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Quayle can't use his mace *Not an issue*

moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
edited November 2012 in Fixed
This is barely worth mentioning and may have already been fixed as I suspect it would take exactly two seconds to resolve.


Bug: Quayle is proficient in Mace, yet lacks the strength to equip one.

Fix: change his proficiency to another clerical melee weapon which his low strength allows for (club/quarterstaff).


I don't have BG installed to test myself but I seem to recall having this issue with BGTutu installed. Also confirmed in the Play it Hardcore guide;

http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_NPC_Rundown#Quayle

Post edited by Tanthalas on
BhryaenmlnevesesandmanCCL

Comments

  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863
    edited August 2012
    I think this is worth mentioning, because it results in rather a major bug when converting BG1 NPCs to the BG2 engine. Weapon attribute requirements (such as minimum strength) were not enforced in the BG1 engine due to a bug with that engine. Thus, it could get away with allowing Quayle to wield maces and other violations. The other related (and in some ways more major) issue is converting BG1 NPCs, their weapons and proficiencies to the BG2 system. It requires quite a bit of thought, and was poorly implemented in both Tutu and BGT originally, possibly because it was at least semi-automated. There is a post where @Ascension64 and I hashed out at some length what the proper proficiencies and weapons should be but I can't find it any more. At any rate, I think BGT represents the best implementation due to the discussion, consideration and agreement involved.

    On another related note, gnome NPCs got shafted so badly in BG1 I made a minimod for it, but it never really progressed further than allowing them some changes so they could wield their weapons (and has largely been subsumed by mods like BG1 NPC and Level 1 NPCs).

    BhryaenDazzuJamesAndreaColombo
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    On this topic, Quayle starts off with Larloch's Minor Drain and Horror when you pick him up. These are Necromancy, his opposition school. As awesome as that is, it's obviously an oversight.

  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,365
    @Coriander was totally aware of this already. Right, Cori? ;-)

  • CorianderCoriander Member Posts: 1,667
    I wasn't aware of his Necromantic dealings. I'll check to see if these have both been addressed.

    Quartz
  • hansolohansolo Member Posts: 136
    Quartz said:

    On this topic, Quayle starts off with Larloch's Minor Drain and Horror when you pick him up. These are Necromancy, his opposition school. As awesome as that is, it's obviously an oversight.

    Maybe it's an oversight, but it makes him kind of interesting without overpowering him. It's just two spells.
    Like Jaheira in BG2 also has some spells normally forbidden to Druids (maybe because she's a Harper).
    Kagain has 20 Con, Coran 20 Dex, Minsc's stats are not Ranger legal...

    That said, I'm not against fixing Quayle.
    But some small things beside the norm just make some characters more interesting.

    Elessarbigdogchris
  • ElessarElessar Member Posts: 44
    hansolo said:


    But some small things beside the norm just make some characters more interesting.

    I think that's why they made 3rd edition is so different from 2nd edition, though perhaps it goes too far in opening everything up. It does make character creation more fun, though

  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863
    I think spell assignments are an oversight in BG1, no real question about that if you look at them. As is gnomes and such getting shafted because they have crappy stats.

    Quartz
  • hansolohansolo Member Posts: 136
    edited September 2012
    @Miloch
    what do you mean with gnomes getting crappy stats?

    In BG1 classic Quayle functions well. It is the BG2 engine that causes problems, but that's something
    the original developers couldn't know beforehand.

    A lot of NPCs, not only Gnomes, have really bad stats to counterbalance some of their strengths.
    The Gnomes, too, especially Quayle is pretty strong in some regards.

    Post edited by hansolo on
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    Really?

    Quayle can't even cast his clerical spells without a chance of them failing - as someone previously said this puts him as a slow levelling Illusionist. In what way is he strong compared to any of the other arcane magic users of any other race?

    He is useless in all aspects and in exceeding in uselessness only by Garrick (who can actually given the right circumstances be pretty good as long as he is only expected to provide support).

  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    @decado: That was me, and it turns out I was wrong. While that is how Quayle would function in AD&D and should actually function in Baldur's Gate according to the manual, turns out they never implemented divine spell failure chance for low wisdom in the Infinity Engine.

    Because of that, he's actually a pretty capable caster. He's not going to excel in the arcane nor in the divine but can do both admirably in the same character.

    Honestly he'd be fine if they simply switched his weapon proficiency to quarterstaff.

    Quartz
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    Then I retract my statement :)

    I've never used him for much as he never gelled with my group. If I wanted a gnome in my BG1 group it would be Tiax all the way (he does rule all after all).

  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863
    hansolo said:

    @Miloch
    what do you mean with gnomes getting crappy stats? In BG1 classic Quayle functions well.

    Quayle is at the bottom of the list when it comes to attributes.
    image

  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    Wow - looking at Edwin it shows how little stats matter to pure arcane magic users (as long as they have their primary attribute sorted).

    Quartz
  • hansolohansolo Member Posts: 136
    edited September 2012
    @Miloch
    Sure, but these numbers don't tell much really.
    Quayle has indeed crappy stats, and despite of this he is a good caster.
    I'd say, that together with Edwin he's actually the best caster in BG1.
    And Edwin is, ironically, second last on your list.

    edit:
    Reading your first post above though, I appreciate your efforts to mod Quayle.
    I don't want to argue here, just pointing out that stats alone don't make or break an ADnD character.

    Imagine a sorceror character with all stats lower than 10. He's still immensely powerful, because to a sorceror, stats are not that important compared to the power of his spells.
    Quayle at least, needs to memorize his Spells, but Intelligence is his only strong point, so no problem there.
    He just doesn't get bonus priest spells from high Wisdom, but he has the most spellslots (maybe together with Edwin) of any NPC in BG1 anyway. And he's only 1 or 2 levels short of the respective pure class.

    Quartz
  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    I don't understand that chart. The hell is a quality rating?

    When it comes to stats, Garrick is the worst NPC in BG1. He only has a single, solitary stat that gives ANY bonuses, +2 dexterity. Tiax, Khalid, Xan, Branwen and Xzar also have 16 dexterity but Tiax, Khalid and Branwen have bonuses to HP per level from constitution and Xan and Xzar are both really good mages with 17 intellect.

    Quayle manages to be a pretty capable mage and still has +1 dex modifier and +3 saving throws vs. Wand and Spell.

    That list also has Yeslick really low, but Yeslick + Gauntlets of Dex + 2nd level mage spell "Strength" has the most overall positive bonuses to stats of any character in BG1.

    I guess my point is stats don't tell the whole story. Quayle still manages to be worthwhile while Garrick can't do a single thing right.

    Quartz
  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863
    Perhaps not, @hansolo + @sandmanCCL which is why I think Ergopad (the list is his) weighted the value of attributes. Edwin has a great INT and decent CON so as you say, he's a pretty good mage. Quayle on the other hand has average CON and WIS and low strength - not a great combination for a cleric (not to mention his negligible CHA, not that that matters much here). He has decent DEX and INT so if you give him a sling and let him stick to his illusionist spells, he probably does alright in the party. Still, very few folks ever have him in the party, judging from feedback in various posts.

  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    This got a fix months ago with a rework of all NPC proficiencies where salient and pertinent. Reticent to change canon NPC stats and incur the wrath of the Overseers, we changed some proficiencies to accommodate the stats already in place... And a slightly-more-than-two-seconds fix was determined: Mace requires a 10STR... Club requires a 5STR... ;-)

    I'd vote for better Small Folk stats, but I've already been shot down for heinous acts in that regard, so...

    Or as Quayle would put it: "Oh yeah?! Well I've got more smarts in my little finger than you've got in your little finger! No... wait a minute."

    Quartz
  • hansolohansolo Member Posts: 136
    edited September 2012
    "If you were smarter, You'd enjoy my company more!"
    - Quayle ;)

  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    @Miloch: Again, you are overestimating the importance of Wisdom. It is easily the weakest of any "main" attribute for any class.

    Let's speak hypothetical XP cap. Solo clerics max at level 8. Multi-classed clerics max at level 7.

    http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts#Cleric

    From levels, Quayle only loses 1 level 3 spell and 1 level 4 spell compared to Branwen and Viconia.

    (Every other cleric is either multi- or dual-classed. Faldorn is actually the best divine spellcaster in terms of raw spells by the end of Baldur's Gate 1 as she is tied for highest wisdom and druids end at level 10.)

    Now let's talk stats.

    http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Races_and_Stats#Wisdom

    Quayle loses out on 2 level 1 spells and a level 2 spell compared to Viconia, and another 2nd level spell compared to Branwen and Yeslick.

    At max, he's short a grand total of 6 divine spells when compared to Branwen. He's still got 9 divine spells (3/3/2/1) by cap. (He's short a lot compared to Faldorn, including 2 level 5 spells. But no one seems to think of her when talking divine spell casters, including myself. I need to rectify that.)

    However, he's still got access to 14 arcane spells (5/4/3/2 by level). If you want to send his spells per day off the charts, you can rig him up with Ring of Wizardry AND Ring of Holiness AND Amulet of Meta-Spell Influence for a grand total of 10 extra spells. No other NPC can do that. That gives him 33 spells per day. 34, if you consider his free invisibility once a day as a spell.

    Faldorn has 24 total spells by level cap + Ring of Holiness and Edwin has 25 with a ring of wizardy. (I think. Kind of fuzzy about the details on how Edwin's amulet works off the top of my head.)

    Pretty hard to argue that is "bad." Plus, he's got better saving throws than any other mage or cleric you can get due being a gnome.

    Do his stats shine out? No, not particularly. They are still passable in their own right, and just the mere fact he's a cleric/illusionist makes him good.

    Not that I'd recommend it, but if you want him to tank you can do that. While his AC isn't going to be as good as a cleric rolling around in a full plate, it's still decent with Robes of the Archmagi + gauntlets of Dex (or better than Robes, just throwing Ghost Armor on yourself), and unlike other clerics he can cast Blur + Mirror Image + Protection from Normal Missiles + Minor Globe of Invulnerability on himself. He can still get good strength through use of Strength. He'll have low HP but it isn't like any of the other clerics save Yeslick are much better.

    He's perfectly capable hanging in the back chucking rocks. He's actually better at that than Edwin or Dynaheir because he'll have better Thac0 with ranged weapons.

    QuartzIsair
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    Good to hear this has been fixed. Sort of. Haha. Well, better than nothin'!

    @sandmanCCL You always make the best posts man.

    Shoot, I really like your points here on Quayle. Cleric/Illusionist really is just beast. Yeah, I always had fun giving him both the Ring of Holiness and Ring of Wizardry ... it's kinda epic!

    I also appreciate your mention of Faldorn.

  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    I did sort of dedicate an entire summer to exploring and exploiting every meta-game fact I cound find at the time about the game so I could solo it as a bard and write a wiki for the BG Saga. :D Thanks, man. I appreciate it.

    It opened my eyes to a lot of cool little things you can do in the game. I learned to appreciate just about every NPC. When I was a kid, I got caught up in the stats race too so I missed out on how awesome Tiax and Khalid could be, among others. With a little know-how, it's pretty easy to make the entire saga your b**** even on the hardest difficulty.

  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    It opened my eyes to a lot of cool little things you can do in the game. I learned to appreciate just about every NPC. When I was a kid, I got caught up in the stats race too so I missed out on how awesome Tiax and Khalid could be, among others. With a little know-how, it's pretty easy to make the entire saga your b**** even on the hardest difficulty.
    Yeah man, exactly. I used to be the same way, but now I really enjoy picking up every NPC for their personality, and trying to make them awesome despite their imperfections. It's part of the fun of the game and it has recently caused me to prefer BG1 over BG2.

  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,593
    I'd rather have Biff the Understudy as a party member than Quayle.

    SethDavis
  • BalquoBalquo Member, Developer Posts: 2,746
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