i found two longswords of action +4

bob_veng

is this intended? was it like this in the original? i don't remember there being two.

one was a random drop i think somewhere in HoW and one is an assigned drop in Lonelywood.

this is a bit too much imho. makes those spectral guards a cakewalk with a relatively low level party.

Frogman

Can you mail one of them to my party please?

Cedeos

I remember long time ago I also got two Longswords of Action +4 in original IWD.
Back then it was just another char getting 1 attack more.
But now a fighter/mage dual wielding two LS of Action +4 would get 5.5 ApR with improved haste I think it would be 10 (capped) which means an improved version of Greater Whirlwind.

bob_veng

@Frogman
there's one that you definitely find, so don't worry

but two is overkill come on

on a single character, that totals:
+2 ac
+30% slashing resist
+2 apr

with the bone marrow belt (+50% slashing resist) thats 80% right off the bat

and, especially with the elf bonus, they are a good main hand weapon too.

Lord_Tansheron

The amount of +APR items does seem a tad bit silly. Two +1 APR weapons at +4 enchantment? My BG2 party just fainted a little.

bob_veng

there's also a +1 apr flail, a mace and a scimitar

so it's at least 5 potentialyl obtainable +1 apr single-handed weapons.

Ancalagon44

I found the +1 apr flail. It is a +2 weapon.

Lord_Tansheron

There's even a +APR *ring*! And GM gives 3/2 APR! They really do want you to dish out shattering amounts of damage, don't they :P

bob_veng

here the slashing restistance is especially egregious i think. it's so easy to get 95% slashing resist mid-game.

2x weapon (30%) + 1x belt (50%) + armor of faith (15%)

and it's not like most enemies don't deal slashing damage.

***
now seriously - one of these swords should be dropped from the game, what do you think?

also their item description is for a mundane longsword. can we add some flavor there?

TvrtkoSvrdlar

@bob_veng‌
While I understand why you want to limit yourself to what items your party obtains, please don't petition the devs to remove gear from the game.

I respect everyone's right to play the game the way they want, but implemented demands similar to yours would mean that the game is diminished for people who *do* want more frenzy and mayhem, while, in your case, you can simply ignore the items you don't want/like.

Also, take into account that many of the aforementioned items are random drops.

And it's not like it's that hard to 'break' the game anyway.

So, less items = bad; more items = good.

Even if they are a bit too power-game-y!

bob_veng

it's okay to disagree, but you can't expect me to care about your views more than my own. i simply think that two of these descriptionless god-items should not be in the game.
there should be only one and it should have a unique description.
since dual wielding has been brought over from bg2 some slight balance adjustments should be made.

i don't genuinely care about old players and their enjoyment. they've played the game enough. i just care about the game-as-such in that it works well according to rational criteria. new players won't miss anything. think about the future generations. think about the legacy.

Cedeos

I agree with @bob_veng‌ - such powerful items like the LS of Action +4 and the like should be unique with a unique description for the sake of immersiveness. It will pay on the long run as the game becomes more believable and less Diablo like.

Mathsorcerer

It is possible to find that sword twice via random drops--you got lucky so enjoy them. Yes, they are even better when combined with the Ring of Reckless Action, one of my favorite items in the entire game.

bob_veng

i want some graphics for this sword too, it looks like a +1 sword

all +4 weapons should have unique item icons. a recoloring will do just fine.

@Mathsorcerer - one of the drops isn't random, i'm pretty sure.
what do you think about the fact that these sword weren't *that* impressive in the original game and now they are absolutely crazy since you can put two on 1 char for a mad apr + damage resist bonus?

***
okay ppl, here is a relevant observation:

the original game didin't have two of these available - one was in a lonelywood encounter, not random and the other one was added as a random drop in UB.
read at the bottom: http://www.gibberlings3.net/ub_iwd/

so it's a restoration/alteration of the original and not a very fortunate one. not every restoration has to work to good effect.

in a future patch some of these items could be addresed to remove extra cheese and to give some brief unique descriptions and recolored item icons.

remember that this was done for bg2:ee. some items were improved fluff-wise. an already existing weapon was even adapted for a new kit (the "evil carsomyr").

Mathsorcerer

A +4 sword that lowers your AC by 1, gives 15% slashing resistance, and 1 extra attack per round isn't impressive? *shrug* I am not going to try to convince you otherwise since it really isn't that important. I will admit that dual-wielding two of these weapons is a good thing when you are in HoF mode, though--most HoF creatures are going to hit you no matter how low your AC gets so having physical resistances is highly important, as is having the ability to hit them more often.

Now, on some of the others things, specifically the lack of unique flavor text and its icon looking like a generic long sword, I agree completely--those are most likely due to the sword being restored originally via UB. Fortunately, both of those things are easily fixed with only a few minutes of work. That being said, I am not in charge of putting out patches or fixes for things so I have no idea if those will ever be addressed.

bob_veng

you're twisting my words, i said that it "wasn't *that* impressive"

you must already understand what happens to +1 apr weapons after adding dual wielding where previously there was none - they increase manyfold in power

especially if you can stack the corresponding bonuses from two of them, namely the incredibly useful slashing resistance and ac bonus.

plus they are +4 on top of everything.

AlexT

bob_veng said:

so it's a restoration/alteration of the original and not a very fortunate one.

Just to clarify, the Unfinished Business component which restores items that were deliberately removed in HoW by the original developers (due to balance concerns) was not included in IWD:EE. There were always two Long Swords of Action +4 in the game. This is not something that IWD:EE changed in any way.

The first one is found in Lonelywood, on the corpse of one of the mercenary warriors from the group that is searching for Kieran. The second one is found in Geddian's sarcohagus (AR9714) in Trials of the Luremaster.

Mathsorcerer

Twisting any of your words was not my intention.

bob_veng

AlexT said:

bob_veng said:

so it's a restoration/alteration of the original and not a very fortunate one.

Just to clarify, the Unfinished Business component which restores items that were deliberately removed in HoW by the original developers (due to balance concerns) was not included in IWD:EE. There were always two Long Swords of Action +4 in the game. This is not something that IWD:EE changed in any way.

The first one is found in Lonelywood, on the corpse of one of the mercenary warriors from the group that is searching for Kieran. The second one is found in Geddian's sarcohagus (AR9714) in Trials of the Luremaster.

re:spoiler - that's right, that's where i found it, i remember now.
thanks for clearing things up.

do you have any feelings, personally about nerfing one of them, for example downgrading one of them to a longsword of action +2 (no apr bonus) or switching it for a different weapon.

how about moving one of them outside of HoW to a late stage of IWD campaign, maybe the final chapter?

i have to complain about this, the game is reeeeeeealy easy now because of inceased physical output of your characters due to dual wielding and porting of bg2 strategies (apr bonuses + imp. haste). for example the totl final battle is not really hard anymore!
this is a much bigger alteration to the original game then just changing one item.

do you have an opinion on adding graphics for +4 weapons and maybe some brief descriptions?

***
okay here's my creative contribution to this apparent problem:

- change one of the swords to grant +1 dex instead of +1 apr like the "longsword of action+2", alongside other bonuses
- have the other sword switched for a differently named +1 apr +4 longsword that doesn't grant +15 slashing resist

OR

- keep one untouched
- switch the other one for a newly created 'longsword of action +3' (+1 dex, +1 ac, +5 slashing resist)

kensai

so what's the problem really? If two swords are too much for someone he can always sell it to the shop

bob_veng

i imagine an adventurer thinking: "hmm...these two swords i found work simply too well in tandem, so much power in my hands gives me an anxiety disorder - i'll just get rid of one of them!"

kensai

bob_veng said:

i imagine an adventurer thinking: "hmm...these two swords i found work simply too well in tandem, so much power in my hands gives me an anxiety disorder - i'll just get rid of one of them!"

well I can't imagine an adventurer posting on forum about this either!

Koyote

Out of curiosity, can you go beyond 5 attacks per round dual wielding weapons of action? I always thought it was capped at 5 pre haste.

bob_veng

yeah, you can, but only in IWD:EE:
1 base + 1 fighter levels + 0.5 specialization + 1 grandmastery + 2 weapon bonuses = 5.5 apr

with the ring that's 6.5 apr

...on the other hand, unlike BG series, you can have great APR with two handed weapons:
1 base + 1 fighter levels + 0.5 specialization + 1 grandmastery = 3.5 apr

with the ring, that's 4.5 apr and with improved haste that's nine apr woo!

but the ring is a rare random drop
and two handed weapons are meh.

the only cap that exists in the engine is 10 irrespective of haste or any modifiers. the real value just gets truncated to 10

Ramza

While I haven't tested this myself, as I have yet to find enough extra APR weapons in the game, I don't think you can exceed 5 APR without Whirlwind or Improved Haste.

In the original engines, the APRs were coded in a weird sequence where exceeding 5 APR caused you to drop to 3/2 APR, because the table went 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, 4.5 and an extra APR weapon was coded to increment the table by 1.

If you look in EEKeeper even now, there are no values for anything higher than 5. Improved haste is coded such that it cuts the length of your round in half to facilitate double APR. Without improved haste, it's impossible to have more than 5 APR.

edit:
I think someone could test this pretty easily by using a 13th level fighter with grand mastery in darts. Dart have 3 APR. Specialization + Grand Mastery grants another 1.5 for 9/2, 7th level fighter grants another 1/2 for 5. 13th level fighter would also grant another 1/2 but doesn't, as 5 APR is the limit.

bob_veng

you're right. just tested...amazing.

i really really didn't know this. when i was writing the above post i really thought that i've seen the values between 5 and 10 without improved haste, but i was imagining things.

with this in mind it becomes apparent that this is a bug in iwd:ee - no ratonal explanation for the cutoff at the value of 5

works fine in bg2:ee because there you can't go over 5 anyway because there's no way to do it without improved haste.

...actually just remembered there is with the gauntlets of extr.spec.

1 base + 1 fighter levels + 0.5 specialization + 0.5 grandmastery + 2 weapon bonuses + 0.5 gauntlets = 5.5 apr

wow this sort of a glaring bug

Avenger_teambg

I don't think we are supposed to nerf items found in the original game. It would be probably reconsidered if we restored something overly unbalanced, but original stuff we are not supposed to remove unless it is unfixably buggy. Is it really such a problem to find the second sword in the last 5% of the game?

bob_veng

@Avenger_teambg
i found both in a very short space of time in the middle of the game. i went to HoW when i was level 9.

it's a serious problem for me, really

bg2 and tob doesn't have this problem because +1 apr weapons aren't good for the main hand

RAM021

Avenger_teambg said:

Is it really such a problem to find the second sword in the last 5% of the game?

No it is not, but it is also clear he does not really know what he is talking about either... so no biggie

Ramza

The only issue here is that without using a +APR item you can gain a theoretical 11/2 APR which isn't implemented. But only in darts. and only if you're a 13th level fighter.

In the case of the weapons, being unable to exceed 5 APR is fine, because you can give the weapon/item to someone else who will benefit from it. In that very specific example given above, the extra 1/2 APR grand mastery is giving is actually denying someone from having as many APR as they should.

edit:

This is without pointing out that a guy dual wielding two +APR swords getting as much as 6.5 attacks in 6 seconds is borderline crazy. I know we're talking about a D&D game here, but if I may bring reality into this for a second, whens the last time you saw a guy do anything at a rate of once per second ad infinitum?

Abel

I don't think low level parties are supposed to go there. And if you do, well you should accept the fact that you'll find powerful items.
Also like Avenger, I don't think it's wise to start talking about nerfing the game. It's actually the exact opposite that happened with this EE. If you think about what the BG2 contents brought in, you realise that one or several Longswords of Action won't make much of a difference. There are even more ways to cheese the game, so it just doesn't matter.