Trying To Decide On A Duel Class

OzzyBotkins

Never did a Duel Class play through
But I am considering it for my next play through
The 3 I am thinking are:
Berserker/ Cleric
Stalker / Cleric
Kensai / Thief
Planning to duel at Level 10
Feedback would be greatly appreciated
Thank You for your time

meagloth

I always thought the best dueler class would be the kensai or swashbuckler, but I guess it depends on what kind of duel it is. To the death? Points? Reenactment? Sport? For a one on one duel I would go dual longsword and dagger probably, and wup @booinyoureyes‌ with is giant-ass heavy tower shield.
Who are you dueling at level 10? This might help us narrow down what class you want.

MERLANCE

Kensai/Thief lets you get Use Any Item so that you can wear armor as a Kensai. Wait until level 13 to dual class so you get the extra 1/2 attack per round.

If you are a stalker/cleric, better to dual class at 9, when your backstab multiplier goes up, or 13 so you get those wizard spells added to your list and the extra 1/2 attack per round. You're probably going to be using a quarterstaff, so that means no shield for you, plus the Stalkers light armor restriction.

Berserker/cleric is really good, but you dont need to dual at 10. 8 for the second rage, 9 for the last d10 hit points, 12 for the third rage, or 13 for the extra 1/2 attack. Just make sure you dont put proficiency points in non cleric weapons.

DreadKhan

10 isn't ideal to dual out often.

Kensai 13 to Thief is strong, consider making liberal use of Daggers, for throwing damage. You can also consider Katanas or Longswords, since you aren't doing BG1.

Stalker to Cleric should be 13 too for sure. You can easily switch between dwing clubs or Staffmaces, you will be tripping over proficiencies. Very solid solo class actually.

Lord_Tansheron

If you're dualing from a fighter-type character (fighter or ranger), dual either at 9 or at 13 - the two levels where you gain an extra 1/2 APR.

I generally would not recommend dualing at 13 unless you are running with a very small party (solo, 2, or 3 max). The XP requirements per level skyrocket past lvl 9 (you need the same XP for 9-10 that you needed for 1-9!) and that means you will have a fairly long down-period in which you are left without your first class (since you need lvl 14 in your new class to get it back). It's doable with enough metagaming, but it's usually not worth the hassle just for the extra 1/2 APR.

Dualing at lvl9 on the other hand is fairly easy. BG2 has a lot of easy XP lying around, and getting to lvl 10 in your new class to regain the old is fairly simple. Also, fighters only gain hit dice for levels 1-9 anyway, their scaling tapers off pretty sharply after that. Dualing at a lower level also means you can reach a higher level in your new class in the end, assuming you play with an XP cap.

If you're dualing from non-fighter type classes, things are a bit less straightforward. It's often hard to tell what the best level is, but as the XP progression tends to switch from BG1 values to BG2 values around lvl 10 or so for all classes, that's often a safe point to do it (+/- a few depending). There's also considerations like caster level (if you dual from a caster) or kit abilities (may get extra uses at certain level breakpoints), so think carefully. These duals are rarely done, though, and you didn't mention them as options, but just so you know

As for the options you mentioned, both Berserker->Cleric and Kensai->Thief are established classics that can be VERY powerful. Stalker->Cleric is a fun one, as it essentially gives you a backstabbing priest which is quite weird; it does come with the full R/C druid + cleric spell toolbox though, so it's definitely got something else going for it as well. Whichever you choose, dual them at 9 for most parties. If you're going solo or 2/3-man, you can probably go with 13 as well - but do keep in mind the caveat I mentioned above. 13 is really better suited for experienced dual-classers who know where to get lots of XP very quickly and easily.

Ardul

@Lord_Tansheron‌ you get the extra attack at 7 and 13. Not 9 (I'm sure you are aware of it - I just wanted to clear up any misunderstanding). Other than that I agree with your assessment.

I personally prefer level 9 myself because I hate the down time.

Lord_Tansheron

@Ardul: you're absolutely right, my mistake. Anyway, 7 is not really an option since you start at 8 in BG2 as a fighter (right?), and the XP brackets are so low that you might as well go to 9 to grab all the hit dice and an extra pip.

DreadKhan

Dualing to thief isnt as bad, and if you have a full party, your party can carry you through the very low levels. By lvl 10 in most 2nd classes, you should have no difficulty keeping up with a party at lvl 11 or 12. You might not be the best memeber, but you can't tell me a 10th lvl thief has no useability. Same with casters.

I tend to agree more though for those dualing at very high levels. But generally, I think anything but fighter isnt going to be dead weight after lvl 10 or so, and getting to lvl 10 is fairly quick.

That said, dualing to a pure warrior is very, very tedius. You are dead weight for a good while.

Lord_Tansheron

It's not so much that you CAN'T do it, but rather that it's not worth it. The gains do not outweigh the hassle in most cases, except for the aforementioned exceptions (solo/small party, heavy metagaming). Of course you can carry the dual along, but there comes a point where you just have to ask yourself whether it's worth it. Considering the HUGE xp difference for 9 vs. 13 duals, I believe that an extra 1/2 APR and some other minor benefits are not enough of an incentive.

DreadKhan

Well, personal preference is hard to argue against!

For a dualed Kensai, that extra 1/2 attack brings another pip and +1, which is really useful in ToB, when you're going to have more THAC0 issues. Imho, a lvl9 kensai to mage is just a mage flailing with a sword in ToB. You need whatever boosts you can get then. I didnt like my powergamey BG2 kensage in ToB much, he was like Haer Dallia's horsekicked nephew in battle. He was useful as a caster still though. I wouldnt use katanas on such a character if I planned to take him to ToB, since +4 to hit is bad for actually scoring hits. Thief would have more options, and could wear those nifty gauntlets in Watcher's Keep, so I would like the 13 dual more. I did a crazy lvl 18 berserker to thief once, he could acfually hit in ToB I found. I DID find getting to 19 in thirf a bit tedious though, so I would not recommend it unless you're looking for something powergamey, and I'd just go whole hog and do ~21 kensai to thief. Sounds fun for a small party. By fun I mean tedius as heck!

Lord_Tansheron

I've tried basically every combination conceivable, including the HLA (read: UAI) thief->fighter dual (both with Swashbuckler and Assassin; sidenote: UAI will be retained while dualing even with thief inactive). My conclusion has been that high-level duals really are not worth the hassle. The minute gain in power at endgame is not worth the early/mid-game hit, especially considering that once you're decked out in items and abilities in endgame, you have very little to worry about anyway - while there may be tight spots in the early/mid game that you could use your second class for. Things like Tactics TorGal for example, or simply just the various Liches you can find in early game (Shadow Dungeon, Gate District, Spellhold...). Don't forget how much earlier you have access to important second-class abilities, too (lvl6/9 spells for mages, HLAs, etc.)!

I cannot relate to the THAC0 problems you seem to have in ToB. Of the things that are an issue there, THAC0 seems to me to be very far down the list... Also, the extra pip is almost useless for the 9 vs. 13 dual. You're already at GM for your primary weapon, and (assuming DW) extra pips for the OH don't do a whole lot considering it's hardcapped at 1 APR. The Kensai bonus of course is nice, but +1dmg/THAC0 to me is not worth A MILLION XP, not to mention that for half the game that bonus is not actually going to be active.
I'm not sure why your Kensage didn't seem to perform too well, mine absolutely DESTROY at higher levels. It is hands down the most powerful class/combo in the game, and their damage output, resilience, and utility are simply spectacular. I do agree of course that Katana are not the best choice, but that's easily remedied: just give them something else! There's enough amazing 1h weapons they can use and absolutely dominate with.

Anyway, as always my usual caveat that all these things may work differently depending on individual setups. With heavy modding (or none at all) things tend to fluctuate wildly between setups, and there's always some combination somewhere that makes a different choice better. I can only urge people to look at the arguments presented (for both sides) and come to their own conclusion. Blanket statements can rarely just be copied over with identical efficacy.

Lateralus

I just ran through BG1 with a level 2 invoker/ 8 fighter. Most fun I've had playing the game.

DreadKhan

...maybe uou arent too familiar with THAC0 and dual classing? Yoj use the higher number, meaning your THAC0 is capping at a pretty atrocious level for a fighter. You are at 12 THAC0 according to Playithardcore, 1 better than a PURE MAGE. And Mage buffs don't buff your to hit or damage as much aa clerics tend to (though IWD was better for this). Yeah, you have +3 as a Kensai, and +3 from GM, but thats still leaving you at 6. And short 1/2 an attack. Really, this wouldn't matter much vs, say, an Illithid, as they are easy to hit, but vs anyone significant in ToB, your lvl 9 Kensage is frankly a joke in melee. Admittedly, not a big hassle if you just made the Kensai in BG2, but playing it through BG1 and then dueling out to make a fighter that cant fight at later levels seems nuts. I agree its fun in SoA, but its not gonna hit a damn thing in ToB. Heck, a 9th level Berserker is not only easier to beat BG1 with, its just straight up better, since he can wear those gauntlets a 9 kensage desperstely needs.

tldr If dualing a low level fighter sounds fun, at least do a berserker. Kensai shouldnt dual early, and probably not even mid range if you like hitting things. THAC0 matters in ToB.

elminster

I'm kind of lost about why Kensai/mages became an issue considering the OP never asked about it.

Which begs the question to the OP. Why no mages?

Lord_Tansheron

DreadKhan said:

[...] vs anyone significant in ToB, your lvl 9 Kensage is frankly a joke in melee. [...] a fighter that cant fight at later levels seems nuts. I agree its fun in SoA, but its not gonna hit a damn thing in ToB. [...]

Cannot confirm this. I have never had issues hitting things consistently in ToB, all the way down. I know the numbers but it just has never been an actual problem, even against the toughest enemies (i.e. Ascension bosses, Eclipse, etc.). Enemy ACs are actually not THAT ridiculous in ToB (certainly not as ridiculous as their THAC0s...). Gromnir has effective AC6, so does Illasera (Ascension version, final battle). Sendai (final) has 9, Irenicus (final) has 0. Only Melissan and Balthazar (final) have -10 each, which does make them considerably tougher (and understandably so). [Values from the .cre files, using SCS/Ascension mods; may differ from other setups].

Would a 13 dual have better THAC0 and do more damage in the end? Absolutely. But you don't just get that for free, it's a trade-off with the more difficult mid-SoA performance. And as someone so rightly put it, ToB isn't the entire game. Not to mention that once you get there, you have so many spells and items to make up for shortcomings that it's fairly easy to find a strategy that works. In mid-SoA you are much less limited, and at least with the most popular difficulty mods there is no shortage there of challenging encounters.

Curmudgeon

@MERLANCE‌

Small Correction: "Berserker->Cleric is really good, but you don't need to dual at 10. 9 for the third rage and the last d10 hit points or 13 for the fourth rage and the extra 1/2 attack. Just make sure you don't put proficiency points in non cleric weapons."

Enrage and Kai are gained at Levels 1, 5, 9, 13, 17, 21, ..., not 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, ...

FinneousPJ

@Lord_Tansheron‌ @DreadKhan‌ Even a level 9 dual should have no trouble getting below 0 THAC0, which is enough.

DreadKhan

I disagree. We are not going to agree. The THAC0 of a mage is not very useful for a fighter. Time for everyone to move back on topic.

OzzyBotkins

elminster said:

I'm kind of lost about why Kensai/mages became an issue considering the OP never asked about it.
Which begs the question to the OP. Why no mages?

Is it possible to duel from a fighter to a specialist mage.
I have not gotten around to playing a mage yet
This will be my second play through of BG2:EE
the first was with a druid

DreadKhan

Nah, you can only do that in uberold BG1. Imoen the Thief/Conjurer ftw!

Lord_Tansheron

Sadly you cannot dual to kits, and specialist mages are kits.

I remember I used to toy around with the option (via use of SK) to see how it went, but I can't remember many of the specifics. Probably nothing that seemed overly impressive... Fighter->Cleric of Lathander maybe? Dunno. Fighter->Swashbuckler? That actually seems interesting...

Which I had more time for some fun non-standard-rules playthroughs, but I am not the man I once was... Already behind in my standard playtesting.

Ancalagon44

DreadKhan said:

I disagree. We are not going to agree. The THAC0 of a mage is not very useful for a fighter. Time for everyone to move back on topic.

Since it is related to dual classing, it is on topic.

I think you are missing the point in any case. The point is not whether a fighter dualled at 13 would have better THAC0 - of course it would. The point is, would that better THAC0 make a meaningful difference to the damage output of the class in melee, all other things considered? And, even if it does make a meaningful difference, is it worth the sacrifice in terms of how much longer it takes to regain your active class abilities.

It has already been asserted that the AC of ToB enemies is just not high enough to warrant dualling at 13, considering that a fighter dualled at 9 will still get bonuses to THAC0 from weapons, proficiencies, ability scores and spells. Do you disagree with that statement, and if so, why?

ifupauline

I think the Kensai dual Thief is by far the funniest dual class to play, it's better to wait until lvl 13 but you will have to wait a while before regaining your kensai ability, if your party is more than 2 characters then dual at 9 for more fun.

Played it with scimetar ninjato proficiency, single handed weapon, it was really fun and as soon as you get "use any items'' you can equip scarlet ninjato +3, with poison damage

In the following order

Belm +2 easy to get
Usano +4 first level watcher's keep (which allow you to deal with kangaxx)
scarlet ninja to +3
spectral brand +4 +5

game is over.

DreadKhan

Ancalagon44 said:

DreadKhan said:

I disagree. We are not going to agree. The THAC0 of a mage is not very useful for a fighter. Time for everyone to move back on topic.

Since it is related to dual classing, it is on topic.

I think you are missing the point in any case. The point is not whether a fighter dualled at 13 would have better THAC0 - of course it would. The point is, would that better THAC0 make a meaningful difference to the damage output of the class in melee, all other things considered? And, even if it does make a meaningful difference, is it worth the sacrifice in terms of how much longer it takes to regain your active class abilities.

It has already been asserted that the AC of ToB enemies is just not high enough to warrant dualling at 13, considering that a fighter dualled at 9 will still get bonuses to THAC0 from weapons, proficiencies, ability scores and spells. Do you disagree with that statement, and if so, why?

As I clearly stated, I DO NOT AGREE THAT THAC0 0 IS HIGH ENOUGH TO BE RELIABLE IN TOB. Clear enough for you? 13th lvl is borderline, Korgan will dtill be a vastly more effective fighter due to actually HITTING. Lvl 9 kensage can tank okay, but his THAC0 is terrible for a primary warrior.

I also clearly stated I was finished with the topic. Quit trolling.

Lord_Tansheron

So your answer to "why do you disagree with this statement" is "I DO NOT AGREE"?

Wait, what? How can you answer a question after the WHY of your statement by repeating that same statement?

I don't think it's trolling to ask someone to elaborate further on their opinions. You're entitled to your opinion of course, absolutely you are, but other people are also entitled to question you on it - and if you don't want to defend it, that's also cool but it does sort of disqualify you from the discussion, don't you think?

This isn't trolling at all. The dual-class/level issue is one of the more controversial issues of the whole BG dual-class system, and it is definitely relevant to the OP's general questions. Further exploring it in various ways is not without merit. Not at all!

DreadKhan

Yes, it is trolling when I gave reasons, most significantly 'low level kensai duals have very poor THAC0'. If thats hard for you to understand as a reason, which is wholely and entirely seperate from agreeing, then I have no more time to waste discussing with you, because you are debating in bad faith, aka trolling.

Also, it is indeed irrelevant, as he listed which classes he was considering. Quit trolling, and stay on topic.

elminster

OzzyBotkins said:

elminster said:

I'm kind of lost about why Kensai/mages became an issue considering the OP never asked about it.
Which begs the question to the OP. Why no mages?

Is it possible to duel from a fighter to a specialist mage.
I have not gotten around to playing a mage yet
This will be my second play through of BG2:EE
the first was with a druid

As has been pointed out the only way to do this would be to EEKeeper the kit in. You can't actually dual class into a specialist mage/kit otherwise (you could dual class into a specialist mage in the original BG1).

Lateralus

DreadKhan said:

...maybe uou arent too familiar with THAC0 and dual classing? Yoj use the higher number, meaning your THAC0 is capping at a pretty atrocious level for a fighter. You are at 12 THAC0 according to Playithardcore, 1 better than a PURE MAGE. And Mage buffs don't buff your to hit or damage as much aa clerics tend to (though IWD was better for this). Yeah, you have +3 as a Kensai, and +3 from GM, but thats still leaving you at 6. And short 1/2 an attack. Really, this wouldn't matter much vs, say, an Illithid, as they are easy to hit, but vs anyone significant in ToB, your lvl 9 Kensage is frankly a joke in melee. Admittedly, not a big hassle if you just made the Kensai in BG2, but playing it through BG1 and then dueling out to make a fighter that cant fight at later levels seems nuts. I agree its fun in SoA, but its not gonna hit a damn thing in ToB. Heck, a 9th level Berserker is not only easier to beat BG1 with, its just straight up better, since he can wear those gauntlets a 9 kensage desperstely needs.

tldr If dualing a low level fighter sounds fun, at least do a berserker. Kensai shouldnt dual early, and probably not even mid range if you like hitting things. THAC0 matters in ToB.

mmmm I stopped following in Gorion's path soon after he was murdered. So at level 2 invoker (because I like destroying stuff) I traded in my dres..er robes for armor. With my familiar, I got some of the missed HP back and eventually I will be way over the max for a fighter.

I casted high level spells like fireball, cone of cold, and lightning bolt throughout the game while dual-weilding flails and wearing full plate the whole time with the aid of scrolls and wands. Cause you know, I like destroying stuff every way I can.

[Deleted User]

Lord_Tansheron said:

Sadly you cannot dual to kits, and specialist mages are kits.

I remember I used to toy around with the option (via use of SK) to see how it went, but I can't remember many of the specifics. Probably nothing that seemed overly impressive... Fighter->Cleric of Lathander maybe? Dunno. Fighter->Swashbuckler? That actually seems interesting...

Which I had more time for some fun non-standard-rules playthroughs, but I am not the man I once was... Already behind in my standard playtesting.

Ranger->Cleric of Lathander would be fun if you wanted to take an already powerful build and make it cheesy(er), especially since Ranger kits are fairly lackluster for dual-classing to Cleric. I think in another thread someone mentioned using Keeper to dual a Fighter->Shadow Dancer, which is an intriguing concept.

OzzyBotkins

Just wanted everyone to know that I appreciate all the info that you have shared with me
I am going to go with a Berserker/Cleric
That will be loosely based on Branwen from BG1
CHARNAME Stats will be the same or higher then Branwens
She had
STR 13
DEX 16
CON 15
INT 09
WIS 16
CHA 13
That's 82 points total so If I can get a 90 plus roll I can boost STR up to 18/xx and WIS to 18
CHARNAME Alignment will be Neutral or Chaotic Neutral
RP Deity will be Tempus so I think a Berserker/Cleric would fit there
Planning to have Dorn - Anomen - Hexxat in party
not sure about the other 2 slots but it will be a party of Neutral and Evil NPCs
Tried to give everyone a thumbs up
Thanks to Merlance - DreadKhan - Lord_Tansheron -Ardul - Lanteralus - Elminster _ Meagloth - Curmudgeon - FinneousPJ - Ancalagog44 - Ifupauline - Kaigen.
Sorry if I missed anyone

DreadKhan

Happy to help, sorry we got rantfully off topic.

Good choice though, very sturdy character.