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[Watcher's Keep Final Seal Fight] Would I be able to do it?

So I quit BGII:EE for a while, as my posting activity on the forums indicate, because I got stuck on a fight I just couldn't do, no matter what strategy or how buffed I am. I have completely wiped at least a dozen times on this fight to no avail, no matter what I try. I've read guides and suggestions to this fight and still got nothing. Should I continue trying or should I just come back later, if I could?

If needed, I can provide detailed information about my characters and even a save file for those of you to experiment with if you all want. Let me know what information would help, or if you want the save file. To start off, though, let's just say my highest-leveled character is Yoshimo at Lv. 22, and lowest is Jaheira at Lv. 13. I read that it's a difficult battle when the whole party is around Lv. 25, so I assume that I'm SERIOUSLY underleveled for this area. Can anyone confirm this?

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Comments

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 5,476
    I think it's doable at your level. Obviously you can come back later or even skip the whole fight if you can't manage it.

    JuliusBorisov
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    You should absolutely be able to do it. Just be calm and analyze what is going on - what is killing you? How can you prevent that? Should you defend, should you be aggressive? Are there things you can do in preparation for the fight?

    Just look at the problem, and then at the tools you have at your disposal. With a 22 Yoshimo you should absolutely have some very nice tricks at your disposal - make use of them! Don't worry about using up consumables, too - after all you're right and this is one of the more difficult fights in the (unmodded) game. So no need to save those items for something else, eh?

    typo_tilly
  • pixie359pixie359 Member Posts: 248
    It is doable at that level, but I don't think there is any shame in struggling - I would go explore elsewhere for a bit and get some levels and gear if you're really struggling, and you can try a few different tactics out on other, easier fights.

    I can't remember off-hand who is in that group, so can't really advise specifics but I do remember it as a toughie.

  • NokkenbuerNokkenbuer Member Posts: 146
    edited October 2014
    Thanks for the responses, but I've tried the above suggestions. I've used all manners of traps and all sorts of buffs. I've tried multiple guides as well. I don't know what my problem is specifically, but I do know that even after trying my hardest and with a full party wipe, none of the enemies are below "Barely Injured" and many times it's only one of them with that, while the rest are still "Uninjured." Even when I put down traps, it only damages them moderately. Outside of that, I can't get a single hit before being completely massacred in a matter of seconds.

    Edit: This includes using every available consumable. Given the fact that I seem to be having next to no success, I may honestly just return at a later date, though this is a bit difficult to justify in roleplaying terms. I'll give it a few more shots, but nothing—not even cheap tactics—seem to be effective.

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 5,476
    Can you upload the save?

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 3,521
    you do know that the final seal technically was for Throne of Bhaal parties right? sure us veterans might be able to do it, but if you're somebody on the relatively newer side, it is going to be quite difficut, and it sounds like your XP isnt even at 3 000 000 yet, you could always come back in ToB and do that fight then but as @FinneousPJ said, if we could get an upload of your save we could see if we can defeat the battle with your team setup

    FinneousPJ
  • NokkenbuerNokkenbuer Member Posts: 146

    Can you upload the save?

    Yeah sure, here ya go. I attached the file.
    sarevok57 said:

    you do know that the final seal technically was for Throne of Bhaal parties right? sure us veterans might be able to do it, but if you're somebody on the relatively newer side, it is going to be quite difficut, and it sounds like your XP isnt even at 3 000 000 yet, you could always come back in ToB and do that fight then but as @FinneousPJ said, if we could get an upload of your save we could see if we can defeat the battle with your team setup

    I'm new in terms of this being my first playthrough of BGII:EE, but I have played the entirety of BG:EE. I understand the tactics of how to play games like this, but I'm concerned I'm just not properly leveled for it. I didn't know this was meant for ToB, though, so thanks for the info. Believe it or not, I'm still in Ch. 2.

    If you're able to finish this fight with my party in its current state, I'll be thoroughly impressed. If you can, though, I'll probably just return at a later date, after I've completed more of the game.

    FinneousPJ
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,514
    If your level is too low, break out the cheese grater! You haven't missed much discussionwise. ;)

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 3,521
    im going to give this file a try and see how i can do :)

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 3,521
    edited October 2014
    Okay, so i just did your fight on insane and won and here is how: first i placed five normal traps ( not the bounty hunter traps) inbetween where the succubus and marilith spawn, then i placed 2 where the beholder spawns, then the spells i cast were: protection from evil 10' radius, remove fear, haste, protection from fire on the charname minsc and jaheria ( the other 3 are in ranged combat) i summoned 4 earth elementals, i cast righteous might, draw upon holy might, true seeing on aerie, gave minsc the belt of hill giant strength, cast regeneration on minsc, cast stoneskin on the mages, forgot to cast improve haste on the 3 melee guys oops, stoneskin on jaheria and i believe that is the spell choice, other than that all equipment was the same, and i changed the spell selection but i didnt even cast 'em, okay so after all that good junk, summon in the baddies, and right away the marilith and beholder die (from the traps) and i force attacked the succubus and she died a second later then i forced attacked everybody on the cleric caster person, while jaheria and 2 of the elementals went after the melee baddie, and the ranged baddie, what evs, killed that dude last, took 'em all out without anyone dying, on my second try, plus i used those potions of extra healing, healing 40 hp in a pinch really helps, wasnt all that bad actually, could definately tell you were missing some items that you could have had to help out, and the ACs were a bit wonky, but i made it work, and this was on insane difficutly if i didnt mention, and here is the screen shot of what it looked like afterwards

    Post edited by sarevok57 on
    elminsterFinneousPJNokkenbuerJuliusBorisov
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 3,521
    PS: i forgot to say, it's always so fascinating looking at other people's files and how they organize things and just set things up, good stuff :)

    SionIVJLeeArdulJuliusBorisov
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,680
    That is one of the harder fights in the game, no shame in having problem with that one. When i'm doing my No-reload games i'm saving that one until the very last moment.

    JuliusBorisov
  • NokkenbuerNokkenbuer Member Posts: 146
    Thanks for the help everyone, especially your sarevok57. I'll try that strategy later.

    By the way, what is your opinion on how I managed everything? How bad am I doing for a noob? :P

  • TehCerealKillerTehCerealKiller Member Posts: 56
    To answer your question yes you are under-leveled. Generally if you're going to attempt Watchers Keep in SoA it should be done towards then end of the game when your level is at least high 20's to low 30's. Being in the teens is like trying to beat Sephiroth in Kingdom Hearts 2 at level 30 (75 is the minimum recommended for that fight) and while still possible it's a gigantic pain in the ass.

    Personally every fight I do that involves spellcasters (including this one) I cast Dispel Magic 3-5 times at least during the fight. I also use any invisibility detection spells like True Sight that makes all the fights a lot easier since I can just run up and practically 2 shot the mages after the protection spells are gone. For this fight in particular I would focus the beholder first because they are the bane of my existence and I have had to reload several times after they perma killed a party member or 2. Now I did this in ToB so my party consisted of Sarevok, Minsc, Anomen, Valygar, and Aerie. I was also a Cavalier (Paladin) wielding Carsomyr +5 (Holy Avenger). Also makes sure to always have a way to stave off mental effects like confusion or fear since those are the most common spells used. Use anything you can to buff mag resist. And if you can, find out what type of magic is mostly being used to cast Spell Immunity on whoever needs it the most.

    NokkenbuerJuliusBorisov
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 3,521
    @Nokkenbuer hahahaha ah, your stuff is good, my OCD just kicks in seeing the mess that is inventory, usually i keep mine a lot cleaner, plus the AC of your main guy is huge compared to minsc and jaheria, i saw that sometimes you make minsc go ranged which is allright, but what i would suggest is, is to make the ACs of your main line guys to be around the same, unless your strategy is to have the baddies get lured to your guy and have everyone else come in the rear then i guess that could work, normally when i play im kinda lazy so all my melee'ers have the same AC so no one gets the burden of getting hit to hard, but other than that, i just find it fancinating on how people's compositions of how they play and organize their teams and such :)

    ArdulNokkenbuer
  • NokkenbuerNokkenbuer Member Posts: 146
    edited October 2014
    Thanks for the information, @TehCerealKiller‌. And yeah, @sarevok57‌, my inventory is a mess. I haven't really organized that in a while. As for my charname being so buffed, I actually did that because usually I use him as the sole hit-taker and primary combatant in fights, while I micromanage all the others to essentially swarm around and fight as ancillary support to my charname. I may distribute the AC better, though, since I've been encountering issues with my other party members being stomped while my charname is left alive recently. Needless to say, having my charname built like a tank isn't too helpful when everyone else is butchered. I will take your advice, though. Thanks!

    sarevok57TehCerealKiller
  • TehCerealKillerTehCerealKiller Member Posts: 56
    Anytime Nokkenbuer. I also took a peek at your save. I would recommend ditching Jaheira as she sucks in fights. Keldorn would be the best choice for this fight as he is basically built for it but you'll need a way to buff his DEX/AC because a 9 DEX holds him back from being one of the best npc's for a good aligned party.

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,680
    JLee said:

    The gauntlets of dexterity, if you look closely, have Keldorn's name on them ;)

    Two names on them actually, Keldorn and Anomen.

    JLeesarevok57NokkenbuerJuliusBorisov
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 3,521
    it seems to me that one of the prerequisites for being a member of the radiant heart is to have awful dexterity, anjantas, anomen and keldorn all had bad dex, silly knights, they should have taken some lessons from piccolo and learn how to dodge

    JLeeNokkenbuerJuliusBorisov
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,030

    To answer your question yes you are under-leveled. Generally if you're going to attempt Watchers Keep in SoA it should be done towards then end of the game when your level is at least high 20's to low 30's.

    low 30's? absolutely not.
    it's meant to be doable before ToB. you can't reach most of the 20's in SoA let alone any of the 30's.

    lvl20 is more than fine for that fight. it's not much tougher than the twisted rune.

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,680
    It is actually much tougher than the twisted rune, and you're meant to do it at 20+ because it's the end of Watcher's keep and the difficulty scales with the end of ToB, not SoA.

    JLeeelminstersarevok57
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    Huh, I never found that fight overly difficult. I usually do it before the Twisted Rune, too.

    Maybe it's because of the advantageous terrain. With TR, you're cooped up in a small room without much room to maneuver, let alone prepare the area. In WK you can do whatever you want, know the spawn locations exactly, have a huuuge area at your disposal, etc. I always found it pretty easy to control the flow of the fight in WK, and pick them off one by one. TR is much more difficult in that regard.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,030
    SionIV said:

    It is actually much tougher than the twisted rune, and you're meant to do it at 20+ because it's the end of Watcher's keep and the difficulty scales with the end of ToB, not SoA.

    it's not much tougher, maybe 25% tougher.

  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 563
    To each their own, but I can never bring myself to go there before the end of SoA. It is unbalancing to the point of making SoA rather silly if you go to Watcher's Keep first.

    How much scaling is there in WK if you go there in chapter 2? I've read there is some, but I am not sure of the extent.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    edited October 2014
    JLee said:

    How much scaling is there in WK if you go there in chapter 2? I've read there is some, but I am not sure of the extent.

    I believe it's mostly on Level 1, you won't get all statues active if your level is too low. There might also be a few random spawns that scale with level.

    I usually do WK before departing for Spellhold but after all the other side quests. I totally agree that the items you find there make the rest of SoA noticeably easier.

    JLee
  • NokkenbuerNokkenbuer Member Posts: 146

    Anytime Nokkenbuer. I also took a peek at your save. I would recommend ditching Jaheira as she sucks in fights. Keldorn would be the best choice for this fight as he is basically built for it but you'll need a way to buff his DEX/AC because a 9 DEX holds him back from being one of the best npc's for a good aligned party.

    Yeah, I know Jaheira isn't the best and even though I am not romancing her (I chose Aerie instead), I'm keeping her for roleplaying purposes. In my subsequent playthroughs of the two games, I'll definitely be mixing up my party and alignment, so Jaheira will be abandoned immediately in both games when I do that. So don't worry, she won't be a permanent fixture of my BG gaming. :P

  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 563
    Hmmm. I think Jaheira is a terrific fighter. I am not understanding the hate here. Give her a strength item and you have a dual wielding, full plate wearing, front line fighter that doesn't take melee damage? Yes please!

    elminster
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,636
    edited October 2014
    Get Jaheira to cast Iron Skins and she gets 5-6 hits registered against her but takes no damage. Picking her up at a lower level (less than level 9 for her fighter half) is better so that you can put towards two-weapon style sooner (that way you can get ** in it by 2,000,000xp), but either way just Iron Skins alone she is awesome.

    JLeeJuliusBorisov
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