Skip to content

Let's Talk About Charisma

dustbubsydustbubsy Member Posts: 249
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
Welcome one and all to the final part of the “Let’s Talk About” series! Which means it’s time to talk about Charisma. Like Wisdom, it’s a little hard to define, but the main arguments seem to center around whether it is pure physical attractiveness, persuasion and force of personality, or some combination of the two. Furthemore the inclusion of Sorcerors put forward the idea that Charisma is a measure of your mental offensive potential.
In Baldur’s Gate, Charisma adds or subtracts from your reaction roll, which determines what NPCs think of you. Such as a Charname with 18CHA getting a dagger +1 from Fuller, and 20gp from Hull, in the Prologue.

CHARISMA SCORES

4: Wilson

For Wilson this isn’t that bad, seeing as we have humanoids with 6 Charisma. Still, a -7 reaction adjustment is what he gets. Guess people just find him unbearable.

6: Osprey, Quayle

I find it hilarious that Osprey has such abyssmal charisma, seeing as she’s a female, Lawful Good Half-Elf. Her portrait is very pleasing, so she must just have a horrendous personality. She’s also a mage/cleric with 16 strength and 9 dexterity... go figure. Quayle is a lot easier to explain: he’s clearly obnoxious, with no leadership qualities whatsoever, and Dynaheir implies he doesn’t bathe.

7: Korgan

Dwarves get a Charisma penalty, “because they are a solitary people, tending toward distrust of outsiders and other races” (2nd Ed manual). Korgan of course is unpredictable, bloodthirsty and crude, so it is unlikely anyone would respond favourably toward him. Ironically he does become a leader of sorts in his epilogue.

8: Arkanis, Kagain, Kivan

Two more dwarves here. Kagain says himself he doesn’t have any friends, and cares only for gold. Kivan is a different matter, seeing as he’s a popular NPC in fanart circles and modding communities. Explaining his low charisma, I see him as being unconcerned with other people, all the more so after his wife died. He’s probably very grimy from being out in the wilderness tracking for long periods, and doesn’t have much diplomacy – for example, telling Alora to shut up, and attacking Viconia.

9: Deder, Montaron, Khalid, Minsc, Tiax

9 Charisma is the highest score you still receive a negative reaction adjustment at, though it’s just -1. These characters are almost average, but their flaws – Montaron’s unfriendlyness, Khalid’s lack of self confidence, Minsc and Tiax’s madness – make people just a little mistrusting. In my mind the reason Minsc’s Cha isn’t much lower is that he can be inspiring if you overlook his mental deficiencies. Tiax I guess is confident in himself, if nothing else.

10: Xzar, Edwin, Yeslick, Alora, Jan, Valygar

The average, though these characters’ flaws stop them from having Charisma that could endear them in the eyes of the common man (no positive reaction adjustment until 13CHA). Xzar and Edwin are unpleasant, Yeslick is a dwarf, Alora and Jan are small and annoying, and Valygar is another loner character. Most of them avoid a negative modifier through diplomacy, in my opinion – keeping themselves civil (think Xzar and Edwin’s first speeches). Yeslick and Valygar are good people as well, while Alora is cute and Jan can outsmart people, which involves charisma as well as intelligence.

11: Shar-Teel, Neera

Perhaps looks play a part in bumping up these NPCs’ scores.

12: Mordaine, Dynaheir

I’m a little suprised Dynaheir isn’t higher since she’s a leader in her country.

13: Branwen, Skie, Anomen, Nalia

OK, here begin the truly charismatic NPCs. Three of these are nobility, and that’s got to be a positive, since they’d have more confidence. However, Skie isn’t a leader, and Nalia isn’t when you first meet her either. Anomen has an abrasive personality. So they’re charismatic, but only just.

14: Canderous, Viconia, Yoshimo, Aerie, Mazzy, Rasaad, Clara

Almost all of these NPCs are pleasant and persuasive, perhaps not all leadership material but they’d do in a pinch. Since the dwarves had such low scores, I think it’s safe to assume that Charisma scores take into account the race prejudice of the human majority – in that case, Viconia and Mazzy would be higher if they weren’t of races that are seen as evil and cute respectively.

15: Jaheira, Garrick, Faldorn, Cernd, Sarevok

The idea of druids being charismatic always stumps me – to animals yes, but people? Most are counter-cultural by their very nature, and just think what the people of Trademeet thought of Cernd. Just goes to show there *must* be different permutations of charisma.

16: Imoen, Xan, Coran, Eldoth, Haer'Dalis, Dorn, Baeloth

A motely crew here, who can all get a 5% discount at stores by using thier impressive charm. Not surprising to see silver-tongued Coran, Eldoth and Haer’Dalis here, but the others raise a few eyebrows. Imoen I can see I guess, but Xan seems too much of a downer to inspire people and Dorn too terrifying. Of course, intimidation is a charisma based skill, so maybe Dorn’s charisma is reflecting that. In civilised worlds his heritage holds him back, but I could see him raising an army of demi-humans quite easily – he’d probably even have the brains to hide behind a puppet ogre chieftan. By the same token maybe among their people Xan and Baeloth are highly respected, and this carries into their bearing even when away from their homelands.

17: Ajantis, Safana

Despite his youth Ajantis commands a very respectable score, which I believe shows how respected paladins are in civilised lands. Their training in courtly behaviour, commanding knights and reputation of moral uprightness...and that shiny shiny armour, make them heroic figures. Meanwhile Safana is the ultimate temptress, so it’s no suprise to see her up here.

18: Keldorn, Hexxat

Again, a knight and a temptress. Keldorn is not only a knight, he’s a veteran knight, and a minor celebrity in Athkathla, granting him a perfect score. And vampires have that ever-annoying supernatural charm, so there’s that.


Phew. Thanks so much for reading these threads, and "liking" them. I hope they were interesting. I’m not sure of any questions to ask, beyond the usual what score do you give your Charname? Personally, I have OCD about getting the dagger +1, so I often go for 18 against my better judgement.

Comments

  • FinaLfrontFinaLfront Member Posts: 260
    I think Xan's score is well justified. There's a reason I keep taking him on my runs.

    The way I see it, there's an annoying way to be pessimistic, and there's a funny way. I see Xan being the funny way.

    Plus he has that cool sword
  • dustbubsydustbubsy Member Posts: 249
    the_spyder said:



    dustbubsy said:

    10: Xzar, Edwin, Yeslick, Alora, Jan, Valygar

    The average, though these characters’ flaws stop them from having Charisma that could endear them in the eyes of the common man (no positive reaction adjustment until 13CHA). Xzar and Edwin are unpleasant, Yeslick is a dwarf, Alora and Jan are small and annoying, and Valygar is another loner character. Most of them avoid a negative modifier through diplomacy, in my opinion – keeping
    themselves civil (think Xzar and Edwin’s first speeches). Yeslick and Valygar are good people as well, while Alora is cute and Jan can outsmart people, which involves charisma as well as intelligence.

    I got nothing. Except, how does outsmarting take charisma?
    Bluff is charisma based, isn't it? That's the kind of outsmarting I mean.
    the_spyder said:



    dustbubsy said:

    15: Jaheira, Garrick, Faldorn, Cernd, Sarevok

    The idea of druids being charismatic always stumps me – to animals yes, but people? Most are counter-cultural by their very nature, and just think what the people of Trademeet thought of Cernd. Just goes to show there *must* be different permutations of charisma.

    Wait, what? What does one’s profession (or vocation if you want to go there) have to do with your ability to lead or appear charismatic? Just because they are more at home in nature doesn’t mean that they are ugly or culturally inept. Check out the 60s and all of the ‘back to nature’ crowd. Check out grunge bands today. Or what was that horrible TV show? Men in trees? Women loved that show.

    Yes, I agree. I was overstating the opinions of a majority in the calculation of charisma, which makes little sense. I kept imagining the commoner man-on-the-street, who likes Paladins cause their armour is shiny and they help people, hates drow and mistrusts half-orcs, that sort of thing. I still think that that person might well mistrust druids as well, because of their sometimes extreme views, which can conflict with woodcutters, farmers, land-owners... you know, the prevailing order. But you're right, druids can be charismatic in themselves.

    A better question would be, why do druids need charisma?
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Why does anyone need charisma? And why should they have to do without?

    Actually, the ancient Celtic Druids were the religious leaders, much in the same way that Clerics and the priesthood were for Christianity. They held significant power and authority within their communities and were leaders in their own right.

    I think a lot of people confuse druids with the type of nature activists that chain themselves to trees. The two couldn't be more different. Druids were not outcast social misfits. They were "The priesthood" but in an area where the dominant religion happened to be different from Christianity.

    When Caesar invaded Gaul, he was mainly looking to suppress a rival religion.

    So, why does a Druid need Charisma? Why do Clerics?
  • dustbubsydustbubsy Member Posts: 249
    edited May 2014
    But clerics don't. Druids have high required charisma, to the extent that druid is one of the hardest classes to dual to and still have respectable stats (needing 17 in wisdom AND charisma, as opposed to just 17 wisdom for clerics).
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2014
    I kept imagining the commoner man-on-the-street, who likes Paladins cause their armour is shiny and they help people
    You can't go spreading religion if people won't even listen to you. Not everyone who joins a religion (or cult) did so because they were brought up to do so.

    Maybe low level (not just XP Level, but position in their order) Clerics and Druids won't have high Charisma, but higher placed Clerics and Druids would have Charisma to convert others to their religion and keep those people under them. Or the ones being sent out to convert the heathens (and not use force as the first option)

    Consider a person who really really hates the drow but has no commanding presence. If he wanted to rally a town to kill a drow lurking around some dark corner, commoners would just say "Go find a soldier", soldiers would say "Go find a group of adventurers", adventurers would say "Sure, but give us a bunch of gold first" then possibly just let the drow go and keep your money.

    On the other hand a Paladin with just the force of his presence (and not even in armor and telling people that he's a Paladin, so basically it's just high CHA at work) could whip a crowd up in a frenzy to go drow hunting.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited May 2014
    dustbubsy said:

    But clerics don't. Druids have high required charisma, to the extent that druid is one of the hardest classes to dual to and still have respectable stats (needing 17 in wisdom AND charisma, as opposed to just 17 wisdom for clerics).

    Who knows? Probably some artifact of the philosophy that CHA is a dump stat and the developers trying to alter that perception? Think about it. STR, DEX and CON are Widely used by all classes. INT and WIS have their own group of classes that need them. CHA is really only useful to Sorcerers and paladins and bards (and Druids). So why not tie it to as many classes, however tangentially, so that there is the appearance of it being needed? But that is merely a guess on my part.

    And Clerics do need CHA. Doesn't it impact their ability to turn undead? Ok, that's kind of a stretch for "Need" but still.
  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    Dorn is making dark pacts with infernal powers, and coming away with a profitable bargain. That says he knows how to play hardball to win, and doubtless blackguards make a point of intimidating those around - to be sure all are suitably in awe of their patron.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited May 2014
    mumumomo said:

    " They were "The priesthood" but in an area where the dominant religion happened to be different from Christianity.

    When Caesar invaded Gaul, he was mainly looking to suppress a rival religion. "

    Going a bit off topic there but :
    - Caesar wars in Gaul took place from 60 to 50 BC. at that time there was no christianity.
    - Caesar motives were mostly political
    - Furthermore, during their conquests the romans were quite tolerant with the gods of the vanquished. It was never a matter of religious war.

    - I never intended to imply that Caesar was invading to prevent the spread of Druidism as a rival to Christianity. I said it was a rival religion. But in reading my statements, I can see how that was easily miss-construed. So, my bad.
    - And in those days, Political almost always meant Religions. People didn't take their morning ablutions without it being about The Gods.
    - The reading I've done on Druidism suggests that it was absolutely a pagan religion and one that the Roman Empire was against.
    - Yes, Caesar was looking to get a few wins under his belt, but he couldn't have gone to the senate and said "I want to win a war. Give me troops for my own selfish ends." It would have had to be "To crush the pagan religions and bring their peoples under Roman rule."

    But potatoe - potaaatoe.
    Post edited by the_spyder on
  • AristilliusAristillius Member Posts: 873
    I wonder what charisma specs Saemon Havarian has. 25?
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Kim Kardashian - minus 32
  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,438
    Aristillius said:

    I wonder what charisma specs Saemon Havarian has. 25?

    According to EE Keeper, he has a 13. Must have some wicked Luck Feats from Complete Scoundrel.
  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    You know, I thought Baeloth had higher CHA. He certainly acts like he thinks he has higher CHA.

    Huh.
  • ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,664
    @Twani‌ I certainly believe his is higher! I mean, who DOESN'T love alliteration?! =D
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,580
    Is Dynaheir really a leader in her land? Her BG1 bio suggests that she's on some sort of ritual to prove herself, like Minsc. She's also rather bossy and arrogant - someone that could rub people the wrong way, so it's not surprising that she'd have mediocre charisma IMO.

    Xan's charisma is required by his specialist class, I believe, just like the druids. Otherwise I'd agree that he should have average-to-low charisma.

    With regard to the druids, remember that Faldorn was eventually able to unite an entire grove to join in her crusade. That's indicative of some manner of charisma, even if it's not a conventional one. Cult leaders (i.e: Jim Jones, David Koresh) may seem like weirdos in normal society but are able to unite large bodies of outcasts and disaffected people to their causes.

    Dorn is a mystery as to why he has such high charisma IMO, since the game clearly states that the reason he tags along with you is because of his inability to communicate with others. Like Korgan, he's also been betrayed by his party, whereas one of the traits of a high charisma score is the ability to keep a party in line.
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,580
    dustbubsy said:

    Personally, I have OCD about getting the dagger +1, so I often go for 18 against my better judgement.

    I do the same, plus I hate it when Hull yells at me. ;-)

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Elrandir said:

    @Twani‌ I certainly believe his is higher! I mean, who DOESN'T love alliteration?! =D

    Maybe he has a rather sizable zit on the end of his nose, thus detracting from his otherwise scintillating repartee.
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited May 2014
    SharGuidesMyHand said:

    Is Dynaheir really a leader in her land? Her BG1 bio suggests that she's on some sort of ritual to prove herself, like Minsc. She's also rather bossy and arrogant - someone that could rub people the wrong way, so it's not surprising that she'd have mediocre charisma IMO.

    Dorn is a mystery as to why he has such high charisma IMO, since the game clearly states that the reason he tags along with you is because of his inability to communicate with others. Like Korgan, he's also been betrayed by his party, whereas one of the traits of a high charisma score is the ability to keep a party in line.

    Dynaheir has the whole noble and lady-like attitude about her. She's clearly the leader of two (Dynaheir/Minsc) and let's not forget that she's a Wychlaran and very confident.

    -"She seems very sure of herself, is possessed with an old-world sensibility" - Her bio. Confidence.
    -"The Witches of Rashemen (also known as Wychlaran, meaning wise old women) are the spiritual leaders of Rashemen, communing with the spirits and guiding the souls of the Rashemi people." - Wychlaran article.

    Dynaheir has good Charisma because she's both confident, has excellent manners and she's a soon-to-be leader among her people.

    And Dorn is a Blackguard. As in, an Antipaladin. As in, a leader, a dark commander.
    His Half-Orc nature is keeping his leading qualities a bit back but he knows how to lead and he's very confident of himself and his powers.

    There's no mystery about it. The Blackguard is the dark mirror opposite of the Paladin in everything. In 3E, it's a PrC made for Fallen Paladins.

    About Druids, all Druids are supposed to prepare to become leaders of their Grove at level 14, ArchDruids. That's where Charisma comes in.

    @the_spyder About clerics, they don't need high charisma in BG. (Not sure about PnP) They're supposed to be militant priests (heavy armor) than just church priests.

    In 3E, Charisma factors into Turn Undead checks. And I like a very good explanation by Dungeons and Dragons Online. If you have low Charisma and try to Turn Undead you might get a "You lack conviction" message.

    Wisdom is the deeper spiritual understanding of your deity and faith. Charisma is conviction.
Sign In or Register to comment.

2024 Overhaul Games, a division of Beamdog. © 2024 Hasbro, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Baldur's Gate, Dungeons & Dragons, D&D, Forgotten Realms, Baldur's Gate, Wizards of the Coast and their logos are trademarks of Wizards of the Coast LLC in the U.S.A. and other countries, and are used with permission. Hasbro and its logo are trademarks of Hasbro, Inc. and are used with permission. © 1998 BioWare Corp. All Rights Reserved. BioWare, the BioWare Infinity Engine and the BioWare logo are trademarks of Bioware Corp. Black Isle Studios and the Black Isle Studios logo are trademarks of Interplay Entertainment Corp. Atari and the Atari logo are trademarks owned by Atari Interactive, Inc. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.