#10429 [All] Dual classes should not be restricted to 8 million total xp between their two classes.
DragonRider
Member Posts: 43
I noticed that in the IWD:EE Manual the XP cap was stated to be 8,000,000. I looked in my original IWD HoW Manual and there it states that the XP cap isn't a hard number, but allows all character to reach a maximum level of 30. At first I thought the IWD:EE maunal might have erroneously stated the XP cap for BGII-ToB, so I thought I'd test it out. Below are my findings:
Original IWD Game:
Single Class characters: Capped out at level 30.
Dual Class characters: Capped out at up to level 29 (first class) / Level 30 (Second class)
Multiclass characters: Capped out at level 30/30 or level 30/30/30.
In IWD:EE
- Single Class characters have a maximum level of 30. Once they reach level 30, the character record shows that their next level requires greater than 8,000,000 XP. Once a Single Class character earns 8,000,000 XP, they no longer gain any more XP. They can kill things and quest (or even CLUACONSOLE), but they will never gain more than 8,000,000 XP.
- Dual Class characters are bound by both the level 30 cap AND the XP cap of 8,000,000 XP. This is different than the original IWD game. Like the Single Class character, a Dual Class cannot gain more than 8,000,000 XP. The amount of XP earned in BOTH classes is added together and CANNOT go over 8,000,000. If a character starts their second class after earning 3,000,000 XP in their first class, they will never be able to earn more than 5,000,000 XP in their second class. For characters who dual class very early on, this is not an issue. However, this change really impacts people who want to build up spell casting, weapon proficiencies, or thief abilities before starting their second class. Especially if they want their second class the be Mage (7,500,000 XP is required to reach level 30, so if more than 500,000 XP is earned in the first class that character CANNOT reach level 30 in the Mage class).
- Multiclass Characters have a maximum level of 30 for all of their classes. Unlike Dual Class characters, the 8,000,000 XP cap is NOT shared among the Multiclass character's classes. Each class can earn up to the cap of 8,000,000 XP, allowing multiclass characters to reach level 30 in ALL of their classes.
There's definitely an inconsistency between Dual Class and Multiclass characters. While it is possible that Dual and Multiclass characters are working as designed, my hunch is that one of the following is true:
1) The new XP cap (8,000,000 XPP) listed in the IWD:EE Manual is correct but there is a bug with Multiclass characters allowing them to earn 16,000,000 XP (for Multiclass characters with 2 classes) or 24,000,000 XP (for Mulitclass characters with 3 classes). If this is the case than multiclass characters should work like Dual Class characters currently do. A multiclass character with 2 classes should only be able to earn 4,000,000 XP in each class and a multiclass character with 3 classes should only be able to earn 2,666,667 XP in each class.
2) The new IWD:EE manual is in error and there is a bug with Dual class characters where there is now an 8,000,000 XP cap that applies to the sum of the experience the character has earned in both the first and the second class. If this is true, then Dual Class characters should work like Multiclass characters currently do, allowing them to reach up to level 29 in their first class and level 30 in their second.
I know this post is already extremely long, but the Beamdog folks have asked posters to provide repeatable steps that lead to the bug, so here goes:
0. if not already there, Add ('Program Options' 'Debug Mode' '1') to the .ini file
1. Create a new IWD Game.
2. Delete at least 2 of the default characters
3. Create a Human character and choose a class that is capable of Dual classing (Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Mage, Ranger, Thief).
4. Press Control+8 to get 18s in all statistics
5. Finish creating the character as desired.
6. Create a non-Human character and select any multiclass combination you want.
7. Press Control+8 to get 18s in all statistics
8. Finish creating the character as desired.
9. Click Play to tart the game.
10. Click through Hrothgar's dialog and select the entire party
11. Press Control+Space to bring up the console
12. Type: C:SetCurrentXP(4000000)
13. Level up the Human character you create in steps 3. through 5.
14. Dual Class the Human character to whatever class you want.
15. Level up the multiclass character you create in steps 6. through 8.
16. Select the entire party and Press Control+Space to bring up the console
17. Type: C:SetCurrentXP(9000000)
Result:
The Human character will only have a total of 8,000,000 XP (approximately 4,000,000 in the first class and approximately 4,000,000 in the second class).
The Multiclass character will have a total of 9,000,000 XP (4,500,000 in each class if the character has 2 classess or 3,000,000 in each class if the character has 3 classes).
Expected Results:
Either one of the following:
1) The Human should have more than 8,000,000 XP (approximately 4,000,000 in the first class and up to approximately 5,000,000 in the second class).
2) The Multiclass character should only have a total of 8,000,000 XP, split evenly among his/her classes (4,000,000 in each classs if the character has 2 classess or 2,666,667 in each class if the character has 3 classes).
Original IWD Game:
Single Class characters: Capped out at level 30.
Dual Class characters: Capped out at up to level 29 (first class) / Level 30 (Second class)
Multiclass characters: Capped out at level 30/30 or level 30/30/30.
In IWD:EE
- Single Class characters have a maximum level of 30. Once they reach level 30, the character record shows that their next level requires greater than 8,000,000 XP. Once a Single Class character earns 8,000,000 XP, they no longer gain any more XP. They can kill things and quest (or even CLUACONSOLE), but they will never gain more than 8,000,000 XP.
- Dual Class characters are bound by both the level 30 cap AND the XP cap of 8,000,000 XP. This is different than the original IWD game. Like the Single Class character, a Dual Class cannot gain more than 8,000,000 XP. The amount of XP earned in BOTH classes is added together and CANNOT go over 8,000,000. If a character starts their second class after earning 3,000,000 XP in their first class, they will never be able to earn more than 5,000,000 XP in their second class. For characters who dual class very early on, this is not an issue. However, this change really impacts people who want to build up spell casting, weapon proficiencies, or thief abilities before starting their second class. Especially if they want their second class the be Mage (7,500,000 XP is required to reach level 30, so if more than 500,000 XP is earned in the first class that character CANNOT reach level 30 in the Mage class).
- Multiclass Characters have a maximum level of 30 for all of their classes. Unlike Dual Class characters, the 8,000,000 XP cap is NOT shared among the Multiclass character's classes. Each class can earn up to the cap of 8,000,000 XP, allowing multiclass characters to reach level 30 in ALL of their classes.
There's definitely an inconsistency between Dual Class and Multiclass characters. While it is possible that Dual and Multiclass characters are working as designed, my hunch is that one of the following is true:
1) The new XP cap (8,000,000 XPP) listed in the IWD:EE Manual is correct but there is a bug with Multiclass characters allowing them to earn 16,000,000 XP (for Multiclass characters with 2 classes) or 24,000,000 XP (for Mulitclass characters with 3 classes). If this is the case than multiclass characters should work like Dual Class characters currently do. A multiclass character with 2 classes should only be able to earn 4,000,000 XP in each class and a multiclass character with 3 classes should only be able to earn 2,666,667 XP in each class.
2) The new IWD:EE manual is in error and there is a bug with Dual class characters where there is now an 8,000,000 XP cap that applies to the sum of the experience the character has earned in both the first and the second class. If this is true, then Dual Class characters should work like Multiclass characters currently do, allowing them to reach up to level 29 in their first class and level 30 in their second.
I know this post is already extremely long, but the Beamdog folks have asked posters to provide repeatable steps that lead to the bug, so here goes:
0. if not already there, Add ('Program Options' 'Debug Mode' '1') to the .ini file
1. Create a new IWD Game.
2. Delete at least 2 of the default characters
3. Create a Human character and choose a class that is capable of Dual classing (Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Mage, Ranger, Thief).
4. Press Control+8 to get 18s in all statistics
5. Finish creating the character as desired.
6. Create a non-Human character and select any multiclass combination you want.
7. Press Control+8 to get 18s in all statistics
8. Finish creating the character as desired.
9. Click Play to tart the game.
10. Click through Hrothgar's dialog and select the entire party
11. Press Control+Space to bring up the console
12. Type: C:SetCurrentXP(4000000)
13. Level up the Human character you create in steps 3. through 5.
14. Dual Class the Human character to whatever class you want.
15. Level up the multiclass character you create in steps 6. through 8.
16. Select the entire party and Press Control+Space to bring up the console
17. Type: C:SetCurrentXP(9000000)
Result:
The Human character will only have a total of 8,000,000 XP (approximately 4,000,000 in the first class and approximately 4,000,000 in the second class).
The Multiclass character will have a total of 9,000,000 XP (4,500,000 in each class if the character has 2 classess or 3,000,000 in each class if the character has 3 classes).
Expected Results:
Either one of the following:
1) The Human should have more than 8,000,000 XP (approximately 4,000,000 in the first class and up to approximately 5,000,000 in the second class).
2) The Multiclass character should only have a total of 8,000,000 XP, split evenly among his/her classes (4,000,000 in each classs if the character has 2 classess or 2,666,667 in each class if the character has 3 classes).
Post edited by Jalily on
4
Comments
Where you're allowing this much XP to be gained, there is NO benefit to a single class character. The D&D second edition table top rules engine itself is based around the concept that you will NEVER get to high level play (nothing beyond 18th - 20th level). Thus the ONLY way to get to play high level characters is to play single class. It becomes a TRUE tradeoff: High level masters of a single trade or a mid level jack of all trades.
1) Part of the problem with IWD in this case is it implements a level cap and not just an XP cap. If the difference were an xp cap only, you'd have 50th level SC characters and 30th level Triple class characters...and that's supposed to be a significant difference in play EXCEPT...
2) AD&D Rules (first, second, third, etc. etc.) have always made levels diminishing returns. After level 10, you lose the vast majority of the statistical bonuses to level...and after about level 20 (where THACO overtakes possible Armor Class gains) there is pretty much no difference level to level except for caster classes which gain additional spell slots...even then, the returns are diminishing because any battle at that level can only last for a limited period of time...either you are blowing away your opponent or they are blowing you away...there is really no such thing as a slogged out battle of attrition. Thus more spells only allow you to fight more battles before you have to click the sleep button...after about 10th level or so it's pretty much impossible to cast all the spells you've learned every battle anyway. Again, this is important in tabletop play where time matters, but not so much in AD&D Computer games which have no time based events whereby the player can "lose" to time. Baldur's gate doesn't "fall" to Saravok if you don't reach it in 15 days time...etc.
Even if you removed the level cap, a 50th level SC <<<<< A 30th level Fighter/Mage/Cleric. No Single Class has the same flexibility and your SC has gained 20 levels of 1 or 2 hit points and it's THACO has already long since reached the point where it can only not hit on a natural 1...no matter what the AC of the thing you're fighting.
Regarding the mechanics of the issue you're reporting: The XP cap is implemented in such a way that the character cannot have a class with over 8M XP. It just takes 24M XP to GET a triple class character at the 8M XP on 1 class. Dual classes lose out because the XP counter doesn't reset back to 0 when you Dual out.
I agree with you regarding pretty much every point you brought up. Thank you for taking the time to explain all of that.
I don't believe that Dual Class characters should not lose out though. They did not lose out like this in the original game, and could reach up to level 29 in their first class and level 30 in their second. I believe that the XP counter should get reset when the character duals out of his/her first class.
You are 100% correct though that a triple multiclass (or in many cases even a double multiclass) character will still be much more versatile than a dual class character. Multiclass characters have all of their classes and abilities active and available all the time. Dual class characters only have 1 class available to them for a good portion of time (how long depends on when they switch to their second class). There are some things that a dual class character has over a multiclass character though. The biggest one for me is that dual class characters can have their first class be a kit whereas multiclass characters get all generic classes (with the exception of gnomes who get the illusionist kit if they are multiclass mages). This allows for some fun kit/class combinations. To me, that makes dual classing worth while in some instances.
Again, thank you for taking the time to write up that analysis. I found it very insightful.