Allow Humans to Dual-Class more than once as per P&P

moody_mage

First off I expect this to be met with a big no, primarily for engine reasons.

In P&P humans can dual-class as many times as they like as long as they reach 2nd level in their current class before changing for a new one and meet both alignment and ability stat requirements.

In BG it seems that humans can only dual-class a single time (at least I'm sure this was true when I attempted this many years ago in BG2). It would fit more closely to P&P if this change was made.

The Players Handbooks says this;

PHB said:

Only humans can be dual-classed characters. To be dual-classed, the character must
have scores of 15 or more in the prime requisites of his first class and scores of 17 or
more in the prime requisites of any classes he switches to. The character selects one class
to begin his adventuring life. He can advance in this class as many levels as he desires
before switching to another class; there is no cut-off point beyond which a character
cannot switch. However, he must attain at least 2nd level in his current class before
changing to another class. There is no limit to the number of classes a character can
acquire, as long as he has the ability scores and wants to make the change. (Certain
character classes have alignment restrictions that the character must meet, however.)

Source can be found on page seven of; http://merung.net/DandD/tsr2159---2nd-edition-Players-Handbook-(revised).pdf

Roller12

I agree, AD&D rules must be followed.

fighter7/thief6/mage7/druid7/pal2/ran2/cle3/sor2/monk3

160k exp. Seems legit and playable.

Chippy

That explains Elmister at last. Can I be cheeky and mention that the link doesn't work?.

moody_mage

Fun as that combo should be Paladins (and I think Monks) can't dual-class

The link works - however the site is trying to apply an autolink thingie to it and is seemingly confused by the hyphen in the URL. Copy the whole thing line out including the .pdf part and paste it into your browser.

Roller12

It doesnt matter, rules must be followed.

AurenRavidel

Not sure about giving limitless dual-classing, but I would like to see dual-classing overhauled somewhat. Some class combinations should be made available and could be a lot of fun. Fighter/Bard and Druid/Mage come to mind.

ajwz

And if we are adhering to pen and paper rules, we should introduce maximum class levels of around 12-ish for non humans

moody_mage

It's not so much as being a sticker for rules, some things translate well into a video game, some things don't It just seems to be a feature which has been half-implemented - possibly as an oversight.

With XP caps in place for BG1 it wouldn't be limitless as you need to gain a higher level in your new class that your old one which means a 2/3/4/5 type class advancement which is far from ideal if you were trying to abuse it somehow.

elminster

The BG2 manual, which apparently is a hodgepodge of accurate statements and not accurate statements, states that you can only have two classes as a dual class character. Considering the name, I think that makes a lot of sense. So i'm sticking to the BG2 manual (pgs 6 and 19).

FrozenDervish

I'd like alternate dual classes and the expanded dual classing options would add a lot more customization and challenges.

bill_zagoudis

i don't mind this but would it really benefit you and be enjoyable to play? i mean dua-classing once is already annoying as you suddenly lose your powers and the party has to carry you for a part of the game,dual-classing again is like playing half the game as an observer while your party kills things,and to achieve what? lockpicking on your fighter mage?

Awong124

I don't mind having the option, options are always nice. But I personally wouldn't use it just due to personal preferences.

Crawley

@bill_zagoudis I had Sarevok as a burden for my whole party just to learn in the end one cannot backstab with two-handed swords

Silence

lol, Backstab limitations on weapons are sometimes funny. I don't get why TH weapons are barred....other than the argument that larger weapons are harder to conceal + slower than one-handed weapons. Anyone have insight on this? This sounds like a job for @LadyRhian!

I'm fine with Dual class as is, but I'm open to a change because I don't think it can ever be abused that badly. A lot of the combinations proposed can never really happen (eg: paladin/monk builds). @decado had it right there. As well, your dual class scores are limited by your stats, which seldom get that high in the early-going. To be a dual class fig/thief/cleric, you'd need str/dex/wis of 15/17/17 or more - a pretty good character. A fig/thief/cleric/mage would require str/dex/wis/int of 17 or more, a very exceptional character. Plus you'd continually have to reboot your character mid-game. Finally, dual class cleric to ranger (ha) requires a str/dex/wis of 17 or more. But those are terrible, stay away from them!

Roller12

its pretty easy to roll a 17/17/17/17/17/3 char thats just a 88 roll.

backstab is limited to thief weapons, which is logical, thus one can backstab with a staff actually.

Silence

Ha ha. Mind you I once rolled a character who was a 100, but that's beside the point. If you're going to plummet your Charisma to 3 on purpose, I don't think you're looking for game balance. Just ways to break the game.

As for backstab and weapon use, I'd be surprised if there were not separate thread on that. I'm not sure about this argument, because thieves can also use bows and crossbows and multi-class thieves can use even any weapon. Do the rules (in 2nd ed) actually specify what's prohibited and why? I don't get why a quarterstaff, which is similar in length to a TH sword, can backstab while the TH sword, which is sharper, cannot. Regardless, I have no need of this feature...I'm just saying...

LadyRhian

@Silence Because a two-handed sword is like, five feet long and extremely noticeable and would lose you the element of surprise you need to make the backstab. I'd say longsword is about the limit on backstabs, and shorter weapons are better. You might as well be carrying Sagara Sanosuke's Zabato (based on an Eku) to backstab someone!

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs29/f/2008/102/f/4/Sanosuke_by_ToPpeRa_TPR.jpg

Shin

I'd think this would be quite overpowered in BG2 where exp is abundant and you can reach level 9-10 very quickly. In the late game you could be a Fighter 9/Cleric 9/Thief 10/Mage 30 or similar. It's basically taking the current strength of dual classing and multiplying it.

CamDawg

ajwz said:

And if we are adhering to pen and paper rules, we should introduce maximum class levels of around 12-ish for non humans

You kids with your fancy 2e rules. I played basic D&D where elf was a class.

* adjusts onion on belt

AurenRavidel

@CamDawg LOL! I remember those old rules. They had a much steeper learning curve than 2e and 3e. Druids were basically a prestige class of clerics and the demihumans were essentially multiclasses, with elves being fighter/mages and halflings being fighter/thieves.

AD&D 1st Edition had Assassin as a base class. I remember thinking that was awesome. Ah, memories.

To get back on topic, though, I've wanted to try a fighter/bard for ages, so opening up new class combinations would be great, as far as I'm concerned.

LadyRhian

@AurenRavidel And Bard was the hardest class to get, and went up to level 23, with all those Funky Instruments of the Bards in 1e. Mac-Fuirdimh Cittern, Fochluchan Bandolore, Doss Lute, Canaith Mandolin, Cli Lyre, Anstruth Harp and Ollamh Harp. Ah, those were the days!

Scooter

I think this would be good, so long as it was limited only to the three class combinations already offered as multi class i.e. fighter/ thief/ mage and fighter/ cleric/ mage

moody_mage

Bards/Paladins/Sorcerers/Barbarians/Monk are not allowed to dual-class - it would be restricted to Fighters/Rangers/Mages/Clerics/Druids and Thieves, all of which are allowed to multiclass in some fashion for at least one race.

Dazzu

I was able to dual class Paladins in the Goldbox games. True story!