The Way It Is Meant To Be Played (TM) -- an OCDers guide to making IWDEE a challenge
Ygramul
Member Posts: 1,059
In the following, I explain some of my ground rules, which, in my opinion, make IWDEE an enjoyable and challenging experience. Without them the game is either too easy or just artificially burdened. You are welcome to chime in with your variations:
* Axiom 1: CORE DIFFICULTY only -- this is what D&D is 'balanced' for (more or less, anyway). Anything else is too easy or a drudge (artificially high HPs etc.; e.g., Heart Fury just renders irrelevant a lot of interesting spells & strategies).
* Axiom 2: NO-RELOAD only -- without this, why bother? Nothing is a challenge.
If something goes south, you learn to deal with it. If your party cannot make it back to town and you are wiped out in ambush, back to the drawing board you go.
* Axiom 3: IWDEE is a cakewalk for a player that knows the system, especially the spells. A solo-sorcerer can wipe the floor with the game, if played competently.
Unfortunately, they couldn't revamp the AI and there is no SCS-level challenge here:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/36183/ai-contingencies-sequencers-meta-magic-so-how-is-it
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As corollaries to these axioms, I play with the following rules:
* Rule 1: No adjusting ability scores!
Reroll if you must, but no touching the +/- buttons!
D&D was not designed for minimaxers; no sane DM would let you do it.
If you have a team of agile, strong, tough, genius Supermen, what is the challenge.
This rule ensures that every character has flaws.
* Rule 2: No-reloads.
In addition to making the gameplay actually meaningful, this also specifically implies:
- spell learning failures! (there aren't many potions of genius; you WILL fail to learn some key spells, unless you are a specialist in that school (with the +15% bonus to memorization)!
- finicky HP pools. At end game your paladin with 15/17/13/12/10/17 (a very good roll actually; see Rule 1) will probably have about ~50-60 HP. Deal with it.
* Rule 3: Non-munchking party design.
... by this I mean, basically, being merciful in picking classes:
- dual-classed humans are game breakers; there is almost no point to having a single class mage, instead of something like: Berserker 7 -> Mage X. Resist the munchkin temptation!
- No sorcerers (unless thematically gimped, such as an Enchantment-heavy build). A well designed sorcerer can solo the game, even with 5 slackers doing hardly any work. Limited mage presence, in general, unless you wish no challenge.
- No abuse of contingencies, sequencers etc.: AI cannot deal with it (see link above). Basically, don't do anything that the AI cannot do.
With these rules, the game is a well balanced challenge.
In another message, I'll post my current party. Feel free to chime in with yours.
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Comments
I may come back in a later run and try playing with these hard core rules. It sounds like it would be very interesting and fun.
I remember how my DM from my high school table top days did things - it was a straight up roll 4d6 for every attribute, drop the lowest of each roll, and start all over if you didn't qualify for the class you wanted to play.
Those were the days. Even if you rolled a fighter with 18/00 STR, your DEX and CON were likely to be 9's or worse, and you had the same chance of dying as any "weak, soft" mage. Having any stat bonuses at all was very rare, and it was like winning the lottery if you got a single plus one bonus on any stat. We had to work together as a team, coordinating our strengths and defending our weaknesses, or we TPK'd - against goblins and orcs.
I always sigh and roll my eyes a bit at the folks who sometimes whine "The game is too easy with my party of all 18's in stats, multi-classed and dual classed toons, and I've memorized every encounter in the game and I can beat them before they start. I want more difficulty!"
* No RESALE of obscenely priced items (e.g., arrows)!
In IWD2, especially, I remember a stack of 40 heavily enchanted arrows giving over 10,000 gold. Gold stops being meaningful later on, unless you limit yourself...
I allowed myself to roll as many times as I wanted for each character, but absolutely no use of the + or - buttons.
I will play a party of four. I just love the "back to basics" idea of warrior-priest-rogue-sorcerer.
I fully expect to have some TPK's with this party, especially in scenarios like the Yxunomei scenario, so I will play a minimal reload as opposed to no-reload. We can assume some divine intervention from Lathander, or some such, if necessary.
The roleplay idea is to have a party dedicated to eradicating undead hordes in the North in the name of Lathander.
Here they are:
[spoiler]
Have you heard of Jukka Mikkonnen/Retchet? That's how I play.
He's the guy that wrote the JUPP, isn't he?
Man, I had so much fun reading that thing...
IWD2 was a blast. Fond memories all around.
I had to retreat/return back and forth from town, kite, and use a lot of healing potions and spells to defeat the first ogre outside of Easthaven, and it was very rewarding to finally kill it.
In Kuldahar Pass, I had my pally get killed by a few consecutive lucky hits from the feeding goblin mobs, and I had to make a desperate run to Kuldahar with my surviving three party members to get him raised. While I was there, I killed the yetis and completed the inn quest for desperately needed xp, as well as buying a Find Familiar scroll for my sorcerer to get him desperately needed hit points. I was then able return to Kuldahar Pass to finish the old mill dungeon there.
The shield +2 we got was desperately needed for my pally, who has no dexterity bonus to AC, bringing him from a lousy AC3 to AC1. Anything I can find with even +1 to AC is going to be heaven sent.
The lack of extra hp from constitution bonuses isn't really making as much difference as you'd think, but my front line pally moving from 10 hp to 20 hp, and then to 30 hp makes me want to cheer at every level up. (Yeah, I do have max hp turned on. I want a challenge, but I'm not a masochist.)
My cleric's healing and turn undead abilities are more awesome and important than ever now that we're in the Vale of Shadows.
I now have a pally level 3, priest level 3, thief level 4, and sorcerer level 3. I must say, these have been the most challenging and fulfilling 3-4 levels I've ever played in a D&D game since my tabletop days. This is an awesome way to play the game.
Every won battle is a major accomplishment, and cause for celebration. Thanks for the inspiration, @Ygramul.
I sent him a bunch of tips, which he incorporated but never credited me with. Oh well.
I will add one
Max of TWO races
With party leader race getting majority in party
Example. Group of humans and dwarfs total of six in group
Human leader. Group is at least 4 humans and the rest dwarfs
Halfling Barbarian, Halfling Assassin or Bounty Hunter, Gnome cleric thief, F/I, Berserker or Kensai and C/I. Not very powerful, but pretty interesting maybe. Limited arcane obviously, as only illusionists.
doing a shorty party
i also don't like other rules mentioned in the thread other than ones in the first post.
how about no artifical self-limitations in the gameworld, it's cheesy in itself. milking the poor game for the challenge that simply isn't there.
beholders are going to be nasty enough.
... my Cavalier just made to lvl 6 and has a hopping 25 HP.
This is a Cavalier, mind you, so staying behind isn't exactly an option.
He is actually holding the front line quite well, with every buff and item given to help him, but if he gets a paper cut, one my divine casters has to rush to heal him.
The challenge is fantastic! The whole party is teaming together and when even one falls the effect is felt and we must retreat.
Deviating from your rule set I will do min reload (only if one char dies permanently or party is wiped out), otherwise I think I will get frustrated. I am still deciding on max hp on level up, but I am tending to leave it to core.
I am going to use only Single Class chars (Kits allowed). No use of the +/- button but re-roll ad infinitum.
Only Humans and Half-Elves will be in the Party.
Classes will be:
Human Barbarian
Half-Elf vanilla Bard
Human Dragon Disciple (will not use any sequencers or contingencies, nor necromancy spells)
Half-Elf Totemic Druid
Human Priest of Tempus
Half-Elf Swashbuckler
I will post my Charactersheets here, when I am done pregenerating.
But first I will have to finish my super-munchkin powergamer multi-dual-classing minmax abusing insane play-through (IWD finished, HoW and ToL still to do), although it starts to be very boring as you just roll over everything. This is the reason, why your idea is so appealing to me. I want a real challenge with believable chars but without artifically pimping up the enemies (HoF).
It also helps to have various off-tanks:
My Blade, now past lvl 6, can cast Mirror Image, and last a few rounds with defensive spin on the front line. But once the Mirror Image is depleted he's dead (your AC doesn't matter with 5 tough lizardmen wailing at you; they will crit often enough that you will die, especially without a helmet.)
First, scout!
(You do have an invisible scout, don't you?)
[first slide please]
Here is a nasty looking undead ambush, there are actually also a horde of poison zombies north of the screen. My thief has cleaned all the traps in the area at this point.
Note that my front liner Cavalier has the lowest HP of the group with 25HP (and +10 from the wolf charm, thank Tyr!)
Imbued Wights near entrance to the room imply insta-death for the paladin (Magic Missile storm).
So, my bard casts Shield, says Peekaboo at the room entrance, and gets them to waste their Magic Missiles. Then promptly run back behind the line.
[second slide please]
Tactical retreat with most party; Cavalier casts Free Action [from cloak]; mage casts Web entangling most of the zombies (normal disabling spells are useless against undead). Next up: Fireball-in-the-hole! (Yes, it's gonna singe the cavalier, but the damage ratio is good. Followed by cleanup. Lastly, we rush the remaining mage and its all good.
I love it when a plan comes together.
Good thing is I've played so much more BG I literally don't remember the game other than the Valley vaguely and then there's some Yuan Ti shortly after so should be a nice challenge from that perspective, I might even bother to scout!
Siorfin - Cavalier 12-10-17-13-15-17
Alanna - Avenger 8 - 16 - 8 - 14 -13 -17
Leila - Fighter Mage -13 - 9 - 13 - 15 -12 -14
Fragrog - Priest of Tempus - 14 - 11 - 12 -18 - 11 - 11 (ONE spell at lvl one what a waste of space)
San-Raal Enchanter 11-18-8-17-9-17
Freya Fighter Thief 11-18-12-14-13-10
Fighter/Druid 16 - 17 - 17 - 10 - 17 - 16
Fighter/Cleric 15 - 13 - 18 - 11 - 15 - 11
Stalker 14 - 18 - 17 - 13 - 14 - 11
Swashbuckler 15 - 17 - 14 - 10 - 10 - 14
Fighter/Mage 15 - 19 - 15 - 16 - 13 - 15 pretty awesome roll
Archer 17 - 19 - 14 - 11 - 15 - 10
I can't risk the swashbuckler and F/M in a fight as long as they don't lvl up, with respectively 6 and 8 hp -_-
3 multiclass with 6 players party it will be slow to lvl up but at least they can all tank somehow and if one or two die I can still go on until I resurrect them. one thing I can say, archer is saving the day so far.
You are braver than me: I rerolled my Cavalier till I got STR=15 at least, so I can put some armor on him. STR=12 will be a challenge, indeed. He is still too wimpy to stand on the front line for too long unaided...
I fear that the greatest issue is actually the AI:
I just beat up Yxunomei! Covering my retreating line with Spike Growth, Web, Fireball, etc.
Even with all the limitations, the challenge only clocks at...
"consistently beatable, if played well & with autopause options"
... which is fine.
But it ain't no BG2 with SCS. Where your chances of making to end game are uneven.
I myself started on a slightly different ruleset.
You can see my character sheets and pogress on this thread.
Thanks again at @Ygramul for inspiring me.
Hit point rolls have been crucial. My cavalier at lvl 4 has 47 HP which is so lucky but really coming in handy as he gets hit constantly with his awful Dex.
My F/M and F/T have 18 hp at lvl 3/3 AND I used find familiar on the FM, the most HP she has had on a level up has been 2 so I don't see her hitting the front lines any time soon. She's using a shortbow even though has no proficiency in it.
Cleric has 23 hp at 4 which is ok, he's the backup tank. The Chaos of Battle spell is very useful if you get the extra HP.
Enchanter has 13 HP at 4 which is pretty good I think, sadly I didn't realise quite how restricted his specialism is so all he does is cast a few Melf AA on the normal weapon immune undead and identify stuff.
Avenger is pretty useful, finding Sunray and Alicorn lance good spells so far.
Animate Dead alone can carry the party very far.
Currently, I play with:
** NO Animate Dead [evil act for a LG party]
** Only mage Invoker :: i.e. no Conjuration spells
** Bard as only summoner, who uses a single Summon Monster per rest.
(They are used for panicky stop gaps to buy a round or two when surrounded.)
edit: so it's obviously not "The Way It Is Meant To Be Played" any more, too bad.
The game "AS IS" is unplayable for me: it's too easy and useless as a game, unless restrained a bit.
Though you are right that ground rules should be kept simple:
The original three above can be summarized as simply:
"NO MUNCHKINING".