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Why does the "Enhanced Edition" engine suffer the same indignities as the original?

YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,059
I know it's probably too late to cry over spilt milk, but didn't the devs have access to the source code fully?
Many issues of the original could have been fixed at the engine level (which many mods try to bypass with TobEx or whatever).

Some pet peeves of mine as example:

- Thieves cannot sneak AND search at the same time
(as per: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/33957/how-the-hell-does-one-thief-sneak-or-search-really )

- multi-class combo limitations (I *really* wanted to make a Sorcerer/Paladin -- and damn the cheese!)

I'm sure others will chime in with occurrences of "engine doesn't let it" (even though, e.g., IWD2 had improvements over BG2 in terms of engine capability).

Post edited by Ygramul on
RAM021

Comments

  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,059
    edited August 2014
    P.S. Will pay, heck even pre-pay, $20 for a DLC, whose sole content is a "Sorcerer/Paladin" multi or kit.


    Here is a design concept, perhaps as a Sorceror kit called "Eldritch Knight" (yes, *that* one) which has:

    advantages [compared to Sorcerer]:
    +1 Thac0 every 3 levels up to 20
    +1/2 APR at lvl 10 and 20
    + weapon selection every 4 levels (and one extra at lvl 1)
    + ability to specialize in any melee weapon and style (for flavor,
    probably exclude shields)
    + hit dice: d6

    disadvantages:
    - can cast 1 less spell per level (like DD)
    - caster level reduced by 1/4th (rounded up) to a maximum of 15 (instead of 20)
    - spell progression reduced by 1/4th (e.g. you get your first 3rd
    level spell at lvl 8 etc.)


    The idea is that you play this as a spellsword where you select buffs
    for your spells.
    Example: at end of SoA you have an 18th level Edlritch Knight
    (effective Sorcerer level of 14) that knows
    1 lvl 7 spell, 2 lvl 6 spells, can cast stone skin 4 times a day etc.
    dual wielding katanas for 3APR
    thac0 of 7

    Comparable to Fighter/Mage at same XP -- arguably better for being
    able to cast your selected buffs more consistently.

    RAM021
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I want to say that Sorcerer/Paladin is probably not going to happen "Officially" as part of BG game primarily because it is not an official combination (on a LOT of levels) according to 2E rules. Now granted, quite a lot of 2E rules in the game were "Simulated" in ways that we may not want, but to introduce such a gross (meaning wide, not bad) deviation from race/class restrictions just doesn't seem like something that they (either Beamdog or Hasbro/WotC) would agree in "Official" content.

    However, nothing says you can't do it in EEKeeper.

    For me personally, I never liked the combination even in 3.5E, but then again I don't need to play the character. So whatever floats YOUR boat? Have at it.

    SethDavisatcDave[Deleted User]
  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,059
    edited August 2014

    I want to say that Sorcerer/Paladin is probably not going to happen "Officially" as part of BG game primarily because it is not an official combination (on a LOT of levels) according to 2E rules. Now granted, quite a lot of 2E rules in the game were "Simulated" in ways that we may not want, but to introduce such a gross (meaning wide, not bad) deviation from race/class restrictions just doesn't seem like something that they (either Beamdog or Hasbro/WotC) would agree in "Official" content.

    However, nothing says you can't do it in EEKeeper.

    For me personally, I never liked the combination even in 3.5E, but then again I don't need to play the character. So whatever floats YOUR boat? Have at it.

    Oh, alright, I concede, this is all an overreach and a bit silly.

    In any case, I have a strange OCD where I actually *delete* cheesy munchkin games after some progress. (In the past, I used Shadowkeeper/EEkeeper to make all kinda fictional classes all the time; none ever finished a game.) But I think my inner-munchkin still wanted to BE ABLE to make one of these things (and maybe penalize it for balance).


    Is it necessary? No.

    Do I consider my purchase of EE ill-spent? Far from it.

    (I purchased BG & BG2 about 5 times each since original release as I moved from computer to computer & place to place; all had been independently worth it; including EE.)

    This is why I offered to *buy* a workaround for such engine limitations.

    I don't think the devs owe it to us, but cleverly packaged (perhaps as a DLC of new kits + one or two new NPCs; or, perhaps, as a new adventure) it would be well worth the purchase if they choose to spend time on it.

    P.S. The issue about the thief limitations still stands: *that* should have been fixed!

    P.P.S. To be precise, the "edlritch knight" mentioned above cannot be made with EEkeeper, I think. I have no idea how to mod in classes. If anyone has skill on that, advice is appreciated.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I don't think it is a matter of necessity. You have fun with it. So you should be able to do it. Simple as that. And you can. You sound like you are no stranger to EEKeeper. Make the character that way. I just don't think that it is in the cards for the DEVS do make it. That's all.

    As before, just because it isn't to MY flavor of play, doesn't mean I don't respect that YOUR flavor might thrive with such a character. And hence the beauty of the the game.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Are you sure you can search and move silently (or hide, as applicable), as in physically?? Seems to strain credulity a bit, to move at full speed AND be stealthy as possible AND perform a thorough search of the surrounding area. Even hiding and searching seems a bit improbable. You definately couldnt do this in 3.x, and sounds like 2nd is no different.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I think its been talked about that a speed hit is expected.

    As for not being able to hide and search at the same time, why so? The only thing necessary to search for traps is to be extra observant. Given that you have to do that to hide appropriately anyway, it seems there should be a synergy there.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    I dont think you're actually just standing and looking, you're searching. I know you cant in 3.x, but not certain you cant in 2nd. But seems ridiculous to be performing a thorough search while being incredibly discreet.

    jackjack
  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,059
    Well, ToEE let you do both:
    seriously, it doesn't make sense not to, especially given that you are taking a speed penalty in that case.

    Imagine that *you* are in a dungeon skulking about and checking for pressure plates, wouldn't you be careful for death traps AND man-eating zombie-goblins at the same time?!

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,152
    Three words: not enough time.
    Actually both ideas mentioned in the OP (I didn't read anything else, I admit it), would need the revamp of *lots* of code, and the engine is a painful one to work with. Besides, IWD2 had a very different engine in many parts--many, many files were different, also, it is made for 3E and not 2E like BG2/1/EE.
    Ygramul said:

    P.S. Will pay, heck even pre-pay, $20 for a DLC, whose sole content is a "Sorcerer/Paladin" multi or kit.


    Here is a design concept, perhaps as a Sorceror kit called "Eldritch Knight" (yes, *that* one) which has:

    advantages [compared to Sorcerer]:
    +1 Thac0 every 3 levels up to 20
    +1/2 APR at lvl 10 and 20
    + weapon selection every 4 levels (and one extra at lvl 1)
    + ability to specialize in any melee weapon and style (for flavor,
    probably exclude shields)
    + hit dice: d6

    disadvantages:
    - can cast 1 less spell per level (like DD)
    - caster level reduced by 1/4th (rounded up) to a maximum of 15 (instead of 20)
    - spell progression reduced by 1/4th (e.g. you get your first 3rd
    level spell at lvl 8 etc.)


    The idea is that you play this as a spellsword where you select buffs
    for your spells.
    Example: at end of SoA you have an 18th level Edlritch Knight
    (effective Sorcerer level of 14) that knows
    1 lvl 7 spell, 2 lvl 6 spells, can cast stone skin 4 times a day etc.
    dual wielding katanas for 3APR
    thac0 of 7

    Comparable to Fighter/Mage at same XP -- arguably better for being
    able to cast your selected buffs more consistently.

    You could create a kit like this without needing to change anything in the engine. The EE already allows kitting Sorcs so it should be much problem, you just need to make the kit-mod ;D

    BlackravenJuliusBorisov
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Moving silently forces you to take a substantial penalty just to move at your normal speed in 3rd. Search checks dont represent glancing or just looking and hoping to see something, thats Spot. :/

    I like your kit idea though!

  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,059
    CrevsDaak said:

    Three words: not enough time.
    ....
    You could create a kit like this without needing to change anything in the engine. The EE already allows kitting Sorcs so it should be much problem, you just need to make the kit-mod ;D

    I am utterly uneducated in the art of Modding (installing SCS almost broke my sanity).
    Would a kindly soul post some instructions on how to make such a kit-mod.

    Or better yet: make one?

    prettypleasewithsugarontop.

    jackjack
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,152
    Ygramul said:

    Would a kindly soul post some instructions on how to make such a kit-mod.

    Or better yet: make one?

    prettypleasewithsugarontop.

    I'll make a tutorial about kits & the EE engine when I get home. I don't have access to any documentation right now.

    jackjackthe_spyderYgramulelminster
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,152
    CrevsDaak said:

    Ygramul said:

    Would a kindly soul post some instructions on how to make such a kit-mod.

    Or better yet: make one?

    prettypleasewithsugarontop.

    I'll make a tutorial about kits & the EE engine when I get home. I don't have access to any documentation right now.
    OK, made the actual guide. It can be found here.

    elminsterjackjack
  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,059
    CrevsDaak said:

    CrevsDaak said:

    Ygramul said:

    Would a kindly soul post some instructions on how to make such a kit-mod.

    Or better yet: make one?

    prettypleasewithsugarontop.

    I'll make a tutorial about kits & the EE engine when I get home. I don't have access to any documentation right now.
    OK, made the actual guide. It can be found here.
    Thanks a lot, @CrevsDaak‌ ! This is really helpful. I'll try to give it a whirl.

    CrevsDaakelminsterjackjack
  • fanscalefanscale Member Posts: 81
    They should sell a kit creator for 10 or 20 dollars then.

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