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Evil character endings are disappointing

MhamzaMhamza Member Posts: 228
edited May 2014 in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
First off, be warned that there is a SPOILER ALERT in effect as of now

Has anyone noticed that the evil character endings are a bit disappointing compared to the good characters, with the exception of Korgan and Hexxat, it seems evil characters get the short end of the stick.

Take everybody's favorite Half-Orc Blackguard Dorn for example, I mean after defying the Gods themselves and potentially killing two of the most powerful infernal creatures in the lower planes, he gets captured twice by a paladin and then killed when he refuses to be captured again, or Viconia, who becomes one of the most powerful clerics in Faerun, basically on the level of a Chosen, either A. dies of poison or B. Becomes pals with Drizzt.

Any thoughts?
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Comments

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Well SOMEBODY sounds like a bitter, bitter woman. ;)
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited May 2014
    Both Minsc and Keldorn end up dying, something that makes their ending that much sweeter.

    I don't think the evil NPC's get the short end of the stick.
  • JenzafarJenzafar Member Posts: 303
    edited May 2014
    Discussion of NPC endings always brings to mind some words of wisdom from the great novelist Margaret Atwood:

    "You'll have to face it, the endings are the same however you slice it. Don't be deluded by any
    other endings, they're all fake, either deliberately fake, with malicious intent to deceive, or just
    motivated by excessive optimism if not by downright sentimentality.

    The only authentic ending is the one provided here:
    John and Mary die. John and Mary die. John and Mary die.

    So much for endings. Beginnings are always more fun. True connoisseurs, however, are known
    to favor the stretch in between, since it's the hardest to do anything with.

    That's about all that can be said for plots, which anyway are just one thing after another, a what
    and a what and a what.

    Now try How and Why."

    (The whole story is here, if you're interested: http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~rebeccal/lit/238f11/pdfs/HappyEndings_Atwood.pdf)


    But as to your premise that it's the evil characters that have it worst, I can only point you to Rasaad's non-romance ending, if you haven't seen it already. Those corrupted Sun Soul bastards slaughtered him, after all the good he's done. It's just awful.
  • MhamzaMhamza Member Posts: 228
    edited May 2014
    SionIV said:

    Both Minsc and Keldorn end up dying, something that makes their ending that much sweeter.

    I don't think the evil NPC's get the short end of the stick.

    I meant in comparison to the good NPCs who all either get heroic deaths e.g. Keldorn or just continuing their badssery e.g. Minsc, some of them get bad endings like Viconia, who's death is ridiculous in that a level 30 cleric dies of poison in the presence of one of the most powerful beings in Faerun while in the case of Dorn, I don't mind him dying, it's just the fact that I kinda expected him to die in an epic battle against the forces of good, e.g. Solars, Metallic Dragons and not just a paladin.

    At least Korgan got a good ending doing what he loved.
    DreadKhan said:

    Well SOMEBODY sounds like a bitter, bitter woman. ;)

    LOL, I guess I brought that one on myself

    Jenzafar said:



    But as to your premise that it's the evil characters that have it worst, I can only point you to Rasaad's non-romance ending, if you haven't seen it already. Those corrupted Sun Soul bastards slaughtered him, after all the good he's done. It's just awful.

    Rasaad has another ending if you deal with the whole twofold truth quest differently

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited May 2014
    Mhamza said:

    SionIV said:

    Both Minsc and Keldorn end up dying, something that makes their ending that much sweeter.

    I don't think the evil NPC's get the short end of the stick.

    I meant in comparison to the good NPCs who all either get heroic deaths e.g. Keldorn or just continuing their badssery e.g. Minsc, some of them get bad endings like Viconia, who's death is ridiculous in that a level 30 cleric dies of poison in the presence of one of the most powerful beings in Faerun while in the case of Dorn, I don't mind him dying, it's just the fact that I kinda expected him to die in an epic battle against the forces of good, e.g. Solars, Metallic Dragons and not just a paladin.

    At least Korgan got a good ending doing what he loved.
    DreadKhan said:

    Well SOMEBODY sounds like a bitter, bitter woman. ;)

    LOL, I guess I brought that one on myself

    But as to your premise that it's the evil characters that have it worst, I can only point you to Rasaad's non-romance ending, if you haven't seen it already. Those corrupted Sun Soul bastards slaughtered him, after all the good he's done. It's just awful.
    Rasaad has another ending if you deal with the whole twofold truth quest differently

    To be honest i don't feel that we can make a cut between 'good/bad' endings based on alignments, because there are 'bad' endings for characters of all three alignments (good, neutral, evil).

    Cernd and Jaheira (no romance) have the worst endings in my opinion, none of the evil npc's come close, not even Viconia (romance).

    And Rasaad has nothing on Cernds ending, now that is tragic.
  • MhamzaMhamza Member Posts: 228
    edited May 2014
    SionIV said:



    And Rasaad has nothing on Cernds ending, now that is tragic.

    Cernd contradicted what he said in SOA, that he would try to raise his son personally, so I think that's why it's so bad, because after his whole character development in that he realised family comes first, all that gets thrown out the window but yeah I see what you mean
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited May 2014
    Mhamza said:

    SionIV said:



    And Rasaad has nothing on Cernds ending, now that is tragic.

    Cernd contradicted what he said in SOA, that he would try to raise his son personally, so I think that's why it's so bad, because after his whole character development in that he realised family comes first, all that gets thrown out the window but yeah I see what you mean
    Cernd just can't win or catch a break. He really is the black sheep of Baldur's Gate 2.
  • MhamzaMhamza Member Posts: 228
    edited May 2014
    SionIV said:

    Mhamza said:

    SionIV said:



    And Rasaad has nothing on Cernds ending, now that is tragic.

    Cernd contradicted what he said in SOA, that he would try to raise his son personally, so I think that's why it's so bad, because after his whole character development in that he realised family comes first, all that gets thrown out the window but yeah I see what you mean
    Cernd just can't win or catch a break. He really is the black sheep of Baldur's Gate 2.

    Yeah I guess but I have a question about Keldorn, is he an exarch of Torm now?
    Post edited by Mhamza on
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    Archaos said:

    I don't know all of the endings but about Dorn and Viconia:

    Dorn: He's an epic 30 level Blackguard by the end of ToB. How many epic level Paladins are running around that manage to capture him? Why didn't he use buffs, poison weapon, Greater Whirlwind, summon freaking fallen deva to deal with any of them?
    I don't like when characters in a novel or ending are treated like 1st level commoners.

    Viconia: She gets poisoned. She should cast Remove/Cure/Delay Poison immediately. Then summon a planetar or some huge undead to deal with the assassin.
    Or Hold Person, or Finger of Death, or Gate, or freaking IMPLOSION, or Symbol of Death/Stun.

    She's an epic Cleric of Shar for crying out loud.

    I don't care if the Assassin has x8 backstab, a katana and poison. You're not taking an epic Cleric down that easily.

    And if they both survived so many things, including dragons, demiliches, monsters, and a would-be god. They can very well survive a freaking Paladin and an assassin.

    The problem isn't the ending or epilogue, it's the level you can reach in ToB. You shouldn't have been able to reach that high level to start with, you're more powerful than pretty much everyone else in the forgotten realm (except gods).
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited May 2014
    @SionIV I disagree. If the game has you fighting dragons and demi-gods, then you're as epic level as the stats say.

    Don't forget: that Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul were a group of adventurers that probably got into epic levels and challenged Jergal to be gods.

    That's what the History of the Dead Three says. (Bhaal the Fighter/Tyrant, Bhaal the Assassin, Myrkul the Necromancer).

    And there are far more powerful beings in the Realms. Larloch, Ioulaum, Archdukes of the Nine Hells, Demon Princes. Those are not gods.

    Very powerful "monsters" in the Epic Level Handbook in 3E. Or Elder Evils.

    And Great Wyrms (VERY old dragons of any color) are 40+ level monsters.
    Here's a list of just the Great Wyrms in Faerun. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Great_wyrms
  • MhamzaMhamza Member Posts: 228
    Archaos said:

    I don't know all of the endings but about Dorn and Viconia:

    Dorn: He's an epic 30 level Blackguard by the end of ToB. How many epic level Paladins are running around that manage to capture him? Why didn't he use buffs, poison weapon, Greater Whirlwind, summon freaking fallen deva to deal with any of them?
    I don't like when characters in a novel or ending are treated like 1st level commoners.

    Viconia: She gets poisoned. She should cast Remove/Cure/Delay Poison immediately. Then summon a planetar or some huge undead to deal with the assassin.
    Or Hold Person, or Finger of Death, or Gate, or freaking IMPLOSION, or Symbol of Death/Stun.

    She's an epic Cleric of Shar for crying out loud.

    I don't care if the Assassin has x8 backstab, a katana and poison. You're not taking an epic Cleric down that easily.

    And if they both survived so many things, including dragons, demiliches, monsters, and a would-be god. They can very well survive a freaking Paladin and an assassin.

    My point is, if you want to kill off a really powerful character, they should face an equally powerful challenge fitting to their supposed power.

    Not: "rocks fall everybody dies". "No, the wizard turns into an Iron Golem and holds the ceiling, the Druid turns into an Earth Elemental and does the same, then summons more elementals to do the same. The Cleric protects everyone and if anyone dies, he resurrects them or teleports them".

    Or, "they cast Wish and Miracle and the rocks don't freaking fall". (Neverwinter Nights 2 OC ending, I'm looking at you.)

    Indeed many of the evil character endings just don't add up, I mean most Charnames that take Viconia and Dorn are almost always evil and ascend, why don't they just become his chosen?
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    Archaos said:

    I don't know all of the endings but about Dorn and Viconia:

    Dorn: He's an epic 30 level Blackguard by the end of ToB. How many epic level Paladins are running around that manage to capture him? Why didn't he use buffs, poison weapon, Greater Whirlwind, summon freaking fallen deva to deal with any of them?
    I don't like when characters in a novel or ending are treated like 1st level commoners.

    Viconia: She gets poisoned. She should cast Remove/Cure/Delay Poison immediately. Then summon a planetar or some huge undead to deal with the assassin.
    Or Hold Person, or Finger of Death, or Gate, or freaking IMPLOSION, or Symbol of Death/Stun.

    She's an epic Cleric of Shar for crying out loud.

    I don't care if the Assassin has x8 backstab, a katana and poison. You're not taking an epic Cleric down that easily.

    And if they both survived so many things, including dragons, demiliches, monsters, and a would-be god. They can very well survive a freaking Paladin and an assassin.

    My point is, if you want to kill off a really powerful character, they should face an equally powerful challenge fitting to their supposed power.

    Not: "rocks fall everybody dies". "No, the wizard turns into an Iron Golem and holds the ceiling, the Druid turns into an Earth Elemental and does the same, then summons more elementals to do the same. The Cleric protects everyone and if anyone dies, he resurrects them or teleports them".

    Or, "they cast Wish and Miracle and the rocks don't freaking fall". (Neverwinter Nights 2 OC ending, I'm looking at you.)

    For Dorn, it is not hard to come up with a reasonable explanation. Perhaps the paladins had some divine help. The party that attacked Sammaster had to summon an avatar of Lathander to deal with the insane mage. It is not inconceivable that the party that attacked Dorn could have summoned an avatar of a good deity.

    It is admittedly harder to imagine Viconia falling to an assassin. Viconia could have been slain in an area of dead magic (the way Matron Baenre died to Bruenor Battlehammer). Or perhaps a weapon that specifically targeted Viconia (say, a weaponized version of Baron Ployer's curse) sealed her fate. Given that the Spellplague story arc was so implausible, I would not consider such a contorted explanation for Viconia's death as out of bounds.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited May 2014
    Archaos said:

    @SionIV I disagree. If the game has you fighting dragons and demi-gods, then you're as epic level as the stats say.

    Don't forget: that Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul were a group of adventurers that probably got into epic levels and challenged Jergal to be gods.

    That's what the History of the Dead Three says. (Bhaal the Fighter/Tyrant, Bhaal the Assassin, Myrkul the Necromancer).

    And there are far more powerful beings in the Realms. Larloch, Ioulaum, Archdukes of the Nine Hells, Demon Princes. Those are not gods.

    Very powerful "monsters" in the Epic Level Handbook in 3E. Or Elder Evils.

    And Great Wyrms (VERY old dragons of any color) are 40+ level monsters.

    In second edition (Baldur's gate) Larloch is a level 26 Wizard. So your Nalia and Imoen are more powerful than him. Elminster is 29 and Halaster is 25/5 so the same two girls (Nalia, Imoen) are also more powerful than mystras chosen.

    Fzoul Chembryl who was a chosen of Bane and now a demi-god was level 17/2. That's level 19 when he became a demi-god.

    Daurgothoth the dracolich is a level 20/5 and one of the most powerful beings in fearun. That's not only a dragon but also a lich. High level magician (20 wizard, 5 arch mage) and the melee power of a dragon. But he still isn't as powerful as some of the NPC's in your party.

    Now if we look at gods, none in your party can touch them, as you're all mortals, so they are out of the discussion.

    So yes the level you reach in this game is silly when a spoiled little girl like Nalia can go toe to toe against the most powerful foes and magicians in Fearun.

    When Bhaal, Myrkul and Bane became gods they weren't that high level.
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited May 2014
    @SionIV Still, even if we pretend that the actual cap the characters reach is 20 and everything beyond that is non-canon, a 20 level Cleric or Blackguard are quite challenging.

    Dorn can still cast Draw Upon Holy Might to buff himself or summon a really powerful undead.
    And Viconia can still cast all her very powerful protections and spells.

    Hell, even naked or in clothes (VERY unlikely for 20 level characters) and with no spells memorized, they can still put on a fight or use a few basic items.

    I would prefer if a group of Paladins and Clerics track down Dorn as he's a champion of evil that must be stopped.

    Or a raid party led by Clerics, Mages, Fighers and Assassins of Lolth, tracking down the traitorous Viconia finally find her with Divinations and ambush her.

    That's much more believable than "a random NPC kills them".
  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 631
    So what is Cernd's ending like? I have never seen it because, well, you all know why. Nice enough portrait, decent voice acting, but ohmygod is he a useless character. Especially because the wolfwere shape amounts to like... diseased gibberling quality.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited May 2014
    Archaos said:

    @SionIV Still, even if we pretend that the actual cap the characters reach is 20 and everything beyond that is non-canon, a 20 level Cleric or Blackguard are quite challenging.

    Dorn can still cast Draw Upon Holy Might to buff himself or summon a really powerful undead.
    And Viconia can still cast all her very powerful protections and spells.

    Hell, even naked or in clothes (VERY unlikely for 20 level characters) and with no spells memorized, they can still put on a fight or use a few basic items.

    I fully agree with you that as a level 20 blackguard he should easily be able to stand up against most of the things that are thrown at him. Just like Viconia being a level 20 cleric and DROW should be able to survive a poison.

    In my opinion 18-25 is more canon than the level 30-40 you can reach in the game.

    Take a look at my half-elf fighter/mage.

    STR - 23 (Deck, Tome, Lum's machine, Hell trial)
    DEX - 20 (Tome, Lum's machine)
    CON - 22 (Tome, Lum's machine, Hell trial)
    INT - 20 (Tome, Lum's machine)
    WIS - 21 (Tomes, Lum's machine)
    CHA - 12 (Tome, Lum's machine) - With the ring of human influence and a friend spell he'll have 24 Charisma.

    24F/20M.

    He could pretty much wreck anything and anyone in Fearun that isn't a god. He could slice up Demi gods without problem. It just isn't realistic.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    xzar_monty said:

    So what is Cernd's ending like? I have never seen it because, well, you all know why. Nice enough portrait, decent voice acting, but ohmygod is he a useless character. Especially because the wolfwere shape amounts to like... diseased gibberling quality.

    Becomes a Grand Druid to help out nature.
    Son gets ignored.
    Son gets hold of twisted magic and commands an army that could destroy the sword coast.
    Gives up his position as Grand Druid to repair his relationship with his son.
    They end up fighting.
    Both die.
    Tree grows on the spot they die.


    You can find his epilogue here - http://www.gamebanshee.com/baldursgateii/npcs/cernd.php#null
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    @SionIV‌

    I prefer your version of Cernd's ending to the original. It sounds so much like an afterthought, just the way Cernd was in the game.
  • Demonoid_LimewireDemonoid_Limewire Member Posts: 424
    And don't forget Sarevok, dear! The poor man, endured through death, lend us a hell of a hand against those monstrosities in ToB, and saw through our ascension, only to depart randomly, kill off a large number of orcs, and disappear forever, going to bury his true love... Which died despite ME allowing her to leave unharmed, in 1... Poor man lost everything, and finally got lost himself, too! Literally...
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    Demonoid_Limewire said:

    And don't forget Sarevok, dear! The poor man, endured through death, lend us a hell of a hand against those monstrosities in ToB, and saw through our ascension, only to depart randomly, kill off a large number of orcs, and disappear forever, going to bury his true love... Which died despite ME allowing her to leave unharmed, in 1... Poor man lost everything, and finally got lost himself, too! Literally...

    But he kind of deserved it for all the pain and suffering he had caused.

    Now what have Cernd done to deserve his ending? His most heinous crime must be peeing on a flower or something.
  • MhamzaMhamza Member Posts: 228
    Sarevok and Dorn both lusted after power, why couldn't they have just been made chosen of evil Charname, even Sarevok says in a conversation something about becoming Charname's right hand man, throw in Viconia as high priestess to complete the set and there's no reason they should have suffered the endings they did.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    Mhamza said:

    Sarevok and Dorn both lusted after power, why couldn't they have just been made chosen of evil Charname, even Sarevok says in a conversation something about becoming Charname's right hand man, throw in Viconia as high priestess to complete the set and there's no reason they should have suffered the endings they did.

    Probably because if you're playing with those NPC's in your party, you're evil yourself. Why would you share your power with them? You reached your goal and don't need to share or give anything to them.
  • MhamzaMhamza Member Posts: 228
    SionIV said:


    Probably because if you're playing with those NPC's in your party, you're evil yourself. Why would you share your power with them? You reached your goal and don't need to share or give anything to them.

    Yes but evil Charname would be a newly ascended deity in desperate need for worshipers and would also have to deal with Cyric eventually, who has millions of worshipers and so is much more powerful as a greator god.
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    @Mhamza When you become the new Lord of Murder, you get all the portfolio and worshippers of Bhaal or Cyric. (That's why Cyric was afraid that you might be a threat to his power).

    At best, you would make Dorn one of their Chosen, along with Viconia and other NPCs, perhaps.
  • MhamzaMhamza Member Posts: 228
    Archaos said:

    When you become the new Lord of Murder, you get all the portfolio and worshippers of Bhaal or Cyric. (That's why Cyric was afraid that you might be a threat to his power).

    So would the church of Bhaal be divided between Charname and Cyric like Bane's was divided between Cyric and Iyachtu Xvim when he died?

    Also, would Charname gain the worshippers automatically, I mean surely word would have to be spread about the ascension of the new Lord of Murder before he could gain followers, and who better to do that then the people who helped you ascend?
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Mhamza said:

    B. Becomes pals with Drizzt.

    Truly, a fate worse than death.
  • MhamzaMhamza Member Posts: 228
    jackjack said:



    Truly, a fate worse than death.

    I meant that that's her ending even if you play evil, seems a bit out of character.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    That's a big reason why I can't play BG2 without Ascension - the evil epilogues it adds for Viconia and Sarevok are perfectly appropriate.

    Viconia:

    Viconia traveled only for a short time after parting ways with CHARNAME, eventually starting a cult dedicated to Shar within the massive city of Waterdeep. One of her followers would eventually turn against her, precipitating a furious Viconia to slaughter the entire cult, herself. Shar did not forgive Viconia this trespass and removed her abilities. Viconia stubbornly refused to atone, however, and instead left Waterdeep to wander the Realms. The dark elf became known as an enigmatic and powerful figure as tales of her spread...and while it was known she no longer worshipped Shar, it was also known that her clerical powers were still great. Who the dark lady now worshipped, however, was her own secret to keep. She reportedly raised an army against the Vaasan Witch-King, viciously attempting to subvert rule over his Kingdom and only barely being defeated after several military failures. Viconia prevented an attempt by the Knights of the Shield to take over Calimport...only to take over the city herself days later and institute a reign of terror and cruelty which is spoken of even years later in shuddered tones. Viconia abandoned Calimport and, it is said, returned to the Underdark from whence she came. Hers was not a gentle return, however, as Viconia would become a conquering force amongst the drow to give even Lolth pause. Her mettle had been tested by both worlds, Viconia said, and proven herself worthy. She would make the drow strong whereas now they were weak. What eventually became of Viconia is unknown and shrouded in rumor...but it is said that even the great Spider Queen does not rest easily any more.


    Sarevok:

    Upon parting ways with CHARNAME, the reborn Sarevok proved as good as his word. He returned to the lands he once knew, far more powerful now than he was even before. Old enemies were startled by his visits, but never for long, and it was not even months later that Sarevok would start a reign of terror in Baldur's Gate that would place him completely in charge of the city. Resistance was crushed as Sarevok began raising an army for conquest in his own name. If he could not have the divine power of his father, he would have enough earthly power to satiate his appetite. Sarevok partook of women as he pleased as his name became a bitter epithet on the tongue of every citizen of the Sword Coast. The first victims of his terrible army fell easily, and Sarevok's power grew. The warrior was maddened, however, to find that the victories gave him no thrill. The power tasted as ashes, though Sarevok tried many times to drive himself into a frenzy of delight at his achievements. In the end, his throne grew heavy, and it was with dread acceptance that he greeted the arrival of the inevitable heroes to displace him not a year after his return. Sarevok fled into the night, abandoning Baldur's Gate and his dreams of power both. He became a man haunted by his second chance, hunted by a former life that never was and a possible life that never could be. Without a destiny and or a true soul of his own, he wandered the Realms. Sometimes he brought terror and sometimes he brought nothing but his tired heart, and before long he was gone forever. Some say that he found his purpose in the great desert, forging a kingdom to last an age. Some say he traveled to the planes, launching a campaign against the great Mount Celestia. The truth is unknown, though the tales still persist.
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