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Regarding Imoen's Biography

sersafirsersafir Member Posts: 126
I'm not sure if this is discussed much, but what's up with this? Found here http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Imoen

BG1:" When asked about her past, Imoen slaps your shoulder playfully. She says that you of all people should know, seeing as how you grew up together. Indeed, some of your fondest memories are of meeting this sprightly young lass. She apparently came to Candlekeep much as you did, though 10 years later in life, and she spent much more time with the gruff Winthrop than Gorion, "Puffguts" she would call him, much to the old innkeep's dismay. She seems the eternal child, and is quite content to play the part of little sister, though you are both of comparative ages. You can tell by her hearty smile that she will always be willing to travel with you, no matter what path you take. "

BG2:"Imoen chuckles when you ask her about her past, assuming you are just trying to keep her mind on happier times and places. She indulges you, and certainly does cheer up when speaking of how you spent your youths together in Candlekeep. She arrived there the same as you, in the company of your foster father Gorion, but despite this similarity she grew up much more carefree than you did. Indeed, her lighthearted outlook has long kept her immune to the hardships of the world, though the dark confines and horrors of your current location have definitely taken their toll."

-AREA-
I bolded what seems odd to me, You are not constantly put into dark areas whenever you read her bio. Maybe it would be better to have said, "though the dark confines and horrors of Irenicus's dungeon have definitely taken their toll."

-AGE-
If she came to Candlekeep the same as you, that means she didn't come 10 years later? Or if it's only implying 'same as you' as in 'from a different area' what was Imoen doing those 10 years? I mean, I know the ages are supposedly "comparative" but in BG2 Imoen calls you "little brother/sister" in one of her talks (it's a voiced dialogue, I don't remember where it was.) Is MC 10 years older or what exactly made her unable to remember or be sacrificed?

-PLOT-
Then there's a huge issue of her being bhaalspawn. Think about it. Gorion wanted to take you out of Candlekeep to keep you safe by delivering you to Jaheria and Khalid. But he left Imoen behind and didn't bother leaving her with any indication of her taint. This means Gorion planned to sacrifice Imoen so you could escape? It seems to be implied he knew since he brought her.

I'm pretty confused here.
Post edited by sersafir on

Comments

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Maybe Gorion was not sure if Imoen was a Bhaalspawn or not, he only had his suspicions, but Imoen showed no symptoms of the taint until ToB anyway. She was special in that case. Charname on the other hand, well Gorion had more proof that he was a bhaalspawn, he saved the charname from a priestess of Bhaal who was about to sacrifice him (she was his own mother, to be more precise) so it was a sure thing he was a bhaalspawn. Plus he might have shown the symptoms of the taint (strange dreams, minor magical occurences, etc) during his childhood and youth, it is a well known fact that taint is strong in charname, that he is special even among other Bhaalspawn.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Imoen was an afterthought in the first game and was supposed to die in the sequel. I never pay much attention to her.
  • sersafirsersafir Member Posts: 126
    edited May 2014
    @lunar Thing is, I'm pretty sure Sarevok knows Imoen's a child of Bhaal straight from the banter between the two in ToB and it seems Irenicus found it out very quickly even before these signs. I think judging by this, it's a safe bet that Gorion knew.

    @jackjack‌ Well, assuming it was a plot hole they just overlooked why couldn't it be fixed in Enhanced Edition?
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,586
    sersafir said:


    -PLOT-
    Then there's a huge issue of her being bhaalspawn. Think about it. Gorion wanted to take you out of Candlekeep to keep you safe by delivering you to Jaheria and Khalid. But he left Imoen behind and didn't bother leaving her with any indication of her taint. This means Gorion planned to sacrifice Imoen so you could escape? It seems to be implied he knew since he brought her.

    IMO, this is the biggest of numerous plotholes that were created by the "Surprise! Imoen is your sister!" reveal. There's also the fact that Sarevok was only after you and you alone (as the Chapt. 1 intro movie clearly states) despite the fact that another Bhaalspawn was also lurking in the city just in front of him.

    When I raised this same issue recently in another thread, someone else said that the game said somewhere that Gorion didn't actually know that Imoen was your sister/fellow Bhaalspawn when he brought her there - but that would then raise the question of why he brought her there.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    One word: Plotholes :/

    And you are using a banned icon which is similar to my 1st april joke :/
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited May 2014
    To be honest its been too long since I've had Imoen and Sarevok in a group. I found this online however. What specific banter are you referencing between the two?



    (If it’s Imoen who donates a piece of her soul to bring him back to life.)
    Imoen: So ... Sarevok. You’ve had an itty-bitty piece of my soul in there for quite a while now. What it’s been like?
    Sarevok: (sigh) Well other than a slight obsession with my weight and the resurgence of a few pimples, it’s been simply grand. Now leave me be, girl.
    Imoen: No, I’m serious. Does the fact that you have a little piece of me inside you make any difference at all? Tell me ... you owe me that much.
    Sarevok: What do you wish to know, girl? What are you curious about? Perhaps you would be interested to know that I can feel the knives of Irenicus, slicing into my skin, torturing me. I can feel his hands and his breath, I *know* what he did to you, girl ...
    Imoen: Al-alright, stop ... I wasn’t really serious ...
    Sarevok: How about the agony you felt as your soul was ripped from you? The despair at being left only with the cold voices of your tainted heart, discovering what was inside you all along? How about the hurt you keep deep down within, wondering if you weren’t good enough for Gorion? How about the loneliness ... the unrequited longing you -
    Imoen: Stop! Enough ... I won’t bother you, Sarevok, just -
    (If Sarevok’s still evil)
    Sarevok: You are pathetic, girl. When the true Bhaalspawn come to claim your essence, I hope you bring yourself not to flop onto your back at the first sign of danger!
    Imoen: I ... I was enough to help kill you once, Sarevok! And I’ll stand by (CHARNAME) to the end, just you wait. It was ... obviously a mistake to talk to you. Excuse me.
    (If Sarevok changed alignment)
    Sarevok: I feel many things, Imoen. And I know that you are stronger than you think you are.
    Imoen: I ... thanks, Sarevok. I guess. Um ... excuse me ...

    Imoen: What ... what was it like to die, Sarevok? Seeing as you’ve been through the experience repeatedly I can’t help but wonder if you’ve developed some perspective on it.
    Sarevok: Do you intend for me to believe that a weakling such as yourself has never needed to be revived by a priest? Bah! I imagine this group has obtained a discount at the temple of Helm for you, dear sister.
    Imoen: Yeah, but that’s different. That’s just some blackness and then like, ‘oops, here you go!’ I don’t think that I’ve ever been really, really dead like you have.
    Sarevok: Keep prodding me and that could quickly change.
    Imoen: Oh, you don’t fool me. I’m an archmage after all ... and you’re nothing but bluster. Tell me what I want to know!
    Sarevok: The knowledge would do you no good, now, dear sister. And by the time you need it, it will be too late. Now leave me be ... your constant chirruping is giving me a headache.



    I also looked over all of Sarevok's lines in ToB in Near Infinity and it didn't seem like he knew about Imoen (at least back then).
  • ApocryphaApocrypha Member Posts: 105
    I just ignore plotholes like that. I personally think the first version is correct; she was a Bhaalspawn babe who slipped the priestess's radar and spent a couple years on her own in the streets before turning up in Candlekeep. Gorion had no definite proof she was a Bhaalspawn, and CHARNAME would probably need a trusted companion to keep them from going evil, so she was allowed to stay. When he fled, he still had no clue she was a Bhaalspawn and didn't want to endanger CHARNAME's best friend, so he left her.

    As for how Sarevok and Irenicus found out, I'm not sure. Irenicus I can probably write off as noticing that Imoen was becoming more....mmm, fascinated by death the more he tortured her/others around her, guessed she was a Bhaalspawn, and started focusing on her in an attempt to see if he was right. Sarevok? Maybe he could somehow sense the Taint in her, but only in TOB, since that was when it had awoken.
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    I find it's best not to think about this too much, because SoA and ToB retconned everything from BG1. If sources from the game conflict consciously in my mind during a run, I give priority to what they wrote in BG2, and dismiss or mentally rewrite the letters from BG1.

    In Imoen's bios, "same as you" probably just means "adopted". You were fostered by Gorion, she by Winthrop. You remember her being 10 years old when she showed up in Candlekeep. You were probably 11 or 12 at the time. ("Stop calling me 'child', I'm not that much younger than you!")

    If Gorion knew Imoen was Bhaalspawn, he probably kept it a very strict secret. The attempt to split the two of you up just before he died would have been done for similar reasons as when Obi-Wan and Yoda decided to split up Luke and Leia and to keep their origins a secret from both the public, their foster families, and from each other - increased safety and better chance for at least one of them to survive. I think a lot of the BG writing was inspired by the Star Wars saga.

    It's hard to write anything original in the shadows of Star Wars and Lord of the Rings - everything gets compared to those two. :)
  • sersafirsersafir Member Posts: 126
    elminster said:

    To be honest its been too long since I've had Imoen and Sarevok in a group. I found this online however. What specific banter are you referencing between the two?

    I also looked over all of Sarevok's lines in ToB in Near Infinity and it didn't seem like he knew about Imoen (at least back then).

    Well, when you first revive him you have the option as to whether or not to give a fraction of your soul or Imoen's soul. It doesn't seem to come to him as a surprise

    @SharGuidesMyHand‌ That would be an abnormal coincidence too.

    @Apocrypha‌ What seems weird though is how she slipped past the priestesses when she was a baby, or why no one seemed to know of her origin. Like you mention, if Gorion didn't know, why did he bother bringing her? I know her int implies borderline genius, but still, she's a theif...

    @Belgarath‌ Yeah, I think starwars is surprisingly similar to BG. I know with "canon" info things tend to give precedence to the latest info.
  • ApocryphaApocrypha Member Posts: 105
    @sersafir: The headcanon I have is that Imoen's mom actually loved her daughter and decided she'd rather run than sacrifice her to Bhaal. She died when Immy was four-ish, Immy learns to look after herself on the streets until she eventually gets picked up by an adventuring Winthrop, who brings her with him on his travels until they settle down in Candlekeep.
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,586
    Apocrypha said:

    @sersafir: The headcanon I have is that Imoen's mom actually loved her daughter and decided she'd rather run than sacrifice her to Bhaal. She died when Immy was four-ish, Immy learns to look after herself on the streets until she eventually gets picked up by an adventuring Winthrop, who brings her with him on his travels until they settle down in Candlekeep.

    I thought it was stated somewhere (perhaps during the opening video, or initial dialogue with Imoen at the start of SoA) that she was brought to Candlekeep by Gorion, and then gravitated toward Winthrop because she had an interest in learning thieving skills.
  • ApocryphaApocrypha Member Posts: 105

    Apocrypha said:

    @sersafir: The headcanon I have is that Imoen's mom actually loved her daughter and decided she'd rather run than sacrifice her to Bhaal. She died when Immy was four-ish, Immy learns to look after herself on the streets until she eventually gets picked up by an adventuring Winthrop, who brings her with him on his travels until they settle down in Candlekeep.

    I thought it was stated somewhere (perhaps during the opening video, or initial dialogue with Imoen at the start of SoA) that she was brought to Candlekeep by Gorion, and then gravitated toward Winthrop because she had an interest in learning thieving skills.
    It stated that in the biography of SoA. Like I said, that contradicts what was said in the first game. I just picked one of them to believe--the first--and went with it, adding in my headcanon when it came to me.

  • wuthering20wuthering20 Member Posts: 39
    Since there were no bounty hunters targeting Imoen in BG1, I assume Sarevok hadn't known this fact then. Perhaps the Harpers learned somewhere that someone was putting a price on the Bhaalspawn raised up by Gorion, so they judged that it was Charname's heritage being discovered (as he/she certainly showed more signs of taint than Imoen did) and made this decision. As for how Sarevok knew this in TOB...well, he seemed learn many things in his death.
    I found it hard to believe the "Imoen being a Bhaalspawn" idea was only thought up in making SOA. This role was just made for it.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited May 2014
    sersafir said:

    Well, when you first revive him you have the option as to whether or not to give a fraction of your soul or Imoen's soul. It doesn't seem to come to him as a surprise

    Good point. Still he never once mentions Imoen in any of the bounty notices and he doesn't mention her in his diary (and his knowledge of Gorions plans seems pretty limited). If he knew Imoen was a Bhaalspawn wouldn't he have at least sent bounty hunters after her in case she wasn't with charname?

    Edit: looks like wuthering20 already made a few of my points :)
    Post edited by elminster on
  • sersafirsersafir Member Posts: 126
    edited May 2014

    Since there were no bounty hunters targeting Imoen in BG1, I assume Sarevok hadn't known this fact then. Perhaps the Harpers learned somewhere that someone was putting a price on the Bhaalspawn raised up by Gorion, so they judged that it was Charname's heritage being discovered (as he/she certainly showed more signs of taint than Imoen did) and made this decision. As for how Sarevok knew this in TOB...well, he seemed learn many things in his death.
    I found it hard to believe the "Imoen being a Bhaalspawn" idea was only thought up in making SOA. This role was just made for it.

    Sorry for the late post, but I thought I'd add something here:

    I read somewhere Imoen was literally a last minute addition in BG1 when they found mages just started walking around without Imoen (who was barely in the game files as a practice character) got killed very quickly by wandering gibberling blue things. They added a couple lines of dialogue and decided to have her help along. As to why they gave her such great stats, I don't know.

    But I'm pretty sure when SoA popped by they werent sure what to do with her. I think she was a bhaalspawn last minute because literally NO ONE, even seemingly Gorion and Sarevok, suspects Imoen of any taint, and she shows no signs whatsoever, and as noted before, the bounty hunters aren't after Imoen. Don't get me wrong, it's an interesting twist, but it messes with the canon way too much for me to suspect they thought it out.

    I'm also a little curious about Sarevok's knowledge of death...
    Post edited by sersafir on
  • SapphireIce101SapphireIce101 Member Posts: 866
    Imoen was a last minute addition in BG1. In fact, I think Imoen was supposed to be a whole other character.

    Also, in BG2, Imoen was supposed to get killed off, and this explains why she has little to no dialogue in ToB. The only reason Imoen didn't get killed off was because she was a huge fan-favorite, and in ToB she kind of suffered for it mostly because she had like no dialogue. Then, there was a favorite mod that came out, and made Imoen awesome. No, I'm not talking about the Imoen Romance.

    Off-topic, but I remember when Bioware used the 'Fan-favorite' logic again in Dragon Age: Origins - Awakening. Except, you know, Oghren wasn't really a 'fan-favorite'. However, since he's voiced by Steve Blum, Oghren will always be known as Dwarf Spike Spiegel. This is irrelevant to the Imoen conversation though.
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