My new party/Are Bards really that great?

Devorum

I've gone through IWD a couple of times in the past, but always without a bard or druid. I'm seeing how awesome the druid can be, so my new party will have one...but I'm still not convinced on the bard. Are their songs really worth an entire character slot that could be casting spells or murdering things? Are there Bard only RP opportunities just lying around waiting to be uncovered?

My current party idea:

1 - Undead Hunter: Long Swords

2 - Dwarven Defender - Axes

3 - Fighter Dualed to Cleric or Multiclass - Hammer/Flail
3a - Fighter/Thief - Bows

4 - Fighter Dualed to Druid or Multiclass - Quarterstaff/Sling/Scimitar?
4a - Druid (not sure if I want to multiclass. I've never run a druid before)

5 - Thief/Illusionist - bows/spells
5a - Cleric/Illusionist - ALL the spells

6 - Bard
6a - Pure Mage or Fighter dualed to Mage


Any insight or advice is appreciated.

CutlassJack

Bards are full on awesome. You may not realize this til it hits level 11. Then you'll wonder how you ever lived without him. Until then they can prove useful doing the things you currently love. Y'know, casting spells and murdering things.

Devorum

I'll give it a shot. I suppose I'm tainted by the Bards in BG, who only seemed be good at getting murdered while reciting poetry.

Frogman

CutlassJack said:

Bards are full on awesome. You may not realize this til it hits level 11. Then you'll wonder how you ever lived without him. Until then they can prove useful doing the things you currently love. Y'know, casting spells and murdering things.

Is the first song worth using during low levels with the bard? Or are they better off firing arrows until they get war chant of the sith?

Zyzzogeton

Yes.

The Bard gains War Song of the Sith which improves your party's AC by 2 and gives 2 HP regen per round. This practically makes your party unkillable. In Heart of Fury this makes things a lot simpler. A lot lot simpler.

They also have a song which adds 1 damage per attack, and in a party of Fighters this will add up to huge amounts.This affects summons to, so if you have a horde of summons (which the Bard can contribute to) that's more attacks to apply +1 on. They can stun foes every turn.

They level so ridiculously fast that they end up being better at casting spells like Chromatic Orb and Skull Trap than Mages which rely on caster level for a good portion of the game. IWD isn't spell intensive so a Bard can step in as the Arcane caster. War Song of the Sith makes them the party healer. So they become the ultimate support character in a game where supporting Fighters makes things drop dead really fast.

Also they pickpocket really wel, giving ther party thief one less skill to worry about.

jackjack

Bards are the coolest.

Belanos

Speaking of Bards, I'm not sure how to make one with 2nd Edition Rules. In 3rd Edition, Charisma was the stat that determined the number of spells they can get as opposed to Intelligence for the Mage. Same thing for the Sorcerer. Is it the same, or do I need to give them both a high Intelligence as well? I'm wondering the same thing about Sorcerers as well, I'm planning on having a Dragon Disciple in my party. So do I focus on Charisma for the spells or Intelligence. I didn't see anything about in the manual.

jackjack

Bards also benefit from a high intelligence, just like mages.

Zyzzogeton

CHA has no effect on spells for either class. INT affects the highest spell level a Bard can learn. While Sorcs don't care about stats for their spells.

Devorum

Does the rest of my party seem viable? I'm mostly torn on whether to do a fighter/cleric and Thief/Illusionist or a Fighter/Thief and Cleric/Illusionist.

I'm also aware i might have to have several different alignments, which hurts Righteous Wrath...but oh well!

CutlassJack

Belanos said:

Speaking of Bards, I'm not sure how to make one with 2nd Edition Rules. In 3rd Edition, Charisma was the stat that determined the number of spells they can get as opposed to Intelligence for the Mage. Same thing for the Sorcerer. Is it the same, or do I need to give them both a high Intelligence as well?

Unless you're using them for your first party slot and conversations, you don't need to worry too much about charisma. Just focus on giving them a high Dexterity and intelligence. Int for spells, and Dex for AC and ranged attacks. And You can never go wrong with a 16 constitution for extra survivability on a non fighter.

This is for pure bards. If you were doing a blade, you'd probably want some Strength too. But don't do a blade. They don't get all the good songs a vanilla bard gets.

extra note: Its good to have one party member with a decent charisma. It lowers prices at merchants. Doesn't have to be the bard specifically. Your undead hunter will probably have that covered.

Belanos

CutlassJack said:

Unless you're using them for your first party slot and conversations, you don't need to worry too much about charisma. Just focus on giving them a high Dexterity and intelligence. Int for spells, and Dex for AC and ranged attacks. And You can never go wrong with a 16 constitution for extra survivability on a non fighter.

This is for pure bards. If you were doing a blade, you'd probably want some Strength too. But don't do a blade. They don't get all the good songs a vanilla bard gets.

Ok thanks. It's been awhile since I've used a Bard in these games, and I'm used to the 3rd Edition rules when it comes to them. As for my Bard, I was thinking of going with a Skald. I don't have to worry about Charisma then as I'm going to have a Paladin as my front man. So does Charisma do anything in 2nd Edition aside from dialogue options and store prices? Again in 3rd Edition, it also plays a role in a Cleric's ability to turn undead. Does that apply in these games as well?

Zyzzogeton

I'd go with CON over DEX if you're strapped for points. They're better off singing behind people most of the time. So all you need to worry about is a stray AoE spell possibly hitting them.

Knettgummi

Belanos said:

CutlassJack said:

As for my Bard, I was thinking of going with a Skald.

I think you'll find the main reason why people are raving about IWD bards is the additional songs that areonly available to vanilla bards. Some of these are really strong -- particularly the final two, in my opinion. If you're going skald you'll miss out on these.

Belanos

Knettgummi said:

I think you'll find the main reason why people are raving about IWD bards is the additional songs that areonly available to vanilla bards. Some of these are really strong -- particularly the final two, in my opinion. If you're going skald you'll miss out on these.

I realize that. While I was looking them over it seemed like at least a couple of them were kind of "meh", while the Skald's songs are good consistently.

Zyzzogeton

Skald's are great in this game

Having a fully customizable party means more Fighters (especially multi/dual) which means more attacks their bonus can apply on. Also using up one character slot for your Skald is a fairly painless choice. As opposed to BG where only the Protagonist can be a Skald which makes it harder to justify.

No HLAs means no Bard does what a Skald does at high levels.

Belanos

So this is the party, I've come up with but I could use some advice:

Human Paladin (Undead Hunter)
Dwarf Fighter (Dwarven Defender)
Half-Elf Ranger/Cleric
Human Bard (Skald)
Elf Sorcerer (Dragon Disciple)
Gnome Illusionist/Thief

I'm debating on whether I should dump the Dwarf and go with a Fighter/Druid instead. While Arcane spells are well covered, I feel like I might be a bit weak on the Divine spells. Or maybe a Dwarf Fighter/Cleric? I do kind of like the idea of having a dwarf in the mix. Would a Fighter/Cleric be able to achieve Grandmastery at all?

Fardragon

I would use a dwarf fighter/cleric ahead of a half elf ranger/cleric. A berserker dueled to druid or cleric can achieve grand mastery, multis can't.

Belanos

Fardragon said:

I would use a dwarf fighter/cleric ahead of a half elf ranger/cleric.

I have my heart set on a Ranger/Cleric, I really like that combo. My character in both the BG games is one as well. I think it's great being able to have access to the entire Divine spell list. And it's a good front line character as well.

bob_veng

i think skald is actually better. +4/+4 is better than regeneration i think. the only problem is you get it only at lvl15

if you go heavy on physical damage and have 3 frontliners, +4 damage translates to an ENORMOUS increase in the party's damage output. if everyone hits twice in a round, that's already 24 dmg per round
and if they hit (effectively) 5 times per round, that's "only" 60 dmg per round

Fardragon

Belanos said:

Fardragon said:

I would use a dwarf fighter/cleric ahead of a half elf ranger/cleric.

I have my heart set on a Ranger/Cleric, I really like that combo. My character in both the BG games is one as well. I think it's great being able to have access to the entire Divine spell list. And it's a good front line character as well.

Well, if you plan to enable cheese, why not play in story mode?

Abel

Ranger/Cleric don't get all divine spell anyway, since you have to wait for the Ranger to level up to get the Druid spells.

The main advantage of Bards is their fast level progression. 1 more level than Wizards by level 10, 3 by 15, 5 by 20, 7 by 25, 9 by 30. I also checked some spells and it seems they benefit from added levels up to 30.

But they trade this advantage for worse access to spells. 1 level 4 spell against 2 level 5 for Wizards by level 10, 2 level 5 against 1 level 7 by 15, 3 level 6 against 2 level 9 by 20. Then Wizards get more uses and Bards slowly progress though never get level 9 spells: 4 level 7 by 25, 1 level 8 by 30.

So it all depends on what you prefer: more power for lower spells or more spells for lower power. I prefer the latter but since it's so hard to find spell scrolls in IWD, it may be more interesting having a Bard than a Mage full of free, unused high level spell slots.

The songs are not that great, unless stacked with Mislead Bards maybe, since the Bard has to keep singing for the effects (7 seconds duration) to last.
The Bardic items are quite useless.
However, there are some very interesting pockets to pick in Kuldahar.

In the end, I think I'd choose a Sorcerer over these two!

Zyzzogeton

2/4 damage for every attack is not "not great" especially in a game where the player can tack on Fighter to nearly any character.

Also 2 HP regen is pretty big, especially in HoF.

Abel

After consideration, I admit the Skald song could be useful. But it's debatable whether an additional damage dealer would not be better. AC doesn't matter much when you have Mirror Image, Stoneskin and Ironskin; so it all comes down to the usefulness of the damage and hit bonuses.

2HP/round regeneration is a joke and especially in HoF.

Zyzzogeton

Assuming at least 4 Fighters with 3 APR

4 x 3 attacks per party member x 4 party members = 48 damage per turn

6 summons, assume 1 attack per round, that's an additional 24 damage

At least 72 damage per turn

2 HP per round is big if damage is spread around by forcing the AI to switch targets. Also Mirror Image and Stoneskin only protect the Sorcerer, who is really is better off spending early picks on summoning spells, which draw attacks better.

Jarrakul

If you plan to constantly spam rests, the skald is probably better. After all, if you're rested for every fight, you can spam summons to make the most out of the skald song's damage, and the healing over time from the War Chant of Sith is only marginally useful. On the other hand, if you prefer to rest rarely, the War Chant is a bloody lifesaver, and the skald song has fewer opportunities to affect large numbers of allies.

bob_veng

2 hp per round isn't a big deal, frankly

Belanos

Fardragon said:

Well, if you plan to enable cheese, why not play in story mode?

I didn't enable cheese, that's just the way the game works. It's not like it makes it overpowered or anything, it just allows for a wider spell selection.

So I'm actually rethinking my party line up. Rather than the sole Ranger/Cleric, I might drop the Paladin and have a pure class Cleric and a Fighter/Druid. I just feel that my current lineup is a bit weak with Divine spells overall. That will give me 3 Arcane casters, 2 Divine and 1 character that's nothing but a tank.

RAM021

Belanos said:

So this is the party, I've come up with but I could use some advice:

Human Paladin (Undead Hunter)
Dwarf Fighter (Dwarven Defender)
Half-Elf Ranger/Cleric
Human Bard (Skald)
Elf Sorcerer (Dragon Disciple)
Gnome Illusionist/Thief

I'm debating on whether I should dump the Dwarf and go with a Fighter/Druid instead. While Arcane spells are well covered, I feel like I might be a bit weak on the Divine spells. Or maybe a Dwarf Fighter/Cleric? I do kind of like the idea of having a dwarf in the mix. Would a Fighter/Cleric be able to achieve Grandmastery at all?

Yes, F/D > Dwarven Defender. A Human Ftr dual to Cleric could Grandmaster, but a Dwarven F/C could not.

I would also make the Bard a HElf as well. Other than that, great party!

Fardragon said:

Well, if you plan to enable cheese, why not play in story mode?

So not cheese, so not enabled.

Abel

Zyzzogeton said:

Assuming at least 4 Fighters with 3 APR

4 x 3 attacks per party member x 4 party members = 48 damage per turn

6 summons, assume 1 attack per round, that's an additional 24 damage

At least 72 damage per turn

2 HP per round is big if damage is spread around by forcing the AI to switch targets. Also Mirror Image and Stoneskin only protect the Sorcerer, who is really is better off spending early picks on summoning spells, which draw attacks better.

Yes, I was wrong about the Skald and I actually decided to take one in my party.

Did you ever play HoF? I don't know how you'll manage to spread the kind of damage you see in this mode where a character that starts taking hits won't last more than a few rounds.
That's also why healing spells bar Heal are useless in combat.

Zyzzogeton

Yes I have, have you?

With summons the times your characters get hit should be significantly reduced to the point that all that get through is a few occassional pot shots that WCotS can handle.