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Change of kit for Yoshimo?

GreenerGreener Member Posts: 430
Numerous people have written/commented that Yoshimo is wasted as a bounty hunter, what kit would you suggest switching him to? Fighter/Thief, Swashbuckler, Stalker, or other?

Comments

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    I'd say Assassin, which is the best kitted Thief for SoA, but I don't think it fits him very well. If you want to make a mod to handles this change I'd make options at installation time and then make the kit be applied with a AddKit/AddSuperKit bcd function (just use some weidu variables, throw in a EVALUATE_BUFFER to the compile action and make four (vanilla thief, swashie, shadow dancer if the game is EE and assassin) subcomponents for that.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    He could pass for a Swashbuckler, he's very flambouyant. As a Bountyhunter, he's bad at traps, which is frankly baffling.
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  • GreenerGreener Member Posts: 430
    I completely changed him from a thief to a fighter using this kit...it still fits his personality as a mercenary

    BUSHI: Bushi are masterless warriors, men without ties to a lord, temple, or monastery. They are commonly mercenaries, bandits highwaymen, or wanderers, earning their money however then can. They can be found serving samurai, protecting the court, or swelling the ranks of armies. A few may be kensai who have fallen by the way. Most, however are men of low birth who have chosen the way of the warrior to advance in the world

    Advantages:
    - +1 bonus to Armor Class at 1st level, plus an additional +1 bonus every 5 levels.
    - May use Ki ability once per every 4 levels (starts at 1st level with one use).

    KI: The bushi temporarily raises his effective level by two for one turn. He temporarily gains +15 HP, +2 THAC0 and -2 to all saving throws.

    Disadvantages:
    - May not wear armour heavier than splint mail
    - 4 Charisma
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  • GreenerGreener Member Posts: 430

    This is OT, but the description of that kit sounds like a trueclass fighter. Where do these "men of low birth... mercenaries, highwaymen, bandits" get the training for such massive AC bonuses and a way to channel their power into tripling their level (at first level)?

    Sigh. If you read the source material for 2e kits, lots of them say
    Special benefits: none
    Special hindrances: none


    What's so wrong with that??

    More importantly, how could you assign Yoshimo to a kit that has a CHA penalty??? He's a lovable rogue! Little known fact: Yoshimo's middle name is 'McLovin.' Sadly his last name is lost to history.

    To each there own...

    In fact, I was referencing the AD&D OA 1st ed.

    "Bushi are quite often poor and find it difficult to buy and maintain their armour and equipment...In addition, their lack of armour gradually teaches them to be nimble of their feet. Thus, in addition to any defensive adjustment a bush may have from a high Dexterity score, his armour class improves by one step for every five experience levels..."

    I had tried for weeks to create a reputation penalty for the kit, unfortunately that proved too great for my abilities, thus a charisma penalty was utilized instead
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2014
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  • GreenerGreener Member Posts: 430
    Wow...

    It's obvious you have nothing constructive to add, just a bitter rant, feel free to skip any of my future threads...
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  • GreenerGreener Member Posts: 430
    Apology accepted...cheers mate
  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    I like you idea of making Yoshimo an more fighter oriented character.

    I really like the idea of having limited armor access / training (it will lead to armors used, that were not much used before). Also giving the NPC a more unique feel (I don't like using Kits that NPCs use for my main character)

    Maybe make the Ki ability start lower and improve on level up like:
    Level 1: temporarily gains +5 HP, +1 THAC0 and -1 to all saving throws +1 AC
    Level 10: temporarily gains +10 HP, +2 THAC0 and -1 to all saving throws +2 AC
    Level 25: temporarily gains +15 HP, +2 THAC0 and -2 to all saving throws +3 AC

    Or something like this.
    I also think the general incresing AC is to much, but thats a personal preference. So I would skip it and the Charisma pemelty.

    Yoshimo also has a connection to the shadow thiefs, so maybe name the kit Yakuza Bushi?
    There is a Pathfinder kit that could be a good insperation;
    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/rite-publishing---fighter-archetypes/yakuza-bushi


  • GreenerGreener Member Posts: 430
    Darkersun said:

    I like you idea of making Yoshimo an more fighter oriented character.

    I really like the idea of having limited armor access / training (it will lead to armors used, that were not much used before). Also giving the NPC a more unique feel (I don't like using Kits that NPCs use for my main character)

    Maybe make the Ki ability start lower and improve on level up like:
    Level 1: temporarily gains +5 HP, +1 THAC0 and -1 to all saving throws +1 AC
    Level 10: temporarily gains +10 HP, +2 THAC0 and -1 to all saving throws +2 AC
    Level 25: temporarily gains +15 HP, +2 THAC0 and -2 to all saving throws +3 AC

    Or something like this.
    I also think the general incresing AC is to much, but thats a personal preference. So I would skip it and the Charisma pemelty.

    Yoshimo also has a connection to the shadow thiefs, so maybe name the kit Yakuza Bushi?
    There is a Pathfinder kit that could be a good insperation;
    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/rite-publishing---fighter-archetypes/yakuza-bushi


    Thank you for the constructive comments, I agree after testing the Bushi kit, I'm inclined to say the AC bonus is over powered, as Yoshimo started with +4 bonus from dexterity, +2 from the kit bonus, and +1 from single weapon proficiency for an AC of 3 before ANY sort of armor was applied. I like the idea of the improving Ki abilities based on level, I'll just need to code that.

    My original plan was to have a -4 reputation penalty for the kit, but I was unable to properly code/apply it, thus a charisma penalty was implemented instead.

    If you're interested in assisting me in testing send me a PM and I'll email you the kit
    Cheers...!
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    I'm not sure why you think @subtledoctor's point was non-constructive, it explains very clearly what is wrong with the kit - too big advantages in relation to the meaningless "disadvantages". Well yeah, he wasn't particularly smart/diplomatic in his deliverance, but the points remain valid. To be precise, the kit offers great advantages for combat, particularly the AC bonuses, but the "Splint Mail limitation" isn't a disadvantage at all. With the AC bonus a level 1 Bushi in Splint Mail has the AC of someone in Plate Mail, at level 5 he has better AC than someone in Plate Mail, and at level 10 he has the AC of someone using Full Plate Mail. This "disadvantage" has no actual impact on efficiency or combat viability. Compare this to a Kensai who only ever gets a +2 AC bonus and can't use any armour at all.

    The -4 to Cha is also a non-issue as Charisma is the least useful attribute in the game whose only ingame effect is trading, and depending on how you would code it there is a possibility that it's circumvented by a certain ring you find in the very beginning of BGII.
  • GreenerGreener Member Posts: 430
    edited August 2014
    scriber said:

    ...the kit offers great advantages for combat, particularly the AC bonuses, but the "Splint Mail limitation" isn't a disadvantage at all. With the AC bonus a level 1 Bushi in Splint Mail has the AC of someone in Plate Mail, at level 5 he has better AC than someone in Plate Mail, and at level 10 he has the AC of someone using Full Plate Mail. This "disadvantage" has no actual impact on efficiency or combat viability. Compare this to a Kensai who only ever gets a +2 AC bonus and can't use any armour at all.

    The -4 to Cha is also a non-issue as Charisma is the least useful attribute in the game whose only ingame effect is trading, and depending on how you would code it there is a possibility that it's circumvented by a certain ring you find in the very beginning of BGII.

    I understand your comments, and appreciate your position

    Now lets compare to the existing Barbarian kit which is similar

    Advantages:

    Moves 2 points faster than other characters
    Immune to backstab
    May use the Rage ability once per day every 4 levels
    Gains 10% resistance to physical damage at level 11 and an additional 5% at level 15 and 19
    d12 HP

    Disadvantages:
    May no wear armour heavier than splint mail
    May not exceed specialization (two slots) with any weapon class

    Currently the Bushi

    Does not have the movement bonus
    Is not immune to backstab
    Has an inferior special (Ki) ability
    rolls a d10 for HP

    While I agree the initially proposed AC bonus was to great, it seems like the kit is underwhelming when compared to even the barbarian?

    Would adding "May not exceed Specialization (two slots) in any weapon class" further balance the AC bonus or should it be removed/re-jigged entirely?
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  • GreenerGreener Member Posts: 430
    I appreciate your apology and consider it water under the bridge...

    That being said, my goal was never to make some sort of power gaming kill everything in one strike kit. I posted my idea, using the AD&D OA 1st ed Bushi kit as a template in hopes of getting community feedback as to how to make it more balanced...
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2014
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  • GreenerGreener Member Posts: 430
    edited August 2014
    Thank you, to clarify in you opinion this seems balanced?

    Advantages:
    +1 bonus to Armor Class at 1st level, plus an additional +1 bonus every 9 levels.
    - May use Ki ability once per day every 4 levels (starts at 1st level with one use).

    KI: The bushi temporarily raises his effective level by two for one turn. He temporarily gains +10 HP, +2 THAC0 and -2 to all saving throws.

    Disadvantages:
    - May not wear armour heavier than splint mail
    - May not exceed Specialization (two slots) in any weapon class
    Post edited by Greener on
  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    I'm really sorry that there is still no feedback from me. Could find the time :/
    RL is stressfull sometimes :(
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  • GreenerGreener Member Posts: 430
    edited August 2014
    Thank you, I've play tested through to Spellhold (I've got the keeping yoshimo v0.83 mod installed)
    Darkersun said:

    I'm really sorry that there is still no feedback from me. Could find the time :/
    RL is stressfull sometimes :(

    Nothing to apologize for, I'm a working stiff as well, I understand
  • GreenerGreener Member Posts: 430
    Thanks to @CrevsDaak I have managed to create the Reputation penalty for the Bushi kit to better represent their nomadic nature as mercenaries, bandits highwaymen, or wanderers, earning their money however then can

    BUSHI: Bushi are masterless warriors, men without ties to a lord, temple, or monastery. They are commonly mercenaries, bandits highwaymen, or wanderers, earning their money however then can. They can be found serving samurai, protecting the court, or swelling the ranks of armies. A few may be kensai who have fallen by the way. Most, however are men of low birth who have chosen the way of the warrior to advance in the world.

    Advantages:
    - +1 bonus to Armor Class every 5 levels (levels 5, 10 and 15 only)
    - May use Ki ability once per every 4 levels (starts at 1st level with one use).

    KI: The bushi temporarily raises his effective level by two for one turn. He temporarily gains +10 HP, +2 THAC0 and -2 to all saving throws.

    Disadvantages:
    - May not wear armour heavier than splint mail
    - May not exceed Specialization (two slots) in any weapon class
    - -2 Reputation penalty
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