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Enhance the Undead Hunter's Turn Undead Ability

BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
edited May 2014 in Feature Requests
In @Elrandir's thread on people's favorite Paladin kit (including true class Paladin), a discussion took off regarding the Undead Hunter's Turn Undead ability. As the Undead Hunter is widely considered to be the least useful Paladin kit, I asked for people's opinions on a possible enhancement of the Undead Hunter's Turn Undead ability, such that it would be on par with that of a single class Cleric. This idea has been well-received so far.

The purpose of the current topic is to have more opinions on this matter, discuss different ways of enhancing the Undead Hunter's TU ability (or other anti-undead powers?), and in case of sufficient interest, to request that the Undead Hunter's TU ability be enhanced in a balanced way that people agree on.

For your convenience I've quoted the opinions stated in the aforementioned thread:

@Blackraven said:
Speaking of Undead Hunters, arguably the weakest of three kits, would you folks think it would be nice if their Turn Undead were better (more or less on par with that of a Cleric)?

@Elrandir said:
I personally would appreciate some sort of added plus to the Undead Hunter. I love the class in theory, but I couldn't even begin to justify them in my mind as opposed to a cavalier or inquisitor. They're not bad, per se, just outclassed by every thing else. (well, besides unkitted paladins)

@Gallowglass said:
Yes, that'd make a lot of sense thematically, and the Undead Hunter could do with a bit of a boost to compete with the other Paladin kits. Excellent idea! (-> Feature Requests?)

@Blackraven said:
Don't know how it would have to be implemented though. Maybe something like Turn Undead ability starts out as that of a Cleric (TU level 1 at character creation), and every 5 levels a bonus Turn Undead level is gained, starting at level 5? That way the Undead Hunter's Turn Undead would end up exactly as powerful as that of a single class Cleric by the ToB XP cap.
Or do you reckon the Undead Hunter's TU progression should even be better than a Cleric's? It could be argued, as for the Cleric fighting Undead is just one many things they do, whereas Undead Hunters dedicate their lives to it.

@booinyoureyes said:
It would be cool if it did a certain amount of damage per second to undead or if they had an ability to give their allies a to-hit bonus against undead.

@FinaLfront said:
Undead Hunter would be my favorite if they were renamed, and had better things going for them. The inquisitor gets to dispel at double his level. Why not have the Undead Hunter Turn at 2 or even 3 levels better than a single class cleric? They are Undead Hunters

@Gallowglass said:
@Blackraven, @booinyoureyes, @FinaLfront: we seem to be building a consensus that Undead Hunters ought to have a little further boost. I wouldn't want to advocate too large a change, though. I think Turn Undead equal to a singleclass Cleric would be good, but remember that Priests of Lathander are also (in canon FR lore) specially dedicated to opposing undead, and that's also a kit in the game, so it wouldn't make sense for the Undead Hunter to be even better at Turning than a Priest who is also an anti-undead specialist. Therefore I reckon "equally as good" is a credible plan, but "better" would be over-the-top.

@abacus said:
I've also pondered the Undead Hunter's comparatively meagre Turning capabilities… it should at least be significantly better than that of a standard Paladin (or other kit).

Is anyone aware of a variable that can be tweaked in EEKeeper? I might have a play with that if so…

EDIT: Apparently it's not possible to quote from other threads without losing the quotation, so I had to adapt the text.

Comments

  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    edited May 2014
    Possibly they could gain a cast of Sunray/ day every 10 levels?

    Or would that be too powerful (as a level 7 spell)?

    Perhaps as a HLA?

    Edit: Or maybe something like Fireshield (damages enemy when they hit), but it only affects Undead?
  • DungeonnoobDungeonnoob Member Posts: 315
    I never tested the turn ability,what happens?
    Do they flee,blow up or join you?

    Give them harms,1 every 5th level:)
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited May 2014
    It would be a nice additional feature that wouldn't be too game breaking and fit into their lore.

    But also when we say : "Speaking of Undead Hunters, arguably the weakest of three kits,"

    Even though the undead hunter is the weakest paladin kit, it is by far one of the strongest kits in the game. It's pretty much better than every single ranger kit, most fighter kits and most other kits as well. I don't feel that the undead hunter need a feature like this because they are weak, i feel it would be nice to have a feature like this because it would fit the class.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited May 2014
    Dungeonnoob said:

    I never tested the turn ability,what happens?
    Do they flee,blow up or join you?

    Give them harms,1 every 5th level:)

    The undead won't join the Undead Hunter, but depending on the UH's TU level, they may flee or explode :)

    Harms are nice, not only against Undead. @abacus' idea of giving the UH access to some of the anti-undead cleric spells could make sense (Sunray, False Dawn). One would have to be careful with balance issues though.

    Edit: @SionIV, that's an interesting point. I hadn't really looked at the Undead Hunter in comparison to other, non-Paladin kits. But like you, I didn't think the UH *needs* the enhancement, it's mostly to make them a bit more attracttive and a bit more fitting of their Kit.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited May 2014
    Another option could be to give them a special ability that lets them summon a weapon, like the priest of helm. It will get better as he gains levels and will be effective against undead.

    Blackraven's kinky sword.

    1 round per level.

    Level 1 :

    Thac0 +1 (+2 vs undead)
    1d8 +1 (+2 vs undead)
    10% chance on hit to destroy undead.

    Level 7 :

    Thac0 +2 (+3 vs undead)
    1d8 +2 (+3 vs undead)
    15% chance on hit to destroy undead.
    Immune to disease.

    Level 13 :

    Thac0 +2 (+4 vs undead)
    1d8 +2 (+4 vs undead)
    20% chance on hit to destroy undead.
    Immune to disease.
    Fire shield (Red).

    Might be a bit much, but would be fun to have something like that to use, especially at lower levels. It also wouldn't be that useful against enemies that aren't undead. I've totally fallen in love with the seekers sword the priest of helm get. In my opinion there are enough undead in the game to make it worth playing a class that focuses on them.
  • DungeonnoobDungeonnoob Member Posts: 315
    @booinyoureyes said:
    It would be cool if it did a certain amount of damage per second to undead or if they had an ability to give their allies a to-hit bonus against undead.

    Think Boo´s idea is the best so far,maybe a unholy aura that gives 1d6 dmg on hits (vs UH) or a hold undead spell.Chasing fleeing skellys with +3 to hit and dmg isn't my idea of fun:)
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    @Blackraven‌
    I'd forgotten False Dawn... That would actually fit better, as it only damages undead.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    @SionIV, I really like the idea for a special once or twice per day weapon. And that name you came up with is golden of course :D
    @Dungeonnoob, I think the aura you mentioned could work as well, though I would call it Holy Aura, as aopposed to Unholy ;) If such an Aura would be implemented it would have to scale with level progression I think.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    Another option would be to let them dual class to a cleric of Lathander, but i'm not sure that's even possible because of hard coding.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Overall I'd say a "sunburst" type ability would be best. Like turning undead that does damage per second to all undead in the area. Or it might do less damage but debuff them or add bonuses to allies attacks upon them. Kinda like a bard-song effect.
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    edited May 2014
    booinyoureyes said:

    btw, for me, immunity to level drain is *huge*. I hate carrying those scrolls around and memorizing restoration.

    I'm with you... It's probably my most hated effect... Leaving you with the choice between a gimped character and an exhausted character.

    Does anyone else feel that perhaps the major reason the Undead Hunter is underrated is that by the time undead start to really kick in, you already have access to the MoDisruption, the destroying axe & the AoPower?

    Edit: Like, here come the big nasties but it's ok, because 2 of your group already render them impotent, and 2 of your group can smash them apart like gibberlings...
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    But the Barbarian and Berserker have an even better ability and is also immune to level drain. It really isn't enough when you compare the paladin to the Berserker/Barbarian, etc.
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    SionIV said:

    But the Barbarian and Berserker have an even better ability and is also immune to level drain. It really isn't enough when you compare the paladin to the Berserker/Barbarian, etc.

    True story.
    But I still feel that the Mace of Disruption +2 is Shield of Balduran level of broken!
    Anomen with MoD+2 can pretty much waltz through Bhodi's lair.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    @Dee, depending on levels, single-class Cleric's Turn Undead ability can make undead explode rather than run away. Holding undead (instead of scaring them off) would indeed be great if it were feasible. But I could live with the Undead Hunter's Turn Undead ability as a defensive tool instead of offensive. I can see an UH being overwhelmed by undead monsters and wanting them to go away. That's where a good Cleric-style TU ability would be nice. Like you I don't consider it a must, but rather a nice feature to increase the UH's competitiveness vis-a-vis Inquisitors and Cavaliers.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    edited May 2014
    ATM none of the requests are difficult to implement in the IE, keep the ideas coming guys!!
    Also, I keep realizing that all the fighter classes would be better if they get rebalanced, I'll see of changing that in the future.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited May 2014
    Dungeonnoob said:

    I never tested the turn ability,what happens?
    Do they flee,blow up or join you?

    Give them harms,1 every 5th level:)

    If your cleric is between 2-6 levels above the undead opponent the undead will flee.

    If your cleric is 7+ levels above the opponent the undead is destroyed/becomes controlled (depending upon your alignment).

    Paladin's turn undead is considered to be I think 2 levels behind a clerics. So to cause fleeing you'd have to be 4 levels ahead of the enemy and to cause an enemies destruction/to gain control you'd have to be 9 levels ahead of that enemy.
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    @elminster‌
    What are the rough levels of major undead types? (Are they still similar to the table you kindly posted above?)

    Purely for my edification… :)
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    @‌elminster

    You're great, dude. :)
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    edited May 2014
    Another option in the uses/day category would be something like the Blackguard's 'Aura of Despair'... But that only affects undead.
    So it doesn't actually kill or damage undead, but they are physically weakened or debilitated by the UH's presence.

    Edit: Fixin' typos
  • hellwalker31hellwalker31 Member Posts: 16
    I think best addition would be "protection from undead". No class has this ability but only scrolls which you can buy rarely. Also repulse undead, control undead, hold undead (actually it is a low level spell) would be nice. Well hold undead might be as effective as dispel magic for inquisitors. With things going on, blackguard is much more better instead of UH sice it also has level drain immunity and also poison weapon, absorb health...
    I actually think cavalier immunities are not that good. Fear and charm? Resist fear is the lowest spell 1 can use with a nice duration. For charm, they are rarely effective except by strong opponents like vamps, succubus, alu fiend etc which u can negate them with chaotic commands.
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714
    edited May 2019
    I Hate Undead has the PnP version of the Undead Hunter (that should be called Ghost Hunter). This version is slightly stronger than the one provided by vanilla.
  • ArcnNKDArcnNKD Member Posts: 28
    *Casts Raise Thread*

    There are a couple of routes you can go to tweaking Undead Hunter, I think.

    First, you can give it an innate use of Hold Undead every few levels or so, say once at 1st and then additional use at 5th, 9th, 13th, 17th or something like that.

    Then, you could take the Holy Smite spell and create a new version that targets Undead instead of 'Evil' in NearInfinity and call it something like 'Smite Undead' and give them that as an innate ability once every 10 levels or so.

    I do think giving them Turn Undead as a Cleric of equivalent level is a good option as well.
  • TrouveurTrouveur Member Posts: 631
    The Artisan have an undead hunter kit rework in its Kitpack : https://artisans-corner.com/the-artisans-kitpack/

    UNDEAD HUNTER: This holy avenger has honed <PRO_HISHER> abilities toward the destruction of the undead and other unnatural creatures and is immune to many of their most devastating abilities.

    Advantages:
    – +3 bonus to hit and damage rolls against undead creatures.
    – Immune to Hold, Level Drain and Death Magic.
    – Turn Undead’s effectiveness is as a cleric of the same level.
    – May use Smite Undead three times per day.

    SMITE UNDEAD: The undead hunter’s next successful attack on an undead creature forces them to make a save vs. death or be destroyed. If the save is made, the target takes 1d6 + 1d6 additional damage per 3 levels of the undead hunter instead.

    – 3rd level: Gains Aura of Sanctity.

    AURA OF SANCTITY: The undead hunter exudes an aura which protects their allies from undead and necromantic magic. All allies within visual range of the undead hunter gain a +2 bonus to Armor Class and Saving Throws vs. undead, in addition to scaling bonuses to hit and damage vs. undead and bonuses to saving throws vs. necromancy.
    3rd – +3 to hit and damage vs. undead and save vs. necromancy.
    10th – +3 to hit and damage vs. undead and save vs. necromancy. Allies become immune to hold.
    17th – +3 to hit and damage vs. undead and save vs. necromancy. Allies become immune to hold and level drain.
    24th – +3 to hit and damage vs. undead and save vs. necromancy. Allies become immune to hold, level drain and death magic.

    – 5rd level: Smite Undead’s save modifier reduced to -1.
    – 9th level: Smite Undead’s save modifier reduced to -2.
    – 13th level: Smite Undead’s save modifier reduced to -3.
    – 15th level: Gains three additional uses of Smite Undead.
    – 17th level: Smite Undead’s save modifier reduced to -4.

    Disadvantages:
    – May not use Lay on Hands.
    – May not use Smite Evil.
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