noticed your skills when it comes to mathematics in earlier threads, which i have to say are very insightful and entertaining to read as well :)
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