Runehammer +5 - why isn't it a "speed weapon"?

Klorox

It has a speed factor of 0.

I only mention this because when I asked (many, many moons ago) why Kundane added an extra attack, I was told it was because of its speed factorof 0.

thanks!

FinneousPJ

That is incorrect. The description of kundane explicitly states it adds one extra attack. This effect is what is referred to as a speed weapon. Speed factor is quite useless.

TJ_Hooker

Yup, there's no relation between speed factor and APR. Also, there's plenty of other weapons with 0 speed factor out there that don't grant extra APR.

ICN

FinneousPJ said:

That is incorrect. The description of kundane explicitly states it adds one extra attack. This effect is what is referred to as a speed weapon. Speed factor is quite useless.

Speed factor isn't totally useless. If there's a monster that's too tough for you to go toe to toe with, you can make use of weapons with very low speed factors to beat them anyways. Speed factor controls how early in the round you attack, so if you have a weapon with very low speed factor you can dart in, smack the monster once, and run away before they get a chance to attack. It's a niche use, but it can be helpful sometimes.

Klorox

FinneousPJ said:

That is incorrect. The description of kundane explicitly states it adds one extra attack. This effect is what is referred to as a speed weapon. Speed factor is quite useless.

Thank you. I could have sworn that extra attack was unwritten.

TJ_Hooker

Klorox said:

FinneousPJ said:

That is incorrect. The description of kundane explicitly states it adds one extra attack. This effect is what is referred to as a speed weapon. Speed factor is quite useless.

Thank you. I could have sworn that extra attack was unwritten.

I'm pretty sure that was actually the case in vanilla BG2. The description was updated for EE.

DreadKhan

Iirc, arent speed weapons in 2nd ed supposed to have a speed factor of 0 as an aspect of the enchantment?

Note: warhammers are supposed to be a pretty fast weapon, vs the slower heavier mace, which has many similarities in reality. 2d4 hammers though should probably nab a speed factor penalty, but thats opinion.

Also note: Weapons are supposed to get a bonus to speed factor based on its enchantment level, ie a Longsword +3 should be 3 steps faster.

ryuken87

I think the original description of Kundane didn't mention its extra attack but did mention "no speed factor" which confused me as well at the time. While ago though, might be misremembering.

Gallowglass

@TJ_Hooker‌, @ryuken87‌ - that's right, in original BG2 Kundane's description didn't mention the extra attack, and I'm pretty sure that I saw it explicitly documented somewhere (original manuals, maybe?) that a speed factor of 0 automatically meant an extra attack (even though that wasn't true in general, and only actually applied in the case of Kundane, not for other speed-0 weapons).

It would be rather useful if there were some blunt weapon in the game which was a speed weapon, although to be of much use it should be something we can find in SoA, not the Runehammer which we only get half-way through ToB. It probably ought to be one of the hammers (as @DreadKhan explains above), if such a thing were to be introduced. At the moment, Ashideena +2 and Borok's Fist +2 are completely identical hammers, even though they have different names and descriptions ... perhaps one of them could be changed into a speed weapon? Should I make a Feature Request?

Metalloman

It always bugged me a little to see two weapons obtainable in the same game having the same icon, features and description.
It has little sense to me: could it be that Borok's Fist was meant to be another kind of weapon but Black Isle had not the time to implement it completely and then copy/pasted Ashideena features? I would be curious to know something about this...

DreadKhan

I had an early barbarian playthrough in which I DWed those hammers. Speed would have been nice.

Looked cool though!

Night_Watch

Metalloman said:

It always bugged me a little to see two weapons obtainable in the same game having the same icon, features and description.
It has little sense to me: could it be that Borok's Fist was meant to be another kind of weapon but Black Isle had not the time to implement it completely and then copy/pasted Ashideena features? I would be curious to know something about this...

I was so excited when I saw Ashideena in BG2. Then I got sad when it was spelled Borok's Fist =(

Gallowglass

Night_Watch said:

I was so excited when I saw Ashideena in BG2. Then I got sad when it was spelled Borok's Fist =(

You can get Ashideena in BG2 as well as Borok's Fist. (Ashideena can be found during the Unseeing Eye quest.)

elminster

Gallowglass said:

@TJ_Hooker‌, @ryuken87‌ - that's right, in original BG2 Kundane's description didn't mention the extra attack, and I'm pretty sure that I saw it explicitly documented somewhere (original manuals, maybe?) that a speed factor of 0 automatically meant an extra attack (even though that wasn't true in general, and only actually applied in the case of Kundane, not for other speed-0 weapons).

From the original BG1 manual (pg 75) and BG2 manual (page 39)

"In Baldur’s Gate, to allow for the real-time based combat and movement, each character and monster is on an independent personal initiative round, which is six seconds long. Within the personal initiative round, all of the rules of the AD&D game are used, including speed factors for weapons and casting time for spells. For higher level characters who can attack more than once per round with a given weapon, the speed factor of the weapon determines when exactly in the six second round the attacks will occur. Speed Factors are numbers between 1 and 10 (indicating 1/10 of a round and 10/10ths of a round respectively for a character that can attack once per round with a weapon)."

Definitely wasn't in the manuals if you saw it.

Metalloman

Gallowglass said:

Night_Watch said:

I was so excited when I saw Ashideena in BG2. Then I got sad when it was spelled Borok's Fist =(

You can get Ashideena in BG2 as well as Borok's Fist. (Ashideena can be found during the Unseeing Eye quest.)

Yes, but in BGII you have more chances to find Borok's Fist (Adventurer Mart in Waukeen Promenade, IIRC) before you can find Ashideena (can't remember where it is in BGII) so, being most probably BF the first hammer one can find, I understand @Night_Watch‌ completely: it happened to me too, I liked that weapon a lot in BG.
*scrolls Adventurer's Mart selection*
*sees Ashideena icon*
*hovers cursor*
- Oh! Another unique hammer! It's not expensive, I think I'll buy it!
*looks at the description*
*Shocked*
*buys it anyway*

Gallowglass

elminster said:

[Quoting the original manual] "... Speed Factors are numbers between 1 and 10 ..."

So maybe it was somewhere else I saw it, but I'm still pretty sure that I saw it documented somewhere. But note that this manual extract says "between 1 and 10", thus excluding the possibility of speed factor 0. Possibly that's why some addendum or other explanation subsequently (and misleadingly) clarified that speed factor 0 means an extra attack.