proliferation of SCS/no-reload runs warms my heart
Ygramul
Member Posts: 1,060
The singular reason why BG is so very popular and unchallenged after all this time is that it is particularly well-balanced: you can play it as if it is your virtual life (i.e. no reloads for mistakes) -- but just barely, and only if you are really careful and invested in details.
Hardly a better measure of immersion can be found in a game. I hope that more developers will make games that are balanced around no-reload. In fact, I find that I just cannot bear to play any games that aren't no-reload friendly. (I do make exceptions to see the story once: Mass Effect, Witcher etc. have decent story telling, but I never see myself playing more than once .)
As an example, below (in spoilers) is a sample day of a no-reload run from a while back, where an unfortunate mishap kills a friend. (That trilogy no-reload run ended later by a certain Lavok ADHWing me into goo... I have yet to finish the trilogy as a no-reload after many years of trying...)
(from the "Transcredible Exploits of Khemael the Fighter/Mage)
The LAMENT OF MINSC - SO PASSES A BERSEKER HERO
MINSC!
Your mighty berserker spirit shall not go unavenged, Minsc!
But, but it was by my own hand.
It all started with journey to de Arnise Keep which we never managed
to reach. First, we ran into a bunch of thugs attacking a guy named
Renfeld who was also poisoned (why bother posioning someone that you
are already beating is beyond my ken, but those thugs weren't the
smartest of the bunch perhaps). On our way to deliver Renfeld to his
friends, we got beset first by muggers and then a mad cleric. Not
dismayed by the few bruises we got on the way, we delivered Renfeld to
a secretive looking building. Time for a bit of a rest before get back
on the road to to de Arnise Keep. Meanwhile, of course, Minsc is
bugging me to go to Imnesvale to help the little kid who asked for
help and Aerie is on my nerves to go meet someone named Realis, and
all three girls are constantly nagging about their unending personal
troubles. Instead of party I seem to be leading a self-help circle.
Only Jan, bless him, isn't on about some personal obsession, though
turnips probably count as one.
Anyway, after dropping Renfeld we stop by for a drink at this place
called Sea's Bounty and out of nowhere this Ployer guy appears. After
his tirade, he curses Jaheira and neither rest or magic could cure
her. With the help of Bernard we track Ployer to his hide-out in the
slums for some well deserved justice. I know that I am about to walk
in to a fight and though Ployer seemed like a push-over I am not going
to risk anyone in case of a trap.
We prepare: all that magic can grant as protection against steel and
spell. But Ployer was also prepared. Three mages teleport in - and
immediately disappear in to shadowed doors. Viconia true-sees in
response. While Ployer is being hammered by us all we are surrounded
by the three mages, now -visible, wreathed in flames, shielded with
barriers against sword and spell. Minsc lets out a battlecry and
starts hammering on one of the mages with his sword Lillalcor shouting
along with glee. Minsc's blows have no effect and each hit burns him
instead with cold flames, but he does not let up. Jan and I attempt to
remove the magic of the mages, but their spells are stronger than
ours. Jaheira summons insects but fiery shields of the mages stop
them. I decapitate Ployer where he stands. His expression is not
shock, not fear, not remorse, but satisfaction. He knew. The bastard
knew that he would die here. He is certain that so will we. Right
here.
We shall see.
Between me and Aerie we have two spell thrusts and I have but one
Breach memorized. We can handle a mage. We have planned for it. We are
ready. But three at the same time? Jan's Flasher bolts stuns one of
the mages and Minsc and I start wailing at him. My mind is protected
against their magics. I try to stand between the two other mages and
the party in the small space. With one of their ranks fallen to our
swords the two remaining mages seem to be even more hellbent to takes
us down.
Two mages nod to one another. I can trace their spells as their are
being cast. As I rush across the room, followed closely by Minsc's
battlecry, I know that I am too late. The first mage casts a
dispelling incantation and all our protection spells dissolve around
us. The second mage almost simultaneously casts Chaos.
And the room around me becomes a blur.
I remember flailing my swords at the phantoms that apparate around me.
The rest of the story I piece together later from Jan's visions. He
remembers it all as his mind was not addled by the terrible spell.
Neither was Aerie's, but she will not talk to me. She knows, I know
that she will never forget what came upon Minsc in that room by my own
hand.
Jaheira, Viconia, and I stumble around the room randomly exchanging
blows. Viconia is apparently heavily wounded by my hand in the bout
while Jaheira randomly attacks Aerie. Jan remembers what the elder
mage has cast as Minsc lunges at him: Stone to Flesh. It turns Minsc
into an angry statue. It could have been me. It could have been me,
but it got Minsc. There are magics to reverse even that, of course, if
only we can make it out of there alive. Neither Jan nor Aerie flees
the battle, though there is little hope. They have no means of
dispelling the mind addling charms or to return Minsc to his form. The
magic missiles they have left in their arsenal cannot penetrate the
magic shields of either mage. Jan grabs his glowing short sword and
runs after the elder mage. A contingency blocks Jan's stabs as the
mage's now exposed skin turns again to sheets of stone.
I remember lunging against a shadowy figure as fire and acid eats
through my skin. One of the mages lies dead at my feet. Wounded I
attack the next one. Sheated in a skin of stone. I hit him and my
strike rings true. As the mage's image shatteres before me, I realize
even through the fog of magical confusion that addles me, that
someting is wrong. Instead of dispelling the last of the stoneskins of
the mage, I have utterly destroyed the statue that was once Minsc.
Minsc is dead. Not only dead, but broken, literally, into tiny pieces.
His screaming sword Lilarcor, his massive armor, his apparently useles
protective cloak, all shattered with him. His companion Boo, shattered
with him.
What saves our wretched lives is a mistake. The last mistake of the
mage. The mage dispels -dispels- our magics. Probably out fear of what
Jan and Aerie are about to do to him. This immeaditely clears our
minds. Viconia is almost dead. We are all wounded. But our minds are
ours. This is not the time for regret - I react with instinct and,
along with Jan, I hit the mage as the last of his stoneskins
dissipate. This time I am certain that it is HIM, not the mirage of a
friend.
But we fail to interrupt his last spell: A chain of lightning sparks
out of his hands. Killing Viconia immediately and leaving the rest of
us within an inch of our lives. But my sword ends his next
incantation.
I stand in the room. Covered in blood, most of it my own. A wave of
pain passes through Aerie's eyes and it is the last time she looks at
me. She lowers her gaze. Everyone lowers their gaze. There are magics
to bring back the dead. But Minsc is gone forever.
I killed Boo. I killed Minsc.
--
(To reflect the consequences of the addled mind and the self-loathing
of Khemael, I now change my alignment to Chaotic Neutral in
Shadowkeeper. As you may recall Khemael started as Lawful Good in
Candlekeep, but has turned Chaotic Good after Irenicus' dungeon to
reflect his opposition to the laws of the land.)
By the way, the following are usually my house rules:
No-cheese & no obstructive metagaming. I personally roll characters without re-arranging stats (i.e. no
min-max), but usually reroll for a bit. Minor aesthetic changes via EEkeper is okay (I like my fighter/mage multi to be human, for example), but no hacks like imported immunities or items.) I don't buy back ("recharge") wands or other such shenanigans. I don't use Project Image (it should have been consuming your memorized spells). No
maximum hitpoints: too bad if my big burly fighter rolled a 1 at level up. I use SCS with all AI improvements & some modest challenges, but without major rule changes (e.g. mages don't autocast a dozen spells on round 1; in turn, I don't prebuff by metagaming encounters, except for scouting).
What are your experiences and reasons to keep coming back to no-reload?
What house rules do you use?
Hardly a better measure of immersion can be found in a game. I hope that more developers will make games that are balanced around no-reload. In fact, I find that I just cannot bear to play any games that aren't no-reload friendly. (I do make exceptions to see the story once: Mass Effect, Witcher etc. have decent story telling, but I never see myself playing more than once .)
As an example, below (in spoilers) is a sample day of a no-reload run from a while back, where an unfortunate mishap kills a friend. (That trilogy no-reload run ended later by a certain Lavok ADHWing me into goo... I have yet to finish the trilogy as a no-reload after many years of trying...)
(from the "Transcredible Exploits of Khemael the Fighter/Mage)
The LAMENT OF MINSC - SO PASSES A BERSEKER HERO
MINSC!
Your mighty berserker spirit shall not go unavenged, Minsc!
But, but it was by my own hand.
It all started with journey to de Arnise Keep which we never managed
to reach. First, we ran into a bunch of thugs attacking a guy named
Renfeld who was also poisoned (why bother posioning someone that you
are already beating is beyond my ken, but those thugs weren't the
smartest of the bunch perhaps). On our way to deliver Renfeld to his
friends, we got beset first by muggers and then a mad cleric. Not
dismayed by the few bruises we got on the way, we delivered Renfeld to
a secretive looking building. Time for a bit of a rest before get back
on the road to to de Arnise Keep. Meanwhile, of course, Minsc is
bugging me to go to Imnesvale to help the little kid who asked for
help and Aerie is on my nerves to go meet someone named Realis, and
all three girls are constantly nagging about their unending personal
troubles. Instead of party I seem to be leading a self-help circle.
Only Jan, bless him, isn't on about some personal obsession, though
turnips probably count as one.
Anyway, after dropping Renfeld we stop by for a drink at this place
called Sea's Bounty and out of nowhere this Ployer guy appears. After
his tirade, he curses Jaheira and neither rest or magic could cure
her. With the help of Bernard we track Ployer to his hide-out in the
slums for some well deserved justice. I know that I am about to walk
in to a fight and though Ployer seemed like a push-over I am not going
to risk anyone in case of a trap.
We prepare: all that magic can grant as protection against steel and
spell. But Ployer was also prepared. Three mages teleport in - and
immediately disappear in to shadowed doors. Viconia true-sees in
response. While Ployer is being hammered by us all we are surrounded
by the three mages, now -visible, wreathed in flames, shielded with
barriers against sword and spell. Minsc lets out a battlecry and
starts hammering on one of the mages with his sword Lillalcor shouting
along with glee. Minsc's blows have no effect and each hit burns him
instead with cold flames, but he does not let up. Jan and I attempt to
remove the magic of the mages, but their spells are stronger than
ours. Jaheira summons insects but fiery shields of the mages stop
them. I decapitate Ployer where he stands. His expression is not
shock, not fear, not remorse, but satisfaction. He knew. The bastard
knew that he would die here. He is certain that so will we. Right
here.
We shall see.
Between me and Aerie we have two spell thrusts and I have but one
Breach memorized. We can handle a mage. We have planned for it. We are
ready. But three at the same time? Jan's Flasher bolts stuns one of
the mages and Minsc and I start wailing at him. My mind is protected
against their magics. I try to stand between the two other mages and
the party in the small space. With one of their ranks fallen to our
swords the two remaining mages seem to be even more hellbent to takes
us down.
Two mages nod to one another. I can trace their spells as their are
being cast. As I rush across the room, followed closely by Minsc's
battlecry, I know that I am too late. The first mage casts a
dispelling incantation and all our protection spells dissolve around
us. The second mage almost simultaneously casts Chaos.
And the room around me becomes a blur.
I remember flailing my swords at the phantoms that apparate around me.
The rest of the story I piece together later from Jan's visions. He
remembers it all as his mind was not addled by the terrible spell.
Neither was Aerie's, but she will not talk to me. She knows, I know
that she will never forget what came upon Minsc in that room by my own
hand.
Jaheira, Viconia, and I stumble around the room randomly exchanging
blows. Viconia is apparently heavily wounded by my hand in the bout
while Jaheira randomly attacks Aerie. Jan remembers what the elder
mage has cast as Minsc lunges at him: Stone to Flesh. It turns Minsc
into an angry statue. It could have been me. It could have been me,
but it got Minsc. There are magics to reverse even that, of course, if
only we can make it out of there alive. Neither Jan nor Aerie flees
the battle, though there is little hope. They have no means of
dispelling the mind addling charms or to return Minsc to his form. The
magic missiles they have left in their arsenal cannot penetrate the
magic shields of either mage. Jan grabs his glowing short sword and
runs after the elder mage. A contingency blocks Jan's stabs as the
mage's now exposed skin turns again to sheets of stone.
I remember lunging against a shadowy figure as fire and acid eats
through my skin. One of the mages lies dead at my feet. Wounded I
attack the next one. Sheated in a skin of stone. I hit him and my
strike rings true. As the mage's image shatteres before me, I realize
even through the fog of magical confusion that addles me, that
someting is wrong. Instead of dispelling the last of the stoneskins of
the mage, I have utterly destroyed the statue that was once Minsc.
Minsc is dead. Not only dead, but broken, literally, into tiny pieces.
His screaming sword Lilarcor, his massive armor, his apparently useles
protective cloak, all shattered with him. His companion Boo, shattered
with him.
What saves our wretched lives is a mistake. The last mistake of the
mage. The mage dispels -dispels- our magics. Probably out fear of what
Jan and Aerie are about to do to him. This immeaditely clears our
minds. Viconia is almost dead. We are all wounded. But our minds are
ours. This is not the time for regret - I react with instinct and,
along with Jan, I hit the mage as the last of his stoneskins
dissipate. This time I am certain that it is HIM, not the mirage of a
friend.
But we fail to interrupt his last spell: A chain of lightning sparks
out of his hands. Killing Viconia immediately and leaving the rest of
us within an inch of our lives. But my sword ends his next
incantation.
I stand in the room. Covered in blood, most of it my own. A wave of
pain passes through Aerie's eyes and it is the last time she looks at
me. She lowers her gaze. Everyone lowers their gaze. There are magics
to bring back the dead. But Minsc is gone forever.
I killed Boo. I killed Minsc.
--
(To reflect the consequences of the addled mind and the self-loathing
of Khemael, I now change my alignment to Chaotic Neutral in
Shadowkeeper. As you may recall Khemael started as Lawful Good in
Candlekeep, but has turned Chaotic Good after Irenicus' dungeon to
reflect his opposition to the laws of the land.)
By the way, the following are usually my house rules:
No-cheese & no obstructive metagaming. I personally roll characters without re-arranging stats (i.e. no
min-max), but usually reroll for a bit. Minor aesthetic changes via EEkeper is okay (I like my fighter/mage multi to be human, for example), but no hacks like imported immunities or items.) I don't buy back ("recharge") wands or other such shenanigans. I don't use Project Image (it should have been consuming your memorized spells). No
maximum hitpoints: too bad if my big burly fighter rolled a 1 at level up. I use SCS with all AI improvements & some modest challenges, but without major rule changes (e.g. mages don't autocast a dozen spells on round 1; in turn, I don't prebuff by metagaming encounters, except for scouting).
What are your experiences and reasons to keep coming back to no-reload?
What house rules do you use?
7
Comments
I don't share my runs because they don't last too long. But I get better each time and learn new things. Which is fun. I have beaten the game numerous times in a reload game before, so this challenge is perfect for me.
-no cheats (of any kind)
-illegal combinations are allowed (only if they aren't too OP)
-no reload
-solo or full party, no middle ground here.
-no complete prebuffing (I can cast two or three spells before entering a dungeon or somewhere else I would suspect danger).
-no exploits
-mid to high RP'ing.
No-reload is quite addictive. I wonder if I'll ever be able to complete the trilogy with it. My problem is that I often start to like my characters and want to truly role-play them (even if I initially allowed myself to metagame to enhance my prospects of survival).
My rules change from time to time. SCS and no-reload are keywords of course, and I always play with a number of gameplay-changing mods that have also become staples for me (including aTWeaks, Ascension, Hard Times, and Item Randomisation).
I tend to roll for high stats (between 87 and 97), so I don't really have to min/max (don't like my warriors to have 4 WIS, or my Cleric/Mage to have 3 CHA). I always play with full HP for all characters in the game: charname, friends and foes. And like @CrevsDaak I allow for illegal combos, which means kitting multiclasses. However when the game begins, I try to avoid metagaming as much as possible, prebuff little, don't recharge wands, and don't use explotits. You dare to play a Wild Mage with that rule
A while ago, I developed some ground rules to survive no-reload -- and EVERYTIME I die it is because I have broken one of them myself:
1. Do not fight wounded. -- If a Gibberling could kill you with a
critical hit with 5% chance, you WILL die after many many encounters.
Similarly, do not melee with Charname if you don't have enough HP to
survive a worst case blow (non-helmet classes need twice the HP
buffer).
2. Scout. -- Obvious. If not metagaming, an encounter with a hostile
party can go south easily if unbuffed, but become a cake walk if
buffed. Especially at BGEE levels, you don't have enough spells to
remain buffed to the hilt all the time. So, scout.
3. Spells: Melee Defense. -- Especially, if charname is a frontliner.
If charname is a F/M or Blade almost all spells should be defensive.
Load up on: Shield, Mirror Image, Blur, Wraithform, Stoneskin etc. BUT
also on mage defense spells such as Minor Globe, Remove Magic etc.
4. Spells: Mage Fights. -- Most dangerous encounters by far; will end
most no-reload games. In BGEE, status effects (sleep, hold, horror,
web) WILL kill you. Worse yet, some mages will do clever things like:
Minor Globe -> Web -> Fireball. (SCS mage AI is fantastic! -- and
without breaking game rules; it plays close to how *you* should be
playing a mage.)
So, you need to:
- scatter the party (so that not everyone is disabled/burned by a
single AoE spell)
- carry anti-magic spells (Spell Thrust is a must in BGEE -- even
necessary in BG2 because it removes Spell Immunity that SCS mages love
to use)
- Scout! and Buff! (That Web and Fireball will just tickle you, if
you are buffed with Protection from Fire and Free Action)
- strike first (since I do not allow myself to metagame, I only do
this if I legitimately scouted)
5. Defense over Offense. -- Some risky strategies that let you win 1/3
times are just fine if you reload, but in a no-reload run, for every
round you need to make sure that you are 0.9999 (*) likely to survive
that particular round.
(*) Yes, that number is more or less accurate:
Say, in a typical BGEE/BG2EE run you remain in combat for something
like 20 hours (not including pauses), then you are in combat for a
little over 10,000 rounds. With the average survival rate given above,
your chances of finishing a BGEE/BG2EE no-reload run is a mere 37%.
(0.9999^10000)
6. Use consumables like your life depends on them. It does.
7. Wild Mages [theoretical] -- DO. NOT. CAST. IN. PUBLIC. Really,
what are you gonna do if you get a Gate in Beregost, or a
Fireball:self amid Flaming Fist headcourters. Cast only at the enemies
(and do not ever buff the charname with a wild mage!)
This is just with Neera, by the way. I doubt anyone ever finished a
no-reload run with a Wild Mage charname:
Here are the odds:
there are about ~10/100 wild surges that act as "kill the caster" at
low levels (even at high levels, "Petrify:self" will usually kill you,
even if you might survive a fireball to the face then)
If you cast 1000 spells through a no-reload run, you will have about
50 surges and your survival chance throughout the run comes to about
0.5% -- yep, just half a percent, even if you play an otherwise
perfect game.
(0.1 chance of death per surge -> 0.9^50 = 0.0052 chance of surviving 50 surges)
\end{theorycraft}
The way we invest ourselves into the characters in a no-reload run makes us a bit more sentimental about caring for their story (and having others care for their story as well).
The peril is real -- as much as real peril is possible in a game, that is.
In this spirit, I enter my current no-reload candidate:
a Dragon Disciple
(not my first: a previous DD died to poison in Nashkel Mines because I thought I could get away with waiting for a Cure Minor Wounds from Jaheira rather than "waste" an Antidote Potion -- see rule 6 above.)
She is fairly rolled in under 5 minutes (would have preferred a higher WIS for lower STR, as I love Wish spells, but alas...). Initial picks: Shield, Magic Missile. Proficiency: Staff (helped against Shank, which ended more than one of my games.)
The one twist I permit myself in this run is that Imoen is a fighter/mage from the gate (but with the same stats: so, STR 9) specializing in dual Short Swords.
I have high hopes with this one... again.
Whether to add SCS to the mix is a matter of what mood I'm in.
By far the most immersive game I've ever played is one that I still have running. I have avoided metagame knowledge as much as possible, and reacted only according to what the characters could know of their world. I have roleplayed all the characters in the party independently, not just CHARNAME. Each party member has a life of his or her own. And I have journaled the effort. I'm not sure that I will journal to the same extent ever again, but I have really enjoyed it in the game I have going.
With this RP approach the characters don't have the meta-game knowledge that we the players possess. So they proceed according to their own knowledge of the world. This limits the amount of powerful items that would otherwise be obtained in a meta-gamed run.
Another fascinating and rewarding element of this game for me has been to let chance determine many of the outcomes. I flip a card (red suit = yes, black suit = no) or roll a die using the WotC die roller. So things like whether the party notices an Easter egg (if they even end up coming across it) is not a given. Has any of the characters heard that there are powerful enchanted items for sale in Ulgoth's Beard, of all places? Probably not. If a bard is in the party, I might roll a 1d20 for whether he has heard such a rumor. And so forth.
But that said, I actually a enjoy a wide variety of playstyles. So I also play some games where I meta-game and use cheese tactics, and reload at will. Often all I can get is an hour here or there to blow off steam, and especially with SCS, I want to be able to complete some games with the same party.
"... Voice of the West whacking Shank with his staff ..."
Wow. There is something I have never seen before.
This is a great concept (i.e. let the fates decide). I'll read more about your journal. Good luck with the run!
Lots of luck with Selyna, would like to read about her!
[Adventures of Selyna the Dragon Disciple]
In a display of SCS call-for-help AI, I just got beset by 2 half ogres... joined by 2 ogrillions... (by which time one half ogre was dead; the other nearly; so I figure I can handle this)... and 2 ogres (getting hairy; but I already Entagled the ogrillions, started pelting them; so if I only Blind the ogres...)... an ogre berserker (only one ogre Blind; and I'm out any crowd-control spells... perhaps, Command will by me a round...)... Maybe a strategic retreat while ranged attacks can still win this... ooops: ran into a pack of dire wolves during retreat...
At this point queue the Benny Hill Show theme as I am being chased by this merry band of monsters to the map exit...
I had perhaps decent odds of winning the fight still, but two critical hits would have killed Jaheira or Branwen (my tanks) and I would have had to dash away without even picking up her gear. Now back in Nashkel, licking wounds, lived to see another day. You win this round Ogres.
Managed to scramble through BG1 i SoA. How, I don't know, since I'm addicted to power word: reload... Didn't reload even when Branwen killed Xan under Chaos even before they had chance to talk to him. Really gave a lot of depth to the game and when it ended I laughed through tears because of the way it happened
I started ToB, let Sarevok join the party, attempted to get through first challenge... Usually it's so easy, right? It was. Charname tanked by Sarevok's side, not even wounded, but then ogre mage charmed dear brother.
Charname didn't even have time to run away, I didn't have time to say "what". He attacked *once*... With a goddamn Deathbringer Assault.
At least she made him give the oath, so I still have some satisfaction. Heh.