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'Worst' mage specialization school.

SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
So i'm thinking about making a half-elf F/M and would like to find out what people see as the 'worst' mage specialization. The reason i have for this is that i'm finding myself using the same spells on most of my mages and would like to pick a specialization that will lock me out of the most 'used' spells. The only specialization i won't play is abjurer because i won't give up on my sequencers and spell triggers in BG2.

I want to RP him and prevent too much power gaming so his stats will reflect the specialization he takes.

Here is an example of a Diviner but while i love the whole idea of the Diviner, i don't feel that losing out on Conjuration would be that big of a deal.

Half-Elf
F/M
Diviner

STR - 15
DEX - 18
CON - 13
INT - 18
WIS - 17
CHA - 11


So which specialization do you think is the 'worst' one in the game? Which do you feel would force you to use completely different spells from the ones you're used to playing with?

[Edited] : Wrote wrong and should have written Enchanter instead of Abjurer.
Post edited by SionIV on
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Comments

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    Diviner is probably the weakest (considering the spells from Divination school), but the from an RP point of view, it's great.
    Enchanters are also pretty weak in BG2, and Illusionists miss some great spells for late/mid game.

    IIRC, Enchanters are the ones who can't use Sequencers, since, IIRC, Contingencies are from two different schools.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    It's a matter of personal playing style, @SionIV, so it's difficult for others to predict what school would force the biggest change from your usual style.

    Being an Abjurer, and therefore losing Alteration spells, would preclude the wonderful Stoneskin spell. However, the sequencers and triggers (and contingencies) are Invocation spells, so it's Enchanters who lose those, not Abjurers. So maybe you could try an Abjurer and try to survive without Stoneskin, that'll certainly make it tougher.

    Alternatively, I find ADHW very useful at higher levels, which is Necromancy, as are several other powerful spells (Animate Dead, WotB, etc.) It's Illusionists who are forbidden from Necromancy, so maybe you could try that. (And in that case, you could play a Gnome instead of a Half-Elf and get a Fighter/Illusionist legally, without even having to resort to an editor!)

    On the third hand (?!), a Transmuter loses Abjuration spells, which knocks out various defences and also knocks out Dispel Magic and Remove Magic. I'd find that might be really crippling to a Mage, so I reckon a Transmuter might be the weakest. But as I said in the first place, what you'll miss most depends upon how you most often use a mage, which we don't know.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    CrevsDaak said:

    Diviner is probably the weakest (considering the spells from Divination school), but the from an RP point of view, it's great.
    Enchanters are also pretty weak in BG2, and Illusionists miss some great spells for late/mid game.

    IIRC, Enchanters are the ones who can't use Sequencers, since, IIRC, Contingencies are from two different schools.

    Thank you for correcting me, wrote the wrong specialisation. It is indeed enchanters who can't use Sequencers :)
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,584
    Enchanter gets my vote, by far - it misses out on most of the best offensive spells IMO.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689

    Enchanter gets my vote, by far - it misses out on most of the best offensive spells IMO.

    If it wasn't because of sequencers, spell triggers and contingencies i would have picked the Enchanter without a doubt.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    SionIV said:

    Enchanter gets my vote, by far - it misses out on most of the best offensive spells IMO.

    If it wasn't because of sequencers, spell triggers and contingencies i would have picked the Enchanter without a doubt.
    If you use those spells a lot, not using them would be a great challenge in my opinion ;)
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited May 2014
    CrevsDaak said:

    SionIV said:

    Enchanter gets my vote, by far - it misses out on most of the best offensive spells IMO.

    If it wasn't because of sequencers, spell triggers and contingencies i would have picked the Enchanter without a doubt.
    If you use those spells a lot, not using them would be a great challenge in my opinion ;)
    I was just waiting for someone to mention this part!

    The reason for the sequencers and contingencies is because i'm playing no-reload games. Having those is like having a backup plan to get me out of rough situations, especially when up against enemies in melee. And while i used them a lot in BG2, it's not so much them as the spells i'm using IN them.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Depends on how you play. I'm not really one for no-reload runs but in their case I would probably say

    BGEE: Invoker. Sleep is an awesome spell and while you can get a wand for it the spell is much better (and frankly given its a save or nothing spell a penalty to their saving throw against it is very handy in a no-reload run). The two big spells you miss out on that I can think of are Minor Sequencer and Cloudkill (since you can get a wand of fire for fireball/scorcher), but I kind of view it as being worth it.

    BG2EE: A non-gnome illusionist (with the illusionist you miss out on some really good spells and the saving throw bonus you get against illusion spells isn't all that useful) otherwise for a no-reload challenge I'd probably go with a conjurer.

    Obviously particularly around levels 4 and 6 the conjurer gets a bunch of good conjuration spells, but if you got to max level in BGEE then you should at least have a few Animate Dead spells available. Plus you can create a bunch of different summons from using figurines. Mordenkainen's Sword and Animate Dead however are not conjuration spells, so even a Diviner can use them. The conjurer however missing out on Farsight (there are a few encounters where this is better to use than Wizard Eye), Wizard Eye, and True Sight (which he can make up for with items). I consider Wizard Eye to be a particularly big loss because I figure in a no-reload run scouting is probably fairly important.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited May 2014
    I think it depends on a number of factors. I will presume you're playing with SCS installed. But:

    - Solo vs. with a party of __ ?
    - for the entire saga? Just BGEE? Just BG2EE?
    - how much adherence to the specialization school?
    - no reload? minimal reload? reload at will?
    - no-metagaming?

    Re: the degree of running with specialization, let's say that you set a rule that the character must fill more than half of his spell slots (total, for the entire book) with specialization school spells, and at least half the slots for each spell level must be from the specialization school.

    That would make soloing really tough. And if you're soloing, then losing Conjuration as a Diviner is a pretty major loss (that said, I can't recall what BG2 SCS enemy spellcasters do to counter summoned creatures).
    Post edited by Lemernis on
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    @SionIV you say that you find yourself using the same spells on most of your mages. Which spells are the ones you use the most (apart from the contingencies/triggers you won't sacrifice)? Is there a 'dominant' spell school for you?

    From personal experience I'm inclined to agree with @recklessheart: I find the Abjuration spells the most useful, at least in BG2, which would make specialists prohibited from casting those spells, i.e. Transmuters, the hardest to play for me (supposing there won't be two more mages casting Abjuration spells for me all the time).
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited May 2014

    @SionIV you say that you find yourself using the same spells on most of your mages. Which spells are the ones you use the most (apart from the contingencies/triggers you won't sacrifice)? Is there a 'dominant' spell school for you?

    From personal experience I'm inclined to agree with @recklessheart: I find the Abjuration spells the most useful, at least in BG2, which would make specialists prohibited from casting those spells, i.e. Transmuters, the hardest to play for me (supposing there won't be two more mages casting Abjuration spells for me all the time).

    Well my most used level 1-4 spells would be the following.

    1.)

    Blind
    Sleep
    Magic Missile
    Find Familiar
    Friends
    Protection from Evil
    Sleep

    2.)

    Blur
    Glitterdust
    Invisibility
    Mirror Image
    Melf's Acid Arrow
    Web
    Strength

    3.)

    Flame Arrow
    Haste
    Melf's Minute Meteors
    Protection from Fire
    Remove Magic
    Skulltrap

    4.)

    Confusion
    Enchanted Weapon
    Fireshield Blue/Red
    Greater Malison
    Improved Invisibility
    Minor Globe of Invulnerability
    Minor Sequencer
    Polymorph Self
    Stoneskin

    The plan was to mostly run solo with him, it's a no-reload and i'm not sure yet if i'll play with improved mages (SCS) or not. He's a F/M so he'll be in close combat himself instead of standing safely behind a group.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited May 2014
    For Fighter/Mages in BG1, like you apparently, I really dig Alteration (Haste, Stoneskin, Slow, perhaps Polymoprh self) and Illusionism (Blur, Mirror Image, Invisibility and Improved Invisibility).

    So maybe Abjurer or Necromancer for you?
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited May 2014

    For Fighter/Mages in BG1, like you apparently, I really dig Alteration (Haste, Stoneskin, Slow, perhaps Polymoprh self) and Illusionism (Blur, Mirror Image, Invisibility and Improved Invisibility).

    So maybe Abjurer or Necromancer for you?

    I'm not too keen on the Necromancer as it really doesn't work out RP wise for me on a F/M. But the Abjurer could work out well. I've came up with these options then.

    Diviner
    Abjurer
    Transmuter
    Enchanter (I could always cheat in the sequencers...)

    [Edited] : Anyone know how it works with spells that are part of two schools?

    Fireshield - Alteration, Evocation.
    Wish - Conjuration, Evocation.

    Does that mean that an Abjurer and Enchanter can't use Fireshield? And a Diviner and Enchanter can't use Wish?
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    Good question, I know that in the original game Transmuters can't cast Lower Resistance (even though it's supposedly an Abjuration and Transmutation spell, two mutually exclusive schools). But I think EE has made a number of changes.

    I'd recommend you to create an Enchanter and edit Fireshield and Wish into your inventory, see if they're usable or not. Or wait for a sage like @elminster to answer this specific question.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689

    Good question, I know that in the original game Transmuters can't cast Lower Resistance (even though it's supposedly an Abjuration and Transmutation spell, two mutually exclusive schools). But I think EE has made a number of changes.

    I'd recommend you to create an Enchanter and edit Fireshield and Wish into your inventory, see if they're usable or not. Or wait for a sage like @elminster to answer this specific question.

    Just gave it a try. He can use and learn Wish but he can't use nor learn Fireshield (Blue&Red).
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155

    Good question, I know that in the original game Transmuters can't cast Lower Resistance (even though it's supposedly an Abjuration and Transmutation spell, two mutually exclusive schools). But I think EE has made a number of changes.

    Still the same. It's blocked for Transmuters.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    I ended up going with a Fighter/Diviner. It made the most sense RP wise and looking at the divination spells true sight is the only one i normally use, so it's going to be refreshing trying to find a use for the other spells.

    Half Elf - Because Elf doesn't make sense from a RP perspective.
    Lawful Neutral - Fits very well in with candlekeep and the strict rules they have there.
    Fighter - Many guards around Candlekeep that could/would train Gorians ward.
    Mage - Gorian is a mage and in my opinion CHARNAME makes the most sense being a mage or bard.
    Diviner - We're in Candlekeep, so much lore in this place and many scribes that would teach you. He's also a follower of Oghma.

    Thank you all for the help, i'll probably run a Transmuter and Enchanter the next time i'm playing a single class mage.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited May 2014
    I don't know if its specific by spell, but I do know that edwin can't cast wizard eye in BG2EE even though it has two spell schools. If that is also how it works with lower resistance than that could very well be how it was intended to work. I really don't know.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited May 2014
    elminster said:

    I don't know if its specific by spell, but I do know that edwin can't cast wizard eye in BG2EE even though it has two spell schools. If that is also how it works with lower resistance than that could very well be how it was intended to work. I really don't know.

    But Wizard Eye is Divination/Alteration. It makes sense that for being Divination, Conjurers can't cast it. Lower Resistance on the other hand is Abjuration/Alteration; it would make sense for a Transmuter to be able to cast a spell of their own school. (If they didn't want Transmuters to cast this spell, then why label it Abjuration/Alteration?)
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Apparently abjurer's don't get the same treatment with the spell either (Spellstrike has the same situation going for it). From what I could tell Abjurer's can learn/cast both spells.
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2014
    Necromancy since Necromancers lose Mirror Image, Mislead, Project Image.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    I'll just post this here instead of making a new thread. Would a Diviner with high wisdom be able to sense/tell if a person is evil? Would it make sense attacking someone because you've had a vision/dream of them?
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited May 2014
    Well, there's always the Divination spell Know Alignment... :-)

    A vision/dream sounds a little more divine than arcane, perhaps. My guess is that if it was a tabletop game a DM would say use the spell.

    I mean that said, I like premise, though, that the Diviner gets "flashes" like that that are sort of psychic (and could come in dreams, more shamanistically). The character is soon going to develop Bhaalspawn special abilities, so perhaps this could be one as well. (Why not?)
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    Lemernis said:

    Well, there's always the Divination spell Know Alignment... :-)

    But would you actually kill someone based on that?
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited May 2014
    What's the character's alignment? And what sort of other personality and backstory issues might reinforce the alignment tendencies?
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    Lemernis said:

    What's the character's alignment?

    It's my Diviner, lawful neutral. Take Xzar and Montaron as an example.
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