Human Monk vs Dwarven Defender

TheGreatGodLoki

This has been a toss up for me for this game. While the DD does have amazing saves vs pretty much everything and his Defensive Stance does give him increase tankyness, the Monk almost comes close to him. Later in game he gains the immunitys to almost all CC and can heal himself, (though he does lack the armor the DD has) is none the less good.

So I guess my question is, which one tops the other. If I wanted to do a no-reload game of BG:EE2 which one would be the better option?

elminster

Dwarven Defender. In a no-reload game it will be a character with far more health, excellent saves (particularly if it had high constitution), and extremely high physical resistances. The monk will eventually become better but the thing with no-reloads is that you need to survive to that point. Honestly I think that would be a lot easier to do with the defender.

TheGreatGodLoki

In the long run, (if I can get them to survive) would a Monk be able to survive easier?

Southpaw

For a no-reload, I'd say the Dwarven Defender. Though, it's a bit boring, to be a tank in Baldur's Gate, but you will have more hit points and a bit better armour.
However, the Monk gets magic resistance, that trumps anything the DD can get out of his very short sleeve. Survive the first levels up to lvl 13 and Monk gets much better.

TheGreatGodLoki

That is only five levels in BGEE2. It could be doable. So the Monk does out weigh the DD?

elminster

TheGreatGodLoki said:

In the long run, (if I can get them to survive) would a Monk be able to survive easier?

Yep. Its possible for a monk to have 100% magic resistance in BG2 (it gets a bonus by itself that puts it up to 78%). That alone would make a huge difference.

TheGreatGodLoki

Thanks for all your help guys! Looks like Human Monk it is! Time to punch the crap out of things.

Kamigoroshi

Aw, no dwarven monk? It's about time someone is EEKeepering another Grimgnaw.

Southpaw

Kamigoroshi said:

Aw, no dwarven monk? It's about time someone is EEKeepering another Grimgnaw.

That's the idea!

TheGreatGodLoki

Whosa Whatis? O.o

Siona

I think no-reload monk is your best choice. By level 20, wearing no items whatsoever, you'll have 84% (iirc - it might be 87) magic resistance, immunity to charm and poison, immunity to normal weapons. Each fist hits harder than a two-handed sword of the same enchantment. I don't recall what my unmodified ac was, but it was below -10. And then you can equip that to your desire. Kitted, dark moon will give you true sight and quivering palms. You can (technically) one shot a lich or dragon with it. Sun soul gives you some fantastic offensive and defensive fire elemental abilities for finishing off trolls and destroying vampires.

elminster

Siona said:

I think no-reload monk is your best choice. By level 20, wearing no items whatsoever, you'll have 84% (iirc - it might be 87) magic resistance, immunity to charm and poison, immunity to normal weapons. Each fist hits harder than a two-handed sword of the same enchantment. I don't recall what my unmodified ac was, but it was below -10. And then you can equip that to your desire. Kitted, dark moon will give you true sight and quivering palms. You can (technically) one shot a lich or dragon with it. Sun soul gives you some fantastic offensive and defensive fire elemental abilities for finishing off trolls and destroying vampires.

At level 20 you would have 60% magic resistance (not including any other effects or items you are wearing) at at level 26 you'd cap out at 78% (again not including any other effects or items you are wearing).

http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts#Experience.2FLevel_Tables

Siona

Ah. My bad. Thanks!

TheGreatGodLoki

Which kit would you recommend? DMM or SSM or the un-kitted one?

elminster

DMM is probably the safest bet. You really don't lose out on much with it but you do gain quite a bit.

Siona

It's a tough choice, but for me personally, I would go with ssm. The elemental damage and fire shield just seems to to in really handy. The true sight of the dmm wasn't as good as you'd think, because it checks like a thief's trap check, so it isn't instant and not suited for combat like an inquisitor's. Having quivering palm one-shot a normally 20 minute foe is insane but can't be counted on. The ssm abilities are just consistently useful.

TheGreatGodLoki

Gah, votes are split. :P Why can't the Quivering Palm not be counted on?

CrevsDaak

TheGreatGodLoki said:

Why can't the Quivering Palm not be counted on?

Because enemy creatures in BG2 have too high saves to be affected by it.
I'd vote you for you to go with a Dark Moon Monk.

TheGreatGodLoki

Looking at the two, it doesn't say that the DMM loses Quiv Palm.

Siona

Right. Dmm still gets quivering palm. If crevsdaak recommends dmm, I'm inclined to defer to that. They are much more knowledgable than I am.

TheGreatGodLoki

Crevsdakk is the monk guru around here?

elminster

Dark Moon Monk gets Blur, which is very helpful from a defensive standpoint. Much more than even Fireshield I would argue because Fireshield only hurts an enemy if they register a hit (which isn't what you want happening). You do also get elemental damage from your fists with the dark moon monk, its just cold instead of fire damage (and you start with it earlier).

Also even though the description for fireshield/greater sun says it does damage if you get hit by a spell I haven't been able to repeat this (at least not using magic missile).

Its also revealed to me a rather annoying bug that keeps on repeating "one of the spells has failed" even when no spells are being cast by the user. For which I may have to fill out a bug report

Dragonspear

Honestly, from my time running with rasaad i loved everything about the SSM except for the fire shield really. Chances are (granted it was Rasaad not a min/maxed PC) if it was being procced, you were almost dead anyway. Also watch out for nuking your own party with sunray

TheGreatGodLoki

Is it worth going for the un-kitted Monk? I am leaning towards the DMM just because he seems stronger than the SSM. If just because of the defenisve stats.

DreadKhan

Dmm sounds WAY better to solo vs ssm, but you might want fire damage to kill trolls. As this isnt iwd, cold damage might even be better than fire, but I csnt statidticslly verify that.

DwD (dd says Dragon Disciple to me) would be easier, I found my monks to be less effective dsmsge dealers than warriors later, but I havent run a BG2 monk in awhile. MR is nice though, but doesnt work vs everything iirc.

comebackhome

Dwarven defender all the way. I've EE keepered one in my current play through as a multi classed DD/wizard and he's insanely tanky with wizard buffs.

Southpaw

TheGreatGodLoki said:

Crevsdakk is the monk guru around here?

Now I feel a little bit insulted :-)

Southpaw

TheGreatGodLoki said:

Is it worth going for the un-kitted Monk? I am leaning towards the DMM just because he seems stronger than the SSM. If just because of the defenisve stats.

As I mentioned earlier, DMM loses almost nothing compared to the standard un-kitted monk, but gets several nice abilities on top and his/her basic ability (Cold Fist) is still useable at high levels, while the standard monk's basic (Stunning Fist) is only awesome at low levels (pre-BG2)

TheGreatGodLoki

Haha, Sorry about that Southpaw. Gotcha, this would be the first time I ran an semi-evil dude.

comebackhome said:

Dwarven defender all the way. I've EE keepered one in my current play through as a multi classed DD/wizard and he's insanely tanky with wizard buffs.

Wow, first person to root for the old DD. I had one for another play though, they are exceptional at reciving melee damage. I just couldn't find much in terms of MR to help him. So magic battles generally laid him a tad low. (If he failed his saves, I counted on those saves.)

Southpaw

@TheGreatGodLoki - DD isn't bad, but he just is not a Monk... :-)

Anyway, if you'd like a durable main character, have you thought about the Barbarian?
- a bit more damage oriented, than the DD. Can get only 2 pips in the Weapons, but does make up for it with the Barbarian Rage bonuses (+STR +CON +magical resistances)
- gets 1d12 Hitpoints per level and starts getting durability perks at higher levels (resistance against melee damage), can not be back-stabbed (remember those Thief punks? They can eat dirt now.)
- a bit less defense-oriented, can't use Plate and Full plate, but there are very good chain alternatives so you won't really feel this as a disadvantage.
- better magical resistance (Barbarian Rage rocks!)
- faster
- can use almost any weapon or armor (except for the Plate armors)

Food for thought.

TheGreatGodLoki

Doesn't the DD also have a majority of those stats? Minus the backstab which could be counted using a helmet if you feel like messing up that awesome hair do your character sports. And minus the Barbard Rage, I felt like they were almost the same.