On archery -

Silence

Two questions:

1. Is archery 'overpowered' in BG1?

2. Does archery really compare to melee combat in BG2?

This is perhaps more of a discussion thread than a features request, but I think it's important discussion. By archery I mean bows/crossbows/missile weapons and their use by all classes, not just the archer kit.

sparrow13

I don't know about BG1 but I always found archery a bit underwhelming in BG2 unless I was playing an Archer kit. It might have had more to do with the lack of bows compared to melee weapons, though.

Slings on the other hand were quite useful, because although they lacked the high damage of melee weapons, there were some easy/early to find +4/5 slings that help immensely against mages and dragons.

RedGuard

Never really bothered with archery too much. It never seemed that effective unless I had some really good enchanted bow or arrows (which just weren't anywhere near as plentiful as your normal arrows). I usually stuck those I wanted to make sure I didn't want walking up to an enemy and trying to melee them with bows or some other projectile weapon.

Humanoid_Taifun

I've had to answer the second question so often on the Bioware boards that ... well, I don't know. What happens when you answer a question very often?

In any case:
I don't think archery is overpowered in Baldur's Gate, I think that melee is underpowered, so to speak. With as few HP as everybody is carrying around, the first hit is quite important. Leaving out archery this becomes a gamble that you will not always win. Once you've got a few levels (and HP) under your belt, this changes. A warior with >100HP is not immediately troubled by one or two hits and thus his ability slowly becomes more relevant to the battles outcome than his luck.

In BG2, archery does not usually serve as a good source of damage anymore. There are certain builds that can still put out a whole lot of damage over distance (kensai with throwing axes, ranger/cleric with the Sling of Seeking, archer with Sling of Seeking/Tuigan), but mostly it is employed for different uses. Pelting away stoneskins (since bows have more attacks per round than melee weapons, add elemental arrows to interrupt spells before you're through), dispelling arrows (or missiles with stun/poison effect), interrupting enemy mages, kiting...

Roller12

Melee is fine. Archery is by far the most efficient way to damage mobs in BG1 because it doesnt consume spells. Melee will get them hit, which consumes healing spells and once out of it melee dies. Ranged only uses arrows. The problem has multiple sources, low-level healing is inefficient, lack of regenerating items, and plainly lack of healers. You only get Jaheira and she is not even a full class, and in the "default" party she will remain the only healer in the party and simply cannot outheal incoming damage. Basically you are always running with a healing deficit in bg1.

Jaxx86

Archery is overpowered in BG1 after farming arrows of biting. I'm not sure if they're farmable in BG2, but throwing axes become more preferable in the second game.

Ashiel

I built a party of all archers in BG I. I had my bases covered, honestly. Everything was at least a multiclass "something that can shoot". So like 4 Archery Rangers, 1 fighter/mage, 1 fighter/thief. It was amusing. The mage was the party face (Alegorn's cloak + friends + good charisma), and everyone unloaded arrows into everything. It was awesome. Many battles were won before the enemies had a chance to group. Went through tons of arrows, but that was fine. Heck, arrows were the most common sort of ammo to pick up off your enemies, and they were actually pretty scary to mages and such.

I lacked a dedicated healer, but who cares? Most of the healers were kinda "meh", and arrows being cheap and all, I could stock up on healing potions and scrolls, and the rangers could eventually heal as well. The mage and thief in the group, when not shooting things to death, filled their duties quite efficiently (disarming traps, opening doors, bartering, crowd control, buffs, etc). Dropping HASTE on the whole party was just cruel and unusual. (^_^)

Synergetic

IMO, archery is one of the most OP thing in BG 1.

Not only do you get +1 bows you also get +2 arrows along with a versable arresnal of them.
With the better bows in the game you can get a total THAC0 of + 5 not to mention if you got gautlets of archery and wep profencies. You -WILL- hit almost every single time.

Acid arrows = THACO: +1, 2-12 acid damage (Mage Killers)
Arrows of detonation = 6-36 explosion on impact (Rapid firebalsl)
Arrows of piercing = THACO +4, +6 Piercing Damage (DEATH)

Add this with haste, nothing will touch you - not even Sarevok.
If you have multiple archers in your party, dear god its a slaughter.

Need I say more?

Roller12

How much does it cost for one archer to shoot a round with arrows of detonations?

Djimmy

In BG1, archery is very powerful, but not overpowered. Mobs just have low hp, so does your party. Also, there are less fast opponents in comparison with BG2. There is a penalty for point blank shots and when you face hasted Glabrezu(BG2), for example, you will not get the chance to fire more than one or two arrows before it reaches you(unless you block its way with some of your party members). Another thing is that in BG2 there are more spells(including ranged spells) which can be used instead of archery. That's why archery seems overpowered in BG1.

Valmont

Ive always found archery a must-have in BG1 so its pretty damn strong. Meanwhile, in BG2 an archer kit can absolutely ravage the opposition, but unless I have one of those along, its pretty much all swords and spells for me. My fighters carry largely decorative backup bows and crossbows... and slings for mages I dont want to go into melee serve more as a way to keep their AIs in line than as a real weapon (Admittedly one of the bonus merchants' slings can be deadly in Jaheira's hands)

Synergetic

Djimmy said:

In BG1, archery is very powerful, but not overpowered. Mobs just have low hp, so does your party. Also, there are less fast opponents in comparison with BG2. There is a penalty for point blank shots and when you face hasted Glabrezu(BG2), for example, you will not get the chance to fire more than one or two arrows before it reaches you(unless you block its way with some of your party members). Another thing is that in BG2 there are more spells(including ranged spells) which can be used instead of archery. That's why archery seems overpowered in BG1.

@Roller12
Money really has no value in this game after a certain point - You find most of the best gear in the game and whatever else you don't have its tomes or pots or maybe a simple upgrade here and there.
Whatever the price is - AOD are best used for nasty fights where range is your ally and the rewards are profitable vs wasting it on a grizzly bear. I think protection from fire halves teh damage if you decidce to ever go chargin in.

@Djimmy
It's very powerful but not overpowered - compared to what exacly?

You are right that every enemy with the exception of a few bosses have low HP including yourself which means if you can hit things from a distance before they hit you its to your advantage. That's not what makes archery OP. Its the THACO and damage modifiers to both the BOWS as well as the ARROWS that make it OP - You have 2 damage modifiers just on the weapons alone let alone other profiencies and items.

Pound for pound bows in BG1 do the MOST damage of any weapon type in the game.
Better than even Drizzt's + 5 Defender Scimitar which is lulz.

I am not saying I dislike using them - but from a perspective you have to look at them and go this is ridiculous when you watch a screen full of enemy start droping left and right.

@Valmont
I agree, and I always have 2 of my group using them with the ranged attack script while my fighters go up front. It provides excellent damage and once a bit latter leveled up the best mage killers in the game.

Roller12

Avoided the question, their cost is exorbitant and quickly runs into 5 digits if using, there is nothing in the game worth using them on for that cost except, maybe, Sarevok, thats one group in the entire game. They are consumables and there are better consumables out there like potions and and wands. Which is not to say archery is bad, but arrows of detonations are certainly not the reason for anything. Spamming wand of summoning is easier and cost less.

Silence

@Roller12 is right...the cost of these arrows is exorbitant and there are not many of them available. On the other hand, acid arrows are only moderately expensive, but do serious damage to one target. I don't think it's the detonation arrows that are the problem.

I don't think it is Bows that are the problem in BG1, but the exceptional quality of arrows. In BG2, there seems to be the reverse problem: most arrows suck. In BG1, I think an acid arrow does like 2d6 extra damage...in BG2, it does d3. The game is harder but the arrows are way weaker. Doesn't make sense.

LadyRhian

I want there to be a set of bows that allow you to get your strength bonus on arrow hits. In the Pen and Paper games, every + to damage cost 100% more than the original bow. So a Composite Bow usable by someone with an 18/00 Strength (only) would cost 600 gp. It also gives you something to use your money on in BG1.

Humanoid_Taifun

@LadyRhian
And then around comes the half-orc archer with strength 22 at level 6 (19 + tome + DUHM), who deals
1D6 + 6 (Arrow of Piercing) + 3 (Composite Longbow +1) + 3 (grandmastery) + 2 (archer) + 10 (strength)
= 1D6 + 24 points of damage per hit.
Are you trying to completely rip apart everything resembling balance?

(as for the bonus damage for the composite longbow or even the archer kit, one could disregard those and still have a number that is far too big to be allowed in BG1)

In Baldur's Gate 1, there is no need to make ranged weapons any more powerful. If anything, then somebody should restore the damage bonuses for enchantment in Baldur's Gate 2, where ranged combat is actually weak.

LadyRhian

@Humanoid_Taifun That's actually from 2e, the part about the bows costing more. And the DUHM isn't in BG1, is it? That's where I mentioned having it.

Humanoid_Taifun

Of course DUHM is in BG1. All you need to do to get it is not be a jerk all the time.

Silence

@Humanoid_Taifun: It's important to have a 'control' comparison of melee weapons. Below follows mine, assuming the same character instead having longsword GM and the famous longsword +2.

True-class fighter: 1d8 + 2 (weapon) + 3 (GM) + 10 (strength) + 1 (cold) = 1d8 + 16.
Berserker kit (w/rage) or Kensai kit: 1d8 + 18.

As half-orcs cannot be archers, the damage total you propose is actually 1d6 + 22 per hit. Now, assuming they implement the 2e composite longbow which benefits from strength, the natural damage bonus on the bow (+2) would be removed completely, as this is not part of the 2e rules. This would reduce the piercing arrow damage total to 1d6 + 20 - which is less than that for the longsword . To summarize, @LadyRhian's suggestion is not going to break game completely.

Your post, I think, proves the point I was trying to make: It's the arrows, not the bows, that unbalance archery in BG1. If you take out the arrow of piercing, the advantage is clearly in favour of the melee weapon. And you propose, in my mind, a good solution: you don't have to change anything in BG1, but give us better bows in BG2.

Humanoid_Taifun

@Silence
Anything above 20 points of damage is quite insane for ranged combat in Baldur's Gate 1. Some of the toughest enemies are melee oriented.

(by the way, your kensai numbers are a bit off, he'd only get a bonus of +2 at level 6 (to my knowledge) but be able to deal maximum damage for a total of 26, though he would have earned himself that kind of damage anyway)

Silence

Yeah I think you're right - just looked over the numbers now.

And I agree - +20 to damage is insane in BG1. Part of the problem is the half-orc strength. I don't think BG1 tolerates half-orcs particularly well.

Like I said, I'd settle for worse arrows and better bows. In BG1 and BG2. When (and if) discussion for BG2 opens up, that's the first suggestion I'm going to make. I don't think "Strength bonus" on Bows will fly, but I want to see something done to make archery better in BG2.