Progressive Bard Songs

Wikkid_Suhn

Bards would suck much less in BG if they learned different songs, like in IWD. Also, if some of the lower level songs improved according to the bard's level, that would justify using them later in the game. I don't know about anyone else but I found Garrick's +1 to AC and saving throws to be ineffectual after Chapter 4.

kamuizin

My critical question about bards songs is the absent of respect to the specialist options when you reach the superior ability of the class after 2.950.000 XP.

Why a Jester that use songs to confuse the enemies get the same enhanced bard song that a skald get?

That's my only problem relative to bards. It's a weak class by nature, if BG:EE want to enhance bards, they can add new strong songs to bards, althrough i really don't care (as a song to do damage over time to all enemies around or heal the party over time, to make random effects like summon a creature, make an ally invisible and whatever).

Wikkid_Suhn

My critical question about bards songs is the absent of respect to the specialist options when you reach the superior ability of the class after 2.950.000 XP.

Why a Jester that use songs to confuse the enemies get the same enhanced bard song that a skald get?

That's my only problem relative to bards. It's a weak class by nature, if BG:EE want to enhance bards, they can add new strong songs to bards, althrough i really don't care (as a song to do damage over time to all enemies around or heal the party over time, to make random effects like summon a creature, make an ally invisible and whatever).

Do assassins get the same superior abilities that bounty hunters get? Or are superior abilities general for the class and not so much the class kit?

Drugar

As far as I know, the High Level Abilities are purely class based, independant of Kit choice.

Kore

HLAs are indeed class based. Different kits gain no difference in HLA choices compared to other kits of the same class.

I agree about this, but I would also like to have my bard able to sing while doing other actions (maybe he would have to cast vocalise and have high INT to cast at the same time), but its really lacklustre to just have your bard standing there essentially doing sweet sod all. It makes me rarely use my bard songs since I like to be doing something. This will no doubt grate heavily on the nerves of pure bred DnD fans though.

Cadros

@Drugar I think the swashbuckler can whirlwind while other thieves cannot, although I would have to check this.

@Kore I think the bard sing works better when you can wrangle with your DM about what a bard can, and cannot do while singing.

smeagolheart

@Drugar I think the swashbuckler can whirlwind while other thieves cannot, although I would have to check this.

@Kore I think the bard sing works better when you can wrangle with your DM about what a bard can, and cannot do while singing.

Swashbuckler whirlwinding is a Rogue Rebalancing thing

Wikkid_Suhn

HLAs are indeed class based. Different kits gain no difference in HLA choices compared to other kits of the same class.

I agree about this, but I would also like to have my bard able to sing while doing other actions (maybe he would have to cast vocalise and have high INT to cast at the same time), but its really lacklustre to just have your bard standing there essentially doing sweet sod all. It makes me rarely use my bard songs since I like to be doing something. This will no doubt grate heavily on the nerves of pure bred DnD fans though.

Referring to the player's manual, he indeed cannot be doing other actions while singing, but the effect of his song should last 1 round/level of the bard. So you could start off with the bard song then switch over.

I think in BG, however, the effect immediately wears off regardless of level. Can anyone verify this?

AlexT

Swashbuckler whirlwinding is a Rogue Rebalancing thing

No, that's actually present in the unmodded game. I suppose it's because Swashbucklers can't backstab so the Assassination HLA (which all other thieves get) would be of little use to them.

For reference, Rogue Rebalancing adds Whirlwind to Blades and, among other things, grants each bard kit a specific HLA song. If you're interested, more details can be found in the mod's Readme.

smeagolheart

My bad, I enjoy RR, I confused the blade whirlwind change with the swashbuckler whirlwind.

Ingwarr23

Add some interesting epic songs that aren't different only in their effects but and in the way they sound. ( Sorry for bad English)

kamuizin

A songlist instead of a specific sound per level would be nice and make a lot funnier play a bard.
To click on bard's song list and chose which song to play is better than play the same shit all the times, i never saw a famous singer with only one music.

Wikkid_Suhn

With only one song, you mean. I don't know kamuizin, doesn't sound very dnd-ish to me

Grammarsalad

I never play a bard... Well i've tried it but like the op said its not that much fun... It would be nice if they were.

Tanthalas

Have any of you read the Haunted Lands trilogy by Richard Lee Byers? If Bards in BG were as awesome as Bareris Anskuld I'd make one right away.

I think there could be two major improvements to Bards:

1. Allow Bard songs to function as a spell that takes one round to cast and lasts 1 round per level of the Bard (or maybe less, I think there's actually a DnD reasoning for this, not sure the edition though). If the Bard casts any spell (scroll or memorized) the song effect is interrupted. This would let Bards actually do stuff "while singing".

2. Give them new songs when they level up so they have some variety. What kind of Bard only knows one song for his entire career?

Wikkid_Suhn

The duration of the effect you mentioned is in the AD&D Player's handbook. Did you play Icewind Dale? Bards had about 6 different songs in their repertoire at a high enough level.

Spartacus

I think that the Bard concept is one of the coolest in the game - the Jack-of-All-Trades, proficient with a blade and magic both, and super charismatic with a story and a song for every situation. The bummer is that Bards in the BG universe are not terribly effective - I think a slight modification of the Bard's abilities (as long as it is in accordance with AD&D rulesets) would go a long way towards making such an awesome character concept a legitimate choice in character creation.

sarevok57

I think the best improvement on the bard song would be, what does the default one actually do, there is no description ever ever, and any BG manual or anything on what it does, except for special bard ones (skald and jester) plus i dont mind actually having it so the bard can only move and do his bard song, for example when you get enhanced bard son in ToB my bard doesnt kill a single enemy throughout the entire game once he aquires that ability, because it has infinite range, giving everyone +4 to hit / to damage/ to AC immunity to confustion/ stun/ fear, and giving himself a whopping 10 point AC bonus plus everyone 5 % MR is pretty big, plus another reason why bards shouldnt be able to do other actions while playing their song is for the fact of what it actually does. The default bard song gives you a +1 luck bonus (at least) which means its impossible to critical miss, and gives an extra default +5 % critical hit chance ( all rolls for anything while luck is in play are automatically 1 number higher) so that luck bonus is pretty substantial, but one this for sure, the jester bard song, its a complete joke, as someone else has said before, why should a skald and a jester both have EnBaSo? now the skald is a million times better in everyway (at least he would be if his +1 to hit/ damage actually worked and wasnt bugged to do nothing) or even have it so a blade gets the same song, now blades are ultimately the best bards, because they all get the same song in the end. First i think the jester song should improve upon level ups just like the skald song does ( that makes a lot more sense) and to be honest the blade shouldnt even get EnBaSo, he's not build to sing and play music, he is more of a fighter type hence the reason why his bard song doesnt increase in levels, doing it that way would make it so all 3 bard kits would at least have their own usefullness, instead of just having the blade be ultimate best bard hands down at level 24 when he can learn EnBaSo

AzL0n

''Bards would suck much less in BG if they learned different songs, like in IWD. Also, if some of the lower level songs improved according to the bard's level, that would justify using them later in the game. I don't know about
anyone else but I found Garrick's +1 to AC and saving throws to be ineffectual after Chapter 4.''

Yes please. Bard songs need to be improved. The mechanism should be changed too, I want to see the actual changes in numbers as in see the A.C go down on the character sheet as well as saving throws so that I know it's really working.

kamuizin

Good point @Azl0n.

If fact you touch a sensible point: "i want to see..." yes, but not the numbers or the improvment only, i WANT TO SEE the bard playing with the instrument, i WANT TO HEAR the songs, and please, for each song he play a differend music.

AzL0n

''If fact you touch a sensible point: "i want to see..." yes, but not the numbers or the improvment only, i WANT TO SEE the bard playing with the instrument, i WANT TO HEAR the songs, and please, for each song he play a differend music.''

Yeah that'd be great and I'd like it you'd see them play different instruments, Harp for Garrick, guitar for Eldoth. Wait is that sarcasm lol?

Senash

The only improvements I would like to see, is to let them at least fight (not cast) while singing, or make it so that after singin a bit, the effect stay for quite some time, so they can effectively join the fight and do something.
Seeing the actual stats the song gives would be useful too.

salomonkane

Greetings,

Concerning the bard's song (and the bards), I have listed some information about it (/Vanilla V°, BG1&2, Mods, etc.) :
FYI :

What does the bard sing!?
http://www.sorcerers.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51467

What does BG1 bard song actually do?
http://social.bioware.com/http%5Burl/u003dhttp:/social.bioware.com/forum/Baldur039s-Gate-1-and-2/Baldur039s-Gate-General-Discussion-No-Spoilers-Allowed/What-does-BG1-bard-song-actually-do-8423310-1.html

Rogues - Thieves and Bards
http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/bg/character/classes/rogues/

Rogue Rebalancing v4.48 released
http://www.shsforums.net/topic/27169-rogue-rebalancing-v448-released/

Bard Song Switching (Icewind Mode) for BG2 V1.5
http://www.shsforums.net/files/file/743-bard-song-switching-icewind-mode-for-bg2-v15/

G3: Song and Silence
http://www.gibberlings3.net/sns/index.php

Luck spell missing thieving skill bonuses
http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=23863

BG2 Fixpack
http://www.gibberlings3.net/readmes/readme-bg2fixpack.html
Optional But Cool: Bard Song Fixes

[BG2:ToB] - default bard song effect
http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=23932

Documented default Bard Song effects
http://iesdp.gibberlings3.net/site_info/history.htm

On our side we are working to integrate visuals effects for the songs from the game : TOEE,
(and create a few custom items like : singing sword or custom instruments). (1)



For me the Bard is the emblematic figure of the Realms (see Volo).
So that developers can offer us a big update to make it more atrayant than it is in the game would not be a luxury.

By eg : Rogue Rebalancing [aVENGER] and Bard Song Switching (Icewind Mode) Mods for Bg2 [shohy], add excellent contents .


Moreover to add :

Full musicien avatar, custom effects, animated instruments, customs musics/soundsets even if they are challenges for the developers,
could significantly contribute to the success of this new edition ... (2)



Sources :
(1) : http://www.baldursgateworld.fr/lacouronne/menace-sur-le-royaume-de-diamant-eternel/24722-adaptation-des-ressources-de-temple-elemental-evil-2.html#post284212
(2) : http://www.baldursgateworld.fr/lacouronne/menace-sur-le-royaume-de-diamant-eternel/24516-base-et-ressources-documentaires.html#post280254