Entangle

meagloth

Could we please have it back to vanilla bg1 version? Where, if memory serves, it did it's thing once, and didn't effect party members.
Is this an engine thing? Cause right now it's just, if I may, a sh*tty-@$$ version of web for an already underpowered class. I don't think it would be OP, really. Druids are already weak, and have a very limited spell selection, and the way it is right now I just don't use entangle at all, and I think it would be nice to see some new strategies opened up early bg1.

ZanathKariashi

The only thing wrong with entangle is that it has a +3 save bonus instead of the flat save it's supposed to have which makes it significantly less powerful then its supposed to be. Entangle IS an inferior version of Web, that's why entangle is 1st level and web is 2nd level.

2ndly..the spell discription specifically states that the roots from the ground grasping at the feet of the target, and will hold it fast in place if grabbed.

Where as web actually tangles the target up as it struggles.

The only difference in BG's version from the PnP version is that BG adds a +3 save bonus, while the PnP version simply requires a save.

Though technically speaking both versions are supposed to force the targets to move through the area at half-speed, even if they don't become entangled/webbed, unless they are a very large creature such as a Giant or bigger who are completely immune to both spells (ogre sized creatures are immune to the entangling/hold effect but are still affected by the movement speed reduction).

meagloth

@ZanathKariashi‌ have you play vanilla bg1? Entangle only effected enemies, and when you cast it, it would entangle this who failed the save, and they would stay entangled for the duration. It was actually *useful*, particularly for the greywolf battle. Doing this would be a big boost to not locking jaheria in a closet in the friendly arm. Also, web is a wizard spell, and wizard levels are not comparable to Druid levels. (See hold person)

ZanathKariashi

And why does that matter? BG1 was even more wrong then this version is. you should never use a druid for any reason in Baldur's Gate, even with broken spells, because they are simply inferior to clerics in every respect, and every buff to druids also buffs clerics, so that doesn't change.

The only version of Entangle I'll ever sign off on is the one from the Players Handbook.

And all they need to do to make it closer to the PnP version's level of power is removing the save bonus. (since web doesn't slow targets moving through it, there's no point in adding that effect unless they want to add it to both).

Druids are not, nor have they ever been primary casters. Druids are jacks of all trades like Bards, just with divine spells and focusing on the wilderness instead of dealing in civilized areas. Druids are lacking because BG did not properly implement the versatility that they bring, and that versatility needs to be added. Not breaking things further.

Their spells are weaker in general, even among divine casters because they work with nature instead of forcing their desires on it like Clerics or Wizards do.

meagloth

that's kinda my point.

ZanathKariashi

Which is also my point. They don't need to change the spell to something it's not, they just need to implement it properly. (and add in the missing lvl 4 ability for druids to passively ignore entangle/web)

And then completely overhaul shapeshifting so that it's actually useful. I'm even willing to compromise a little on shapeshifting (by letting the forms scale a little and hitting as magic, up to +3 around 14 or so) since a lot of the versatility will be impossible to do in BG. Just expand the forms and give each of them a purpose. (I already covered some ideas for making the forms more useful in the spirit of their PnP versatility in my Druid Overhaul request).

elminster

There is actually a mod Mortianna created with the intention of doing just this. From the looks of things she wasn't able to get it to stop checking save throws every round however.

https://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/19961/spell-mod-bg1-style-entangle

I'm looking to incorporate it into a tweak pack I'm working on (and I've gotten permission to do so).

But all the same I support your request.

dreamrider

I wonder if that +3 to save is there so that PARTY members have a reasonable chance to get out of a misstep into the tangle? If that is the case, changing to "friends may pass" and no save bonus makes perfect sense, AND it gives the druid a distinct contribution feel in most combats, because Entangle would become a "Go To" spell.

Lateralus

Umm If you're casting the spell, give your party a heads up first by simply positioning them out of the area of effect as it's being cast.

dreamrider

Of course, but sometimes not feasible, especially if time is tight, or not precise enough. Its a very wide area spell, and you can't clearly tell the edges because the roots/vines are only intermittently visible

Dee

It sometimes occurs to me that many of these "useless with a party" spells would be more useful if they had a smaller radius.

Demivrgvs

@Dee I agree with you. For example I made Grease a small 10 feet AoE spell and reduced Web Aoe to 20 feet but I would not consider those changes nerfs.

@Zanathkariashi I made both Entangle and Web reduce movement rate within their AoE with no save as per PnP, and removed Entangle's save bonus (though a +2 bonus could be fine imo).

Regarding Druid's lacking versatility, Spell Revisions alone make them waay better imo, but I'm working on something very similar to what you are describing above within Kit Revisions (e.g. the already released revised Ranger shares Druid immunity to entangle within KR, though the latter will get such immunity earlier). Improving the Shapeshifting abilities will be crucial imo.

elminster

I posted this a couple of hours ago on Mortianna's thread
https://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/524055/#Comment_524055

Basically I took her fix and I think I was able to make it so that it only checks initially to see if you entangle the enemy. If the enemy gets entangled by the spell they are stuck that way for 60 seconds (and enemies that save initially avoid the spell). This is how it worked in the original BG1.

elminster

So I was checking into this. Apparently the +3 to save granted for the spell must have been added by BG2. Even though the original games description stated that it granted a +3 bonus it actually didn't (it gave no penalty and no bonus). So not only did it not affect party members but it also had an effect that lasted 1 turn if an enemy failed their save (rather than get a save vs spell every round to avoid entanglement) and it had a much better chance of actually working.