Dexterity and Armor Class

Fighting_Ferret

Isn't there supposed to be a limit on how much dexterity benefits your armor class for each armor type? Currently a fighter with 18 gets the full dexterity bonus to their AR even when wearing full plate; however, a thief cannot use thieving skills in any armor greater than studded leather (except for stealth skills, which makes no sense). Caster (except for divine cannot cast while wearing armor, which makes sense.

Seems like the system was trying to be implemented, but didn't really succeed. Any plans to update this?

kilroy_was_here

Blame 2e. In 3e they introduced several mechanics that makes those cases make more sense:

-max dex bonus: If you're wearing armor, there is a limit to how much of an AC bonus you can get from your dex. A fighter in full plate would be able to get no dex bonus at all. Any penalties however still apply in full.
-armor check penalties: Thieves in heavy armor can still stealth, but at a hefty penalty to their die roll. This also applies to similar skills that would be inhibited, like climbing and swimming, and not just to thieves but all classes.
-arcane failure chance: Arcane casters are no longer totally prohibited from casting when wearing armor, they just have a chance of the spell failing depending on the class of the armor (bards have no failure chance for light armor).

What we are stuck with is a relic from the version of D&D they used to make BG. In newer D&D based games like NWN 1 and 2 things work more 'realistically' as I have described.

Elemental_Evil

This is definitely a difference between the 2ed AD&D and 3/3.5 ed rulesets but as far as one making more sense than the other, I just don't know. I mean someone with an 18 dexiterity in plate mail is going to be harder to hit than someone with a 10 dexterity in plate mail. Just my two cents. I like the armor check penalties and arcane failure chance but if they really wanted it to be more realistic they would have given armor a flat Damage Reduction that cannot be bypassed.

Dee

There are variants that do that in 3.5e. But they don't work very efficiently.

I think I read somewhere about a proposed houserule that would impose a penalty to your Dexterity while wearing heavy armor. So a high dexterity would be more useful than a low dexterity, but not as useful as if you weren't wearing armor at all.

immagikman

Id be VERY hesitent to use the word "Realistic" when talking about the rules for weapons and armor in ANY version of AD&D. Mages were prevented from wearing metalic armor not because of the need for nimble dextrous moves but due to metal interfering with the flow of energy. As for Dexterity having no play in platemail thats silly too, as a clumsy person in Plate is going to be more vulnerable than a dextrous person in plate. All those "rules" are just simplifications and genralizations.

Dee

Actually, they're more balancing moves than anything. Wizards don't wear armor because if they could wear armor, they would be too powerful. Thieves can't wear armor while using thieving skills because if they could, they would be too powerful. High-dexterity characters in armor don't get as much benefit as high-dexterity characters out of armor because if they did, there would be no niche for the lightly-armored warrior.

Clerics can wear armor while casting spells because their spells are less powerful (in general).

It's all a balancing act. The justification and rationalization comes later.

Elemental_Evil

Yeah, the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana/Arcanum (not sure which its called right now) had rules for damage reduction for heavier armors. But back to the OP, I believe you are confusing the 3/3.5 edition rules which are in NWN and NWN2.

Quartz

Fighting_Ferret said:

Isn't there supposed to be a limit on how much dexterity benefits your armor class for each armor type? Currently a fighter with 18 gets the full dexterity bonus to their AR even when wearing full plate; however, a thief cannot use thieving skills in any armor greater than studded leather (except for stealth skills, which makes no sense). Caster (except for divine cannot cast while wearing armor, which makes sense.

Seems like the system was trying to be implemented, but didn't really succeed. Any plans to update this?

Nah, that's not going to be updated, I can almost guarantee it. The armor system as it is in Baldur's Gate is loyal to the 2e AD&D ruleset, just like the rest of the game. They wouldn't randomly bring in a 3e armor system into this game that they are vowing to keep in 2e.

fighter_mage_thief

When you think about it, there are a lot of things wrong with the armor system, but it's fun as is I think. For example, I can envision a HUGE difference between dodging a sword swipe from a fire giant, as opposed to blocking the attack, or having his attack not penetrate armor. If a human fighter blocks the attack with his shield, the fighter might go flying, even though he didn't get hit by the blade. If it doesn't penetrate the fighter's armor, the fighter might still go flying too. The fighter isn't cleaved in two, but rather goes flying baseball-style. And this could cause serious bludgeoning damage, upon impact and upon landing!

Also, consider the tower shield. In NWN (3rd ed), it's 3 AC. In 3.5, I believe it's 4 AC with a -2 AB deduction. In the BG series, its equivalent, the great shield, is only -1 AC, with an additional -2 vs missiles. Full Plate in NWN (3rd ed) is 8 AC with +1 AC from dex max. In BG it's 1 AC with -4 vs slashing and -3 vs piercing, I believe, which in 3rd ed translates into 13 AC vs slashing, 12 AC vs piercing, and 9 AC vs bludgeoning, plus the complete dex modifier. Normal plate mail in BG was 3 AC and -3 vs slashing, i.e. 10 AC vs slashing, 7 AC vs all others. Saving throws are WAY different in 2nd ed too. Wear a helmet in 2nd ed, and you don't get crit. The higher AC, immunit to crits from a helm, advanced weapon mastery, and the 18/xx+ strength mechanics really define the fighter in 2nd ed. 3rd ed fighter felt a lot weaker from my experience, especially considering every other class got an AB boost. cleric goes from 2 thaco every 3 levels to 3 AB every 4 levels. The rogue got a huge jump, from 1 AB every 2nd level to 3 AB every 4 levels. The armor/dex AC equalizes in 3rd ed at roughly 7 to 9 (incoporating dex), while the rogue and wizard get substantial increases in AB. I think a 2nd ed experience will be refreshing.

immagikman

Bludgeoning damage is what you are going for against someone in platemail....in the 80's there were several game systems that took armor type and damage type into account. Big heavy maces against plate, sharp edged weapons against light non-metalic armors Piercing was generally good against all armors.

LadyRhian

Yeah. Full Plate and Field Plate tend to be better against clubs and such because the armor tends to spread out the impact. On the other hand, a mace will deform the armor. In Real Life, if you get hit in the head with a mace, even in a helmet, you are dead. Maces were meant to crush armor. Piercing weapons do well against all armors because they go through the cracks and joints in the armor. Chain mail also doesn't do well against bludgeoning weapons because the links that make it up get driven into the wound (a not fun experience, from what I have seen in the SCA, even with padding underneath- I've seen hand-size bruises after a fight with swords made of balsa wood logs in SCA). And leather is not like a leather coat (I've seen this a lot, so bear with me if you know this), it's leather boiled in oil and dried on a form so that it's stiff, like boards. Studded leather is more like motorcycle jacket leather, with metal studs in it, of course.