Good side challenge idea - thoughts?

BelgarathMTH

"The Force must be used for knowledge and defense; never for attack! Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny! Consume you, it will!" Master Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back.

Hey friends, I was just thinking about at some point trying a "good side of the Force" challenge as inspired by Star Wars.

The basic premise of the challenge would be that most evocation and necromancy arcane magic would be completely off limits for the entire trilogy. The dark side, are they. (Spells like Web would be okay. But no Magic Missiles, Fireballs, Skull Traps, Lightning Bolts, Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wiltings, or other such arcane horrors.)

My first question would be, has it ever been done as at least a minimal reload? My second question would be, do you think it is possible, or what problems do you foresee?

I realize that this idea doesn't quite mesh perfectly with the Forgotten Realms world - for example, it would make both Dynaheir and possibly Aerie into Sith-in-the-making, while Xan would be the perfect Jedi trainee. But, I think a lot of the NPC's would fit very nicely into the goodside/darkside ethos. Ajantis, Anomen, Keldorn, Mazzy, and Valygar come immediately to mind.

What do y'all think?

Abi_Dalzim

Doesn't seem that hard, honestly. With a few exceptions, damage spells are overrated anyways. Probably the biggest thing I'd miss would be Death Spell, since it can whisk whole encounters away by itself. Otherwise, debuffs like Sleep and Chaos work just as well, and often better, than stuff like Magic Missile or Fireball.

elminster

"The Force must be used for knowledge and defense; never for attack! "

Sure says the guy who failed to kill Sidious and lived in a swamp for over 20 years.

But its a cool idea for a challenge

BelgarathMTH

@elminster, ROFLMAO.

But, he trained the Star Wars Charname, and then continued on as an immortal Force Spirit, as did Obi-Wan. Palpatine got thrown down a power tube by his own apprentice, who had been moved by Charname to redeem himself to the good side, and the good side won the balance for a new era.

"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" Obi-wan Kenobi, A New Hope

Luke: Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No. Easier. More seductive.

abacus

You'll still have access to powerful debuffs and crowd control spells... Maybe, instead, try to not use any spells that directly target/affect enemies?

CrevsDaak

I'd recommend going with a Fighter/Mage/Cleric as they resemble Jedi the most, and I'd recommend picking Quarterstaves as main weapon.
For mage spells I'd say you should use all of the Charm type spells (maybe not Domination… Jedi charm people, but only to shorten (or even avoid) the "rough negotiations" , but I can't imagine a Jedi using someone else on their own purpose), Sleep-type spells, defense-like Spells like Blur, Mirror Image, buffs like Blur, Strength, etc.
For priest spells, I'd recommend all the Healing spells, Hold and all the debuffing spells, Protection spells and maybe Earthquake (massive Force-push!).

BelgarathMTH

@abacus, the idea isn't to have a difficult challenge necessarily, but rather to just finish the trilogy using no attack magic.

@CrevsDaak, I only use parties and never play solo, so a triple class is not something I would play. In the Jedi Order, different individuals have unique talents. There could be equivalents of paladins, cavaliers, inquisitors, undead hunters, fighters, fighter-mages, fighter-clerics, and even fighter-thieves or mage-thieves. Or bards as well.

The only weapons that don't seem very light-sabery to me are non-quarterstaff blunts - mace, club, and flail. Any bladed weapon or quarterstaff could have a lightsaber equivalent in the game.

Since blasters are allowed for padawans, then bows and slings, and probably also darts, would be allowable in BG1, but probably only one pip in only one of those blaster equivalents.

I think it would be fun to form a whole "Jedi Order", probably represented in game by the Order of the Most Radiant Heart. Ajantis, Anomen, and Keldorn would be no-brainers to include in this party. Probably also Valygar since he's dedicated to destroying "filthy magic", i.e. darkside users. I think Mazzy would also fit very well, and probably Imoen, Xan, and/or Aerie to cast what arcane magic is critical, such as Breach.

I anticipate struggling terribly with dragons under this concept, since I have always slain dragons by way of Lower Resistance plus about a hundred Magic Missiles.

Actually, I'm starting to wonder now what exactly I could do against Firkraag with this party and no attack magic, since melee doesn't usually hit him without a critical hit.

CrevsDaak

BelgarathMTH said:

I anticipate struggling terribly with dragons under this concept, since I have always slain dragons by way of Lower Resistance plus about a hundred Magic Missiles.

Actually, I'm starting to wonder now what exactly I could do against Firkraag with this party and no attack magic, since melee doesn't usually hit him without a critical hit.

I'd say you could try using lots of debuffing spells over Firkraag, also I think Lower Resistance is an acceptable spell for Jedi, as most of the debuffing spells also fit for Jedi. On my all clerics run (which wasn't fully recorded), I used 16 Doom spells over Firkraag, which means that he got a -32 AC penalty, so everyone would hit him Try using that type of debuffing spells after casting Magic Resistance and Lower Resistance over him, you'll see how quick he falls (even if the latter is über-munchunkingly cheesy tactic that I don't even use--just throw three/four Lower Resistance and he won't see another day).

BelgarathMTH said:

@CrevsDaak, I only use parties and never play solo, so a triple class is not something I would play. In the Jedi Order, different individuals have unique talents. There could be equivalents of paladins, cavaliers, inquisitors, undead hunters, fighters, fighter-mages, fighter-clerics, and even fighter-thieves or mage-thieves. Or bards as well.

OK, I always play solo so we could say we're distant opposites when it comes to party-building styles…

So… if you want to go with a LG party, composed by those who would probably serve the Jedi, I think your best choice (from a PG point of view) is Fighter/Thief, Mage/Thief or Cleric/Thief, since you'll be lacking a thief in your party, but from an RP point of view, I'd recommend with a Fighter/Cleric or a Fighter->Cleric dual class maybe. You could go M/C also, but you have Aerie that has the same class and is also LG, so it wouldn't be the best (this reminds me when I had Jan Jansen (and Haer'Dalis) and I was a M/T myself).

JLee

I think the most difficult part of the game might be the beginning. I rely pretty heavily on the wand of magic missiles for spell interruption for the early caster foes; Tarnesh, Neira, Silke, etc. This becomes even more important to my strategy in a no/minimal reload game.

Improved Haste might be the best damage dealing spell in the game. I'm assuming that would be permitted?

Metalloman

Uhm...@CrevsDaak: I would go with a SW/TW specialization katana, and to be more lore friendly a jedi should be a just a fighter/cleric, but I see your point in making it f/m/c.
I also agree on the kind of spells a jedi in FR could use: not direct attack spell, but spells to let an enemy to be inoffensive, buffing/debuffing spells, healing spells, divination spells, evocation (in some degree could it be plausible?), Etc.
A jedi CHARNAME should avoid combat when possible, so I suppose that if there's a way to avoid a fight with a certain dialogue option, he must choose it; he could charm opponents to avoid a fight but more than often he would defend himself if attacked, and if words are of no help.

I don't think that a jedi is necessarily LG. I think they're more NG, leaning sometimes more toward LG, sometimes more towards CG, but mainly NG.

Gotural

@CrevsDaak‌ But Doom spells doesn't decrease AC, and they don't stack together.

Calmar

JLee said:

I think the most difficult part of the game might be the beginning. I rely pretty heavily on the wand of magic missiles for spell interruption for the early caster foes; Tarnesh, Neira, Silke, etc. This becomes even more important to my strategy in a no/minimal reload game.

Improved Haste might be the best damage dealing spell in the game. I'm assuming that would be permitted?

That's the crucial moment when the temptation by the Dark Side is the strongest.

CrevsDaak

Gotural said:

CrevsDaak‌ But Doom spells doesn't decrease AC, and they don't stack together.

Yeah, seems like you're right. I wasn't sure which spell I used so I said whatever came to my head.
I think I used the mod-added (from Divine Remix) Faerie Fire spells which gives -2 AC penalty for 4 rounds + 1 round/5 levels and the mod-added (form Divine Remix too) Alicorn Lance, which gives -2 AC penalty for 3 rounds.

Metalloman said:

I don't think that a jedi is necessarily LG. I think they're more NG, leaning sometimes more toward LG, sometimes more towards CG, but mainly NG.

Yep, Jedi can even be LN and TN, but I'd say NG is the most common alignment among Jedi, being LG the second one.

Metalloman said:

Uhm...CrevsDaak: I would go with a SW/TW specialization katana, and to be more lore friendly a jedi should be a just a fighter/cleric, but I see your point in making it f/m/c.

I dunno what you mean by SW/TW, I assume you mean Swashbuckler/Transmuter Wizard, but besides that I am pretty sure you don't actually mean that also, a Swashie would actually be quite fitting for some Jedi… Dual-wielding, AC and Damage bonus… Anyway…
I'd say the best way to make Jedi would be introducing a kit for F/M/C which restricts their spells and their weapons, besides giving them some un-armored combat bonuses and blah blah blah to make them more Jedi-like.

Metalloman said:

A jedi CHARNAME should avoid combat when possible, so I suppose that if there's a way to avoid a fight with a certain dialogue option, he must choose it; he could charm opponents to avoid a fight but more than often he would defend himself if attacked, and if words are of no help.

Yes, I agree there. Whenever I play good I try to avoid most fights to RP, and I only kill when needed (sometimes I even leave some enemies lying unconscious (instead of killing them) on the ground and go away).

BelgarathMTH

@JLee, I hadn't even thought about wands. Those could be seen as technological instruments, like blasters and ship's laser cannons. It may be okay to use "magic missiles" by way of wand since the user is not personally channeling the Force in an aggressive manner to create the weapon's plasma energy.

@Gotural, I was going to ask about that Doom stacking. It sounded like a good strategy if it would work. But I think you're right - I just looked up the spell description, and it says minus 2 to saves and Thac0, but no AC penalty.

Maybe if I make my PC a cavalier for the plus three to hit dragons, that would enable me to melee Firkraag if I get to a high enough level first, especially with some debuffing. Does he have spells like Stoneskin active that need to be Breached?

Also, since Obi-wan was willing to work with the likes of Han Solo and that shady diner owner from Episode II when needed, I think my Jedi-inspired character would be okay working with good and neutral "thieves" like Imoen, Coran, Jan, and Yoshimo. They serve a necessary function in certain situations, and the Jedi are nothing if not ruthlessly practical about things, or at least Jedi like Obi-wan Kenobi were. Besides, Imoen and Jan are force-sensitive, and need guidance so that they don't fall to the dark side.

Lemernis

Sounds like good roleplaying fun! As a tactical challenge perhaps not terribly difficult for the reasons mentioned, but still should be enjoyable. I'd definitely like to give this a go one day. I really like the concept a lot.

Metalloman

@CrevsDaak‌: sorry, I meant SW/DW Katana: single wielding/dual wielding style with katana, the weapon that for me is mostly near the lightsaber.
Of course the real class for a jedi would be a monk but with katana proficiency instead of quarterstaff...but F/M/C is needed to better represent the spellcasting side of the jedi... well... EEKeeper for EEKeeper maybe one could do the right mix to mostly fit the jedi class in BG, even if I don't know the limitations as I never messed up with that editor.

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