And how are any of those bonus spells that ranger / clerics get anymore broken than other dual / multiclasses?
Because its not explained and impossible for a Ranger to get otherwise.
Maybe rangers and druids worship the same gods. But due to rangers focusing more on weapons, they don't develop their spell abilities as much. After dual classing to a cleric, they lose focus on weapons and devote themselves to both their ranger / druidic god, and to their new cleric god, granting them spells that both those gods provide for single class clerics or druids.
And how are any of those bonus spells that ranger / clerics get anymore broken than other dual / multiclasses?
Because its not explained and impossible for a Ranger to get otherwise.
Maybe rangers and druids worship the same gods. But due to rangers focusing more on weapons, they don't develop their spell abilities as much. After dual classing to a cleric, they lose focus on weapons and devote themselves to both their ranger / druidic god, and to their new cleric god, granting them spells that both those gods provide for single class clerics or druids.
Its certainly possible that they are worshiping more than one god, but no explanation is actually given which is my point. In fact it doesn't even mention druid spells at all in the description of the class (only the "abilities of the cleric and ranger". So this at the moment is not like for instance an explained phenomena in game like a cleric of lathander gaining the boon of lathander because he worships lathander.
I think the main point is, the reason the class is how it is today is due to lazy oversights. As such, it should be revisited. Whether this revisit results in butchering the entire purpose of the class, or doing absolutely nothing at all, or something in-between, is irrelevant ... it should be looked over again, regardless of what your opinion is on the matter.
(And this is coming from someone who doesn't want C/Rs to change at all.)
I think the main point is, the reason the class is how it is today is due to lazy oversights. As such, it should be revisited. Whether this revisit results in butchering the entire purpose of the class, or doing absolutely nothing at all, or something in-between, is irrelevant ... it should be looked over again, regardless of what your opinion is on the matter.
(And this is coming from someone who doesn't want C/Rs to change at all.)
I agree with this. Laziness is what created this whole mess to begin with and it should be addressed at this point in some way.
One thing a lot of people have said is that being able to play Ranger / Clerics makes druids, fighter / druids, fighter / clerics useless.
My opinions on this:
For multiclass characters, Ranger / Cleric is better than Fighter / Cleric, but if it wasn't and they didn't get the druid spells, what would be different about the two classes? Nothing. The fix for this isn't to nerf ranger / clerics, the fix would be to buff multi classed fighters to be able to reach grandmastery (which can already be done using mods).
For dual classing, fighter / clerics can reach grandmastery and also level up faster so will make stronger melee focused characters than ranger / clerics.
Druids are not made obsolete by any of this because they still have their shapeshifting abilities. Avengers and Shapeshifters get huge spell casting and / or shapeshifting bonuses that make them worth playing, totemic druids have powerful summons that no one else has access to. If you've actually never tried to play these classes yourself, then don't state that ranger / clerics make them obsolete. A greater werewolf with -10 AC is nothing weak for example.
They gave him the amulet as a work-around for not coding in Red Wizard. Thayvians are essentially double specialists in a given specialist mage school. They get more spells per day (and they should be getting increased spell power in the chosen school) as a result, but should actually have incurred another barred school. They didn't code in a way for mages to have more powerful spells, so I'm fine with them just implementing the extra spells part without incurring another barred school.
The transmuter lady that joins you in NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer is a good example of a red wizard as they should work. She gets some stupid like +6 DC vs. Transmutation, which means she spams disintegrates which very, very, very few enemies can save against.
One thing a lot of people have said is that being able to play Ranger / Clerics makes druids, fighter / druids, fighter / clerics useless.
My opinions on this:
For multiclass characters, Ranger / Cleric is better than Fighter / Cleric, but if it wasn't and they didn't get the druid spells, what would be different about the two classes? Nothing. The fix for this isn't to nerf ranger / clerics, the fix would be to buff multi classed fighters to be able to reach grandmastery (which can already be done using mods).
For dual classing, fighter / clerics can reach grandmastery and also level up faster so will make stronger melee focused characters than ranger / clerics.
Druids are not made obsolete by any of this because they still have their shapeshifting abilities. Avengers and Shapeshifters get huge spell casting and / or shapeshifting bonuses that make them worth playing, totemic druids have powerful summons that no one else has access to. If you've actually never tried to play these classes yourself, then don't state that ranger / clerics make them obsolete. A greater werewolf with -10 AC is nothing weak for example.
You seem to want to discuss this. I will now humour you with such a long post that even the gods themselves would not bother to read this purely because they would get bored halfway along.
Compared to a fighter/cleric, cleric/rangers would get stealth skills (meaning they don't necessarily need to memorise sanctuary), druid spells 1-3, favoured enemies, and eventually the HLA "tracking". I mean, that means you'd still get such spells as charm person and animal (not to be confused with the rangers ability), summon insects, AND call lightning. Whats not to love?
Though you did not mention them, the druids bear and wolf shapeshifting forms are next to useless. Namely because you don't get them until level 7, and by that point they are underpowered compared to a non-shapeshifted druid (especially one with the gloves of ogre strength on). To go off your point the avengers and shapeshifter forms are the only ones that are worth considering, especially the sword spider. Assuming they can and do fix the problem of it getting caught in your own web they would be a good thing to have in BG:EE, though by itself its speed and damage are already very good. But that all depends upon when you gain access to those forms in BG:EE. That is important especially because in BG:EE you are going to be stuck with either 16 or eventually 17 strength if you are an avenger, which actually provides a balance to the class that makes up for those "huge" spell casting bonuses you refer to (which I will discuss later in this ridiculously long post). As an avenger its not like you can just swallow a potion of strength after all, you are stuck with that crappy strength for most of the first game...
So I don't think that the power of avengers compared to other druid kits will really end up being noteworthy, even if they end up limiting the weapon immunities of the totemic druids summoning at lower levels (which I suppose they could end up doing). Totemic druids summons are certainly useful summons as it stands now in tutu/BGT and in the early parts of BG2, but their future usefulness will really depend on if there are any changes to balance the kit for earlier encounters. I find that a lot of the more difficult encounters generally don't involve someones chance to hit me being the problem (Sarevok and ice arrow chill bandits being the two exceptions), rather things like feeblemind or mind affecting/ stat affecting spells being used against my party members or summons (damn you wizard in front of the friendly arm inn!!!). The type of things that would negate the usefulness of these summons regardless of an enemies chance to hit them, though having summons at level 1 regardless of their strength is useful in and of itself.
If they don't make the shapeshifter get access to his werewolf form at level 1 then for the next 6 levels he's going to have a fair amount of problems given that he can't wear any armor and is only able to use bucklers (which provide no missile defence and there are no enchanted ones in I believe the entire series). Though the avenger can use ankheg armor the shapeshifter cannot. So he's probably going to be stuck in a support role slinging bullets or throwing darts before frankly he becomes any sense of the word useful. So depending upon how or if they make any changes to the game, totemic druids may become the default option for melee druids for most of the first game (at least until werewolf shapeshifting is available) because of the fact that they are going to be the only ones that can have 18 strength along with studded leather armour. That last point really has nothing to do with what you are saying, I just figured at this point that I'm so committed to writing this that I'd probably point it out for the hell of it.
Shapeshifters I agree are actually pretty strong AC wise, but I think the issue is they lose out on the amount of damage they can inflict as well as their thaco. Thaco by ToB doesn't really matter so much, but you'll probably be doing like 10-15 damage a hit with each attack, perhaps a little more, perhaps a little less. I mean you get the benefit of more attacks per round, but haste negates some of that. I know I was getting around that amount of damage at level 30 as a character soloing a shapeshifter in greater werewolf form (which is why I stopped using it long before that point and only tried it now for test reasons). I would say the benefit of the shapeshifter over another druid kit is really only for the werewolfs magic resistances/other resistance (especially fire,cold, and electricity) and generally just the end of BG:EE and part of SoA. I mean as a melee character the greater werewolf gets eclipsed in its thaco by a regular druid with good equipment certainly before the end of SoA, and as I've already suggested the amount of physical damage it can deal out as we know was limited by the game designers. It also doesn't gain any bonuses to health over the druid it shapeshifts from, which personally I always considered to be kind of weird.
Let's not go overselling here. Avengers get moderately useful spell casting bonuses, but they are not "huge" and given the consequences that the kit takes they are justifiable. Namely, chromatic orb and web and two of the better spells. They get other things that are less useful like lightning bolt, improved invisibility (which given your access to pixie dust is really only useful for the defensive benefits), chaos (which I've never been a fan of since it doesn't really work well with any of the other druid spells - you aren't the type of character who excels at picking off individual targets with high amounts of damage as they scurry around everywhere), and chain lightning (at level 6 its really not that useful considering you have lots of useful spell alternatives at that level). So maybe 3 of the spells are notably helpful, but again in order to get access to them you only will end up having a maximum of 16 strength at character generation as well as 16 constitution ( the latter of which really only matters if you plan on using the claw of kazgaroth). Plus you have to deal with the pesky chance that they will cause someone to turn to stone using chromatic orb at the end of BG:EE and very beginning of SoA (or sooner if you are soloing), and let me tell you that sucks royally for those interested in keeping items intact! (though it is great for instantly killing that vampire in Irenicus's dungeon).
So, to sum up an incredible long post. The power of druids next to say a cleric/ranger will entirely depend on how they approach druid kits in BG:EE with respect to the abilities they get. Since druids generally gain access to spells quicker to clerics at earlier levels, in the case of the shapeshifter and totemic druid how they are dealt with in BG:EE is going to have a big impact on how useful they are in the series in general compared to something like a cleric/ranger or avenger. So basically are single-class druids "useless" next to cleric/ranger multiclasses or dual ranger/cleric's? , no, but because of the ability of the aforementioned classes to get access to druid spells from 4-7 their overall usefulness is substantially reduced given their existing built-in limitations.
Plus like I've been trying to say lately. The existence of their access to these spells is not actually explained anywhere (in terms of in-game lore), which I think is part of the problem here.
Sword Spiders + Werewolf shapeshifting, plus the Totemic Druid's summons are the strengths of these classes. The only purpose that the basic druid has is to be multiclassed or dualed from a fighter if you want. However all druids also gain the fire and earth elemental HLAs, both of these are very powerful and Ranger / Clerics do not get that.
Im not really bothered about whether or not its included in the lore, its a feature that was present in the game since its original day of release, and therefore it wont be changed.
Please keep it as it is. Without this "feature" this multiclass will lose all her attractive.
I'm inclined to agree (though still think a Ranger/Cleric is pretty good anyway, even with higher level Druid spells nerfed, it just depends how you play it), also correct me if I'm wrong, but if you don't want to "cheat" by accessing Druid spells beyond level 3 as a Ranger/Cleric, then you can just choose not select them, no? AFAIK you don't actually get any additional spell slots that you shouldn't (if so, *that* should definitely be fixed, however).
I'm sorry but who GENUINELY ignores all Druid spells from level 3 upwards when playing a Ranger / Cleric for the sake of 'balance'. No-one! That's who!
Without Druid spells over level 3 the Ranger / Cleric will still be VERY GOOD and also FITTING within the lore of 2nd edition DnD! (And also TOTALLY different to the Cleric / Fighter!) Otherwise he's just as broken as the Sorcerer, which they should totally fix by implementing charisma correctly... but then again I guess a lot of people would moan that it would change the original intention of the game REGARDLESS of how it was meant to be implemented.
My golly this thread is annoying, stop wanting this game to be any easier than it already is! I bet a lot of people don't install Rogue Rebalancing, or at least the mod component that makes dual-wielding more akin to its 3rd edition counterpart, where penalties apply if the weapon in the off-hand is not a small sized weapon. "But then it means I can't wield Belm in my off-hand without suffering a further -2 penalty waaaa waaaa!"
also correct me if I'm wrong, but if you don't want to "cheat" by accessing Druid spells beyond level 3 as a Ranger/Cleric, then you can just choose not select them, no?
In what other gaming context would you ever recommend that the player constantly and consciously work around broken mechanics as a viable playstyle?
Ranger/Clerics in BG play as Druid/Clerics, which isn't an allowed multi-class in the game.
They dont play as druid / clerics as they dont get shapeshifting or druid HLAs.
Theres a difference between broken and fun. This isnt an MMO that needs to be perfectly balanced, there are lots of completely OP class combinations, and all of them make the game immensely more fun for lots of players. If you dont like that, then you dont have to play such classes.
Some class combinations may very well be overpowered ... but they're within the ethos of 2nd edition DnD rules ... Rangers gaining Druid spells above level 3 in the class combo Cleric / Ranger isn't. What is so difficult to understand?
Let's just make a fucking Mage / Druid class combo that uses dexterity as its main stat, with a minimum of 18 upon character creation. HEY it's not in the 2nd edition rules BUT WHO CARES! It's fun and by no means overpowered since BLAH BLAH BLAH lalalala not listening! Hey if you don't like it don't use it! Or at the very least use it BUT IGNORE ONE HALF OF THE CLASS COMBO! Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!
I bet all these anti-change morons are Romney supporters ... hahahahahahahahaa
Let's just make a fucking Mage / Druid class combo that uses dexterity as its main stat, with a minimum of 18 upon character creation. HEY it's not in the 2nd edition rules BUT WHO CARES! It's fun and by no means overpowered since BLAH BLAH BLAH lalalala not listening! Hey if you don't like it don't use it! Or at the very least use it BUT IGNORE ONE HALF OF THE CLASS COMBO! Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!
I bet all these anti-change morons are Romney supporters ... hahahahahahahahaa
Lots of people on this thread are from Europe, or in my case Canada, so they can't vote in the US presidential election.
Let's just make a fucking Mage / Druid class combo that uses dexterity as its main stat, with a minimum of 18 upon character creation. HEY it's not in the 2nd edition rules BUT WHO CARES! It's fun and by no means overpowered since BLAH BLAH BLAH lalalala not listening! Hey if you don't like it don't use it! Or at the very least use it BUT IGNORE ONE HALF OF THE CLASS COMBO! Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!
I bet all these anti-change morons are Romney supporters ... hahahahahahahahaa
Lots of people on this thread are from Europe, or in my case Canada, so they can't vote in the US presidential election.
Neither am I (UK) but I just felt like making a dig since Romney is a monster of a human being and most likely anti-change to the Cleric / Ranger
Let's just make a fucking Mage / Druid class combo that uses dexterity as its main stat, with a minimum of 18 upon character creation. HEY it's not in the 2nd edition rules BUT WHO CARES! It's fun and by no means overpowered since BLAH BLAH BLAH lalalala not listening! Hey if you don't like it don't use it! Or at the very least use it BUT IGNORE ONE HALF OF THE CLASS COMBO! Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!
I bet all these anti-change morons are Romney supporters ... hahahahahahahahaa
Lots of people on this thread are from Europe, or in my case Canada, so they can't vote in the US presidential election.
Neither am I (UK) but I just felt like making a dig since Romney is a monster of a human being and most likely anti-change to the Cleric / Ranger
Romney is more likely to support the existence of Cleric/Rangers one day, then decide that suddenly they are totally illegitimate a week later, then go back to supporting them a few weeks after that.
They dont play as druid / clerics as they dont get shapeshifting or druid HLAs.
Yeah, they do. They get all the casting benefits of Druids with several big drawbacks removed (no huge level 14 XP hump, raise dead, turn undead, no armor restrictions).
Theres a difference between broken and fun. This isnt an MMO that needs to be perfectly balanced, there are lots of completely OP class combinations, and all of them make the game immensely more fun for lots of players.
And I'd largely agree, except the current implementation is against the game's stated rules, class descriptions, and likely developer intent.
Umm, that website lists the number of people voting who have voted for each candidate before you even vote. That, on top of the fact that you can't vote for any other candidate, just seems statistically like an excellent way to bias a voting sample. I mean I get its for fun, its just hard to take seriously.
Personally I enjoyed playing Ranger/Cleric as a more moderate optimisation option, whilst being an interesting and enjoyable class that plays differently to most any other.
If the Ranger/Cleric were to lose its spell access, then I would expect them to have 10 level 1, 2 and 3 spells as a base at level 16, and 12 at level 20. If they have that, then fine, strip their high level spells from them if it will make the game more enjoyable to play, if they don't, then those saying that they should be "rules legal" and drop higher level Druid spells have no basis for their argument.
As an aside, personally I find it rather offensive to be associated with Mitt Romney due to enjoying the Ranger/Cleric as is, and would suggest that only a Hitler supporter would make such a suggestion.
Leaving politics out of this discussion is a no-brainer. It is an emotional and volatile subject that will only distract from the discussion.
A discussion which doesn't actually seem to be going anywhere ...
It has been a fine discussion that has reached the point of redundancy. The fact that agreement hasn't been reached is obvious given the voting. The argument seems primarily this at this point:
* Change it so that it fits with AD&D rules. * Change it because it is a clear bug and/or scripting error. * Change it because it contravenes the written class description and other materials and is not what was intended by the developers. * Change it because it renders other multi-class combinations (f/c and f/d in particular) irrelevant.
and
* Keep it because it is fun. * Keep it because it isn't more broken than other combinations. * Keep it because people who don't like it can just choose not to take the higher level spells so it gives optionaility.
I think the argument actually has progressed as people have acknowledged points and counterpoints and I think a few opinions have changed and more have evolved as they got a deeper understanding of the other side's view.
There isn't going to be a universal agreement on this and that is OK.
Personally I enjoyed playing Ranger/Cleric as a more moderate optimisation option, whilst being an interesting and enjoyable class that plays differently to most any other.
If the Ranger/Cleric were to lose its spell access, then I would expect them to have 10 level 1, 2 and 3 spells as a base at level 16, and 12 at level 20. If they have that, then fine, strip their high level spells from them if it will make the game more enjoyable to play, if they don't, then those saying that they should be "rules legal" and drop higher level Druid spells have no basis for their argument.
As an aside, personally I find it rather offensive to be associated with Mitt Romney due to enjoying the Ranger/Cleric as is, and would suggest that only a Hitler supporter would make such a suggestion.
I've less of a problem with giving them the spells that they would get as a ranger (so eventually +3 for each of the first three levels), though I imagine it would not be easy to implement. There would at least then be some kind of justification for it since rangers at that level would be entitled to those spells. There really are no other classes in the game that have this sort of a problem (there is no bard/mage for instance), so its not something that can be discussed easily on a comparable level. Though, with the benefits you get from wisdom along with items its not that difficult to get a high number of level 1- 3 spells as a cleric (I'm keeping this statement vague because I have not play-tested the maximum number of level 1-3 spells you can get as a cleric and at what levels those would be obtained).
Sword Spiders + Werewolf shapeshifting, plus the Totemic Druid's summons are the strengths of these classes. The only purpose that the basic druid has is to be multiclassed or dualed from a fighter if you want. However all druids also gain the fire and earth elemental HLAs, both of these are very powerful and Ranger / Clerics do not get that.
Im not really bothered about whether or not its included in the lore, its a feature that was present in the game since its original day of release, and therefore it wont be changed.
They get the fire and earth elementals at 3 million experience, but prior to that point it is very easy especially for a ranger dualed to a cleric to gain access to more druid spells than even a druid can get at least until basically that 3 million experience point. Its very bizarre. In fact a ranger dualed at level 7 to a cleric can actually gain access to druid specific level 1, 2 and 3 druid spells, even though he's too low a level as a ranger to get them. He would also get access to level 7 druid spells before even a single-class druid can. Its a different story for multiclasses of course, but regardless its a broken multi/dual class, and it should be addressed even if it is just a justification in the lore.
Comments
(And this is coming from someone who doesn't want C/Rs to change at all.)
Probably the middle choice!
My opinions on this:
For multiclass characters, Ranger / Cleric is better than Fighter / Cleric, but if it wasn't and they didn't get the druid spells, what would be different about the two classes? Nothing. The fix for this isn't to nerf ranger / clerics, the fix would be to buff multi classed fighters to be able to reach grandmastery (which can already be done using mods).
For dual classing, fighter / clerics can reach grandmastery and also level up faster so will make stronger melee focused characters than ranger / clerics.
Druids are not made obsolete by any of this because they still have their shapeshifting abilities. Avengers and Shapeshifters get huge spell casting and / or shapeshifting bonuses that make them worth playing, totemic druids have powerful summons that no one else has access to. If you've actually never tried to play these classes yourself, then don't state that ranger / clerics make them obsolete. A greater werewolf with -10 AC is nothing weak for example.
They gave him the amulet as a work-around for not coding in Red Wizard. Thayvians are essentially double specialists in a given specialist mage school. They get more spells per day (and they should be getting increased spell power in the chosen school) as a result, but should actually have incurred another barred school. They didn't code in a way for mages to have more powerful spells, so I'm fine with them just implementing the extra spells part without incurring another barred school.
The transmuter lady that joins you in NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer is a good example of a red wizard as they should work. She gets some stupid like +6 DC vs. Transmutation, which means she spams disintegrates which very, very, very few enemies can save against.
Compared to a fighter/cleric, cleric/rangers would get stealth skills (meaning they don't necessarily need to memorise sanctuary), druid spells 1-3, favoured enemies, and eventually the HLA "tracking". I mean, that means you'd still get such spells as charm person and animal (not to be confused with the rangers ability), summon insects, AND call lightning. Whats not to love?
Though you did not mention them, the druids bear and wolf shapeshifting forms are next to useless. Namely because you don't get them until level 7, and by that point they are underpowered compared to a non-shapeshifted druid (especially one with the gloves of ogre strength on). To go off your point the avengers and shapeshifter forms are the only ones that are worth considering, especially the sword spider. Assuming they can and do fix the problem of it getting caught in your own web they would be a good thing to have in BG:EE, though by itself its speed and damage are already very good. But that all depends upon when you gain access to those forms in BG:EE. That is important especially because in BG:EE you are going to be stuck with either 16 or eventually 17 strength if you are an avenger, which actually provides a balance to the class that makes up for those "huge" spell casting bonuses you refer to (which I will discuss later in this ridiculously long post). As an avenger its not like you can just swallow a potion of strength after all, you are stuck with that crappy strength for most of the first game...
So I don't think that the power of avengers compared to other druid kits will really end up being noteworthy, even if they end up limiting the weapon immunities of the totemic druids summoning at lower levels (which I suppose they could end up doing). Totemic druids summons are certainly useful summons as it stands now in tutu/BGT and in the early parts of BG2, but their future usefulness will really depend on if there are any changes to balance the kit for earlier encounters. I find that a lot of the more difficult encounters generally don't involve someones chance to hit me being the problem (Sarevok and ice arrow chill bandits being the two exceptions), rather things like feeblemind or mind affecting/ stat affecting spells being used against my party members or summons (damn you wizard in front of the friendly arm inn!!!). The type of things that would negate the usefulness of these summons regardless of an enemies chance to hit them, though having summons at level 1 regardless of their strength is useful in and of itself.
If they don't make the shapeshifter get access to his werewolf form at level 1 then for the next 6 levels he's going to have a fair amount of problems given that he can't wear any armor and is only able to use bucklers (which provide no missile defence and there are no enchanted ones in I believe the entire series). Though the avenger can use ankheg armor the shapeshifter cannot. So he's probably going to be stuck in a support role slinging bullets or throwing darts before frankly he becomes any sense of the word useful. So depending upon how or if they make any changes to the game, totemic druids may become the default option for melee druids for most of the first game (at least until werewolf shapeshifting is available) because of the fact that they are going to be the only ones that can have 18 strength along with studded leather armour. That last point really has nothing to do with what you are saying, I just figured at this point that I'm so committed to writing this that I'd probably point it out for the hell of it.
Shapeshifters I agree are actually pretty strong AC wise, but I think the issue is they lose out on the amount of damage they can inflict as well as their thaco. Thaco by ToB doesn't really matter so much, but you'll probably be doing like 10-15 damage a hit with each attack, perhaps a little more, perhaps a little less. I mean you get the benefit of more attacks per round, but haste negates some of that. I know I was getting around that amount of damage at level 30 as a character soloing a shapeshifter in greater werewolf form (which is why I stopped using it long before that point and only tried it now for test reasons). I would say the benefit of the shapeshifter over another druid kit is really only for the werewolfs magic resistances/other resistance (especially fire,cold, and electricity) and generally just the end of BG:EE and part of SoA. I mean as a melee character the greater werewolf gets eclipsed in its thaco by a regular druid with good equipment certainly before the end of SoA, and as I've already suggested the amount of physical damage it can deal out as we know was limited by the game designers. It also doesn't gain any bonuses to health over the druid it shapeshifts from, which personally I always considered to be kind of weird.
Let's not go overselling here. Avengers get moderately useful spell casting bonuses, but they are not "huge" and given the consequences that the kit takes they are justifiable. Namely, chromatic orb and web and two of the better spells. They get other things that are less useful like lightning bolt, improved invisibility (which given your access to pixie dust is really only useful for the defensive benefits), chaos (which I've never been a fan of since it doesn't really work well with any of the other druid spells - you aren't the type of character who excels at picking off individual targets with high amounts of damage as they scurry around everywhere), and chain lightning (at level 6 its really not that useful considering you have lots of useful spell alternatives at that level). So maybe 3 of the spells are notably helpful, but again in order to get access to them you only will end up having a maximum of 16 strength at character generation as well as 16 constitution ( the latter of which really only matters if you plan on using the claw of kazgaroth). Plus you have to deal with the pesky chance that they will cause someone to turn to stone using chromatic orb at the end of BG:EE and very beginning of SoA (or sooner if you are soloing), and let me tell you that sucks royally for those interested in keeping items intact! (though it is great for instantly killing that vampire in Irenicus's dungeon).
So, to sum up an incredible long post. The power of druids next to say a cleric/ranger will entirely depend on how they approach druid kits in BG:EE with respect to the abilities they get. Since druids generally gain access to spells quicker to clerics at earlier levels, in the case of the shapeshifter and totemic druid how they are dealt with in BG:EE is going to have a big impact on how useful they are in the series in general compared to something like a cleric/ranger or avenger. So basically are single-class druids "useless" next to cleric/ranger multiclasses or dual ranger/cleric's? , no, but because of the ability of the aforementioned classes to get access to druid spells from 4-7 their overall usefulness is substantially reduced given their existing built-in limitations.
Plus like I've been trying to say lately. The existence of their access to these spells is not actually explained anywhere (in terms of in-game lore), which I think is part of the problem here.
Im not really bothered about whether or not its included in the lore, its a feature that was present in the game since its original day of release, and therefore it wont be changed.
Without Druid spells over level 3 the Ranger / Cleric will still be VERY GOOD and also FITTING within the lore of 2nd edition DnD! (And also TOTALLY different to the Cleric / Fighter!) Otherwise he's just as broken as the Sorcerer, which they should totally fix by implementing charisma correctly... but then again I guess a lot of people would moan that it would change the original intention of the game REGARDLESS of how it was meant to be implemented.
My golly this thread is annoying, stop wanting this game to be any easier than it already is! I bet a lot of people don't install Rogue Rebalancing, or at least the mod component that makes dual-wielding more akin to its 3rd edition counterpart, where penalties apply if the weapon in the off-hand is not a small sized weapon. "But then it means I can't wield Belm in my off-hand without suffering a further -2 penalty waaaa waaaa!"
If things are fixed though, I'm sure someone could change it all back with mods, then we'd all be happy.
Ranger/Clerics in BG play as Druid/Clerics, which isn't an allowed multi-class in the game.
Theres a difference between broken and fun. This isnt an MMO that needs to be perfectly balanced, there are lots of completely OP class combinations, and all of them make the game immensely more fun for lots of players. If you dont like that, then you dont have to play such classes.
IT'S NOT FUCKING LEGIT.
I bet all these anti-change morons are Romney supporters ... hahahahahahahahaa
Umm, that website lists the number of people voting who have voted for each candidate before you even vote. That, on top of the fact that you can't vote for any other candidate, just seems statistically like an excellent way to bias a voting sample. I mean I get its for fun, its just hard to take seriously.
If the Ranger/Cleric were to lose its spell access, then I would expect them to have 10 level 1, 2 and 3 spells as a base at level 16, and 12 at level 20. If they have that, then fine, strip their high level spells from them if it will make the game more enjoyable to play, if they don't, then those saying that they should be "rules legal" and drop higher level Druid spells have no basis for their argument.
As an aside, personally I find it rather offensive to be associated with Mitt Romney due to enjoying the Ranger/Cleric as is, and would suggest that only a Hitler supporter would make such a suggestion.
* Change it so that it fits with AD&D rules.
* Change it because it is a clear bug and/or scripting error.
* Change it because it contravenes the written class description and other materials and is not what was intended by the developers.
* Change it because it renders other multi-class combinations (f/c and f/d in particular) irrelevant.
and
* Keep it because it is fun.
* Keep it because it isn't more broken than other combinations.
* Keep it because people who don't like it can just choose not to take the higher level spells so it gives optionaility.
I think the argument actually has progressed as people have acknowledged points and counterpoints and I think a few opinions have changed and more have evolved as they got a deeper understanding of the other side's view.
There isn't going to be a universal agreement on this and that is OK.