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Gran Mastery and Dual in ICW:ee

So, I didn't realize this in my 1st run but this is how it works with fighters>whatever dual:

You can go up to GM AFTER you have regained the fighter lvls.


This mean that, if you want to dual for 2/apr at lvl 7, you can achieve GM at the following:

Fighter7(64k)>Cleric8(110k)/Dudu8(60k)/thief8(70k): All very fast since you gain a pip at lvl 8 with those classes to achieve GM

Fighter7(64k)>Mage12(750k): This honestly require forever to achieve GM vs the Fighter 9(250k)/Mage10(250k) BUT you regain levels much much faster!


So, since you can have GM at ANY point after the dual I guess the best way go is to dual at 7, while dualing at 9 is still optimal for Kensai or if you want to have better hp/saves.


Also, this make Dualing a lot less painfull couz you can dual one party member at 7 and one at 9 to make the team better since they will have different downtime and babysitting ;)
JuliusBorisovPibarojackjack
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Comments

  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    Imo since the Kensai is gaining his bonuses every 3 levels, a dual at 9th level is a waste. If you want an early dual, pick the Berserker kit. I wouldn't dual a Kensai before the level 13 minimum. I know this isn't *exactly* the point of your thread but I still wanted to include some additional feedback.
    DreadKhanJuliusBorisov
  • B4nJ0B4nJ0 Member Posts: 93
    The point of the trade wasn't the extra half atk of lvl 13 vs lvl 7 as you wrote already ;)

    By the way there is no optimal definition of when and where to dual since downtime matters on this point. Even in Hof if you go for a 6 party members lvl 13 dual will require forever to regain IMO.
    Goturaljackjack
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    That's totally true. And that's why I think that in general Kensais aren't really good in IWD. It's better to pick a Berserker. (Except if you plan a hardcore 29Kensai=>30Mage with multiple imports / exports )
    RAM021
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    Gotural said:

    Imo since the Kensai is gaining his bonuses every 3 levels, a dual at 9th level is a waste. If you want an early dual, pick the Berserker kit. I wouldn't dual a Kensai before the level 13 minimum. I know this isn't *exactly* the point of your thread but I still wanted to include some additional feedback.

    why is 9 a waste? Does he get his kensai bonuses at Lvl 10 or something?

  • B4nJ0B4nJ0 Member Posts: 93
    edited November 2014
    No, and it's not a waste. 9kensai It's the sweet spot to dual into if you are doing a 6man party in HoF for example.

    Duals at 13 require small parties even in bg2 (and for small I mean 2, max 3 ppl) where u can abuse quest exp and go in duo for some time to regain the lvls. Other dual lvls are almost impossible to do unless you import characters in and out and that's, for me, is too much cheese to enjoy.

    Kensai 9 give you another +1dmg/+1thaco, better saves and hp over kensai 6 and since lvl 7 is required for the extra half/atk you should just go for lvl 9 over 7. The math are different for the bers since GM is not a difference so you can dual at 7.

    For example I play full modded in bg2 with 4 men parties usually and I would not recommand dual at 13 ever to be honest, the downtime it's too hard to overcome due to the difficult of insane modded runs.

    Btw back to the topic ;)


  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229


    why is 9 a waste? Does he get his kensai bonuses at Lvl 10 or something?

    No it's just that a Kensai gains his bonuses every 3 levels, so the latter you dual, the better it becomes. At low levels (until 13th Imo) the Kensai is just a gimped Berserker.

    Anyway back on topic it's a pretty cool trick to know, and it also works like that in Baldur's Gate.

    Here is a cool build for the first Baldur's Gate game :

    If you play a Fighter, you'll end at level 8 without GM.
    If you play a Druid, you'll end at level 10 with 5th level spells.
    Now if you play a Fighter 7, then dual to Druid, you will actually be able to reach level 9 Druid, you will still be able to cast 5th level spells, but you will also have GM in your weapon of choice ! Which means you will become a better Fighter than a singleclass Fighter
    A Berserker 7 > Druid 9 with GM and Ironskin can totally kick Sarevok's a** :D
    RAM021smeagolheartjackjackJuliusBorisov
  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 894
    I'm lost. Why does the recommended level to dual class change when discussing Kensai vs. Berserker?
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Berserkers front load their abilities very heavily, Kensai suck in comparison early. Lvl 13 isnt a tough dual in BG2 for a full party. A mage 4 or 5 levels behind is hardly a burden. Enjoy the change of pace!

    I'd do Kensai 27 / Mage though, way quicker! Also, maxed bonus for dualed. ;)

    Iirc, in vanilla not having this resulted in some pointless pips for my F/T dual. He required some grinding, but IWD has some sweet xp farms. My favourite was Cold Wights. Is this a good change though? Maybe not, its not pnp iirc.

    Berserker can dual out very low quite effectively to Cleric, but thief might be low on THAC0 for frontline duty.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    It depends, really. Since I never use HoF, it's pointless for me to dual late. And yes, kensais aren't particularly good in IWD. Which is why you should play one, to make the game more challanging on core rules, rather than playing in HoF mode, which is a dumb cludge.
  • Ancalagon44Ancalagon44 Member Posts: 252
    Klorox said:

    I'm lost. Why does the recommended level to dual class change when discussing Kensai vs. Berserker?

    Berserkers get almost all of their bonuses early on, while kensais get their bonuses more slowly. So, if you dual at 9, some believe you will not be getting the most out of your kensai, and should have instead taken a berserker.

    Alternatively, if you dual at 13, you are getting the most out of your kensai, but then it takes a while to regain your kensai abilities.
    JuliusBorisov
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    edited November 2014
    The reason you can dual a Kensai fairly early in BG is that you basically just get a fighter with some free damage bonuses, because regardless of whether you dual to Thief or Mage, you'll essentially eliminate the Kensai disadvantages completely.

    In IWD, it's not that simple. It's much much harder to get to UAI as a K->T, or to get all the right spells as a K->M. That means you're forced to find some other balance of the advantages/disadvantages, and one possibly way to go is to get more of the bonuses by dualing later.

    That being said, I still believe that a 13 dual is *not* worth it, for either Kensai or Berserker. The main bonus you get is the +1/2 APR - but that doesn't even matter in the end, because of the extra 1/2 APR from GM in IWD. Think about it: a 7+ fighter has 3/2 APR; dual-wielding gets you to 5/2 APR; GM on top of that is 4 APR. That means that with a single +1 APR weapon, you're already at the 5 APR cap. If you had an extra 1/2 APR from dualing at 13, that would essentially be wasted completely - unless you forego the +APR weapon, in which case you end up at 9/2 APR, i.e. 1/2 APR *below* the 7+ dual, again negating the advantage of the higher level dual.

    As for 7 vs. 9, *that* I believe *is* worth it. You get all fighter hit dice, better THAC0, an extra proficiency pip (= GM), and an extra use of the kit ability - for a comparatively low cost, since 9 is the last level in the low XP brackets (1-9 = 250k XP; 9-10 = 250k XP also, as is every level from then on). It really is all about cost/benefit, and I strongly believe that 9 is the best value for dualing out of a fighter.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    edited November 2014
    Fardragon said:

    It's very very very hard to get to UAI in IWDEE. Because HLAs aren't in.

    Depends on what you mean by "in". They are definitely in the game files...

    Unless my BG2Tweaks added them in? Don't see why it would, though.

    I see your point though, if they're in the files but not available to pick it's sort of the same thing, barring mods :P Doesn't change much of my argument anyway.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Dualing at 9th out of fighter is silly. Your THAC0 will end up as the 2nd class, your saves will be overridden, took longer to regain abilities than 7th... but you got an extra 10 hp! Woo.

    Dualing at 13th in non HoF likely means grinding a bit. If you're comfortable with this, great, if not, dual at 7.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    So 13th is out, which is it, 9 or 7 for dualing?

    @DreadKhan says 7, @Lord_Tansheron says 9.

    What's the correct answer?
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    13th is fine, but you might want to plan a bit. Grinding works really quickly.

    Do it at 7th though if you're not concerned about relying on an apr weapon. There are 100% for sure non +apr weapons that are very, very powerful. Enough to make up 1/2 less apr? I'd say.

    Don't dual everyone at the same time, having more than 1 character dualed out at a time isn't fun.
  • GrabtharsHammerGrabtharsHammer Member Posts: 27
    Gotural said:

    Imo since the Kensai is gaining his bonuses every 3 levels, a dual at 9th level is a waste. If you want an early dual, pick the Berserker kit. I wouldn't dual a Kensai before the level 13 minimum. I know this isn't *exactly* the point of your thread but I still wanted to include some additional feedback.

    My thoughts as well :)

    I will dual my Kensai higher (as high as I can) into thief (a pure glass, sneak attack, cannon).

    My tank is a a Wizard Slayer (planned dual) to cleric... although my first thought was berserker (same general idea).

    I will get a harder hitting Cleric (more APR and THACO) that can take down the Arcane.


    My plan (in progress) is looping early quests (export.. start new... import); so grind first then play through with a smaller, more specialized team.

    I will probably stop the loop as soon as I dual my kensai and Wizard slayer (minimum 13, maybe more). My Monk should be more useful by then, as well as my Dragon Disciple sorceress; 4 in all.

    note: I have completely forgotten this game, so this a treat!
    Not using the console, EE keeper, or guides (other than general planning), makes it more enjoyable for me.

  • B4nJ0B4nJ0 Member Posts: 93
    edited November 2014
    For me importing is cheese and boring as hell, you will end with overpowered characters while negating all the problems of a 13lvl+ dual class. Just hit the cluaconsole and add exp since it's really the same thing but faster In Real Life. At least It's how I see it but anyone is free to enjoy the game in her own way ;)

    IF you are not into the import/export thing and you want to dual in HoF I strongly suggest:

    Fighters kit at 7. Exception kensai at 9 is way better. Option B any fighter kit at 9 if you want the extra hp and +1pip plus better saves.

    Any thief at 7 for evasion and disarm/find traps. You can still dual at 6 and skip evasion, up to you but doesn't matter at all in the end ;)


    GrabtharsHammer
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    The question is one of opportunity cost. While you don't gain a LOT from 7 to 9, you gain it at a fairly low cost because you're still moving in low XP brackets. And for that cost, an extra prof pip, and extra use of the kit ability, max hit dice and some THAC0 improvement is worth it - not because it's amazing things you gain, but because you gain them very cheaply.

    Dualing at 13 is pointless in IWD because GM adds 3/2 APR there (BG = +1 APR only), making the 1/2 APR you gain at 13 superfluous (lvl 9 fighter: 3/2 APR + 3/2 APR GM = 3, +1 dual wield = 4, +1 APR offhand of Action = 5 max).

    For thieves, I can definitely see 7 over 6 for much the same reason, you get Evasion very cheaply. Personally I still dual at 6 though because Evasion just does basically nothing whatsoever if you play right (i.e. interrupt casters, which is stupidly easy to do in IWD). If you struggle with that, by all means go for 7 it really is very easy to do.
    bob_veng
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    You are aware there are very strong non APR weapons, right? If you deal more damage on each hit, 1/2 less swings can favour the 13th lvl dual pretty strongly.

    Some parties (ie tunning a swashie or blade, or low level dualed fighters) might have other characters needing the apr gear more. I loved using Blood Iron for example, and the auto heal is pretty huge. A GM 13th lvl F to T can come out of very challenging fights unscathed, especially with a strong DR weapon offhand and DR gear.

    I think we can agree though that dualing at 13 will be tedius (probably grinding), and staggering your dual classes will likely save your sanity. Also, when you dual should involve thinking about your kit benefits.
    RAM021
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511

    So 13th is out, which is it, 9 or 7 for dualing?

    @DreadKhan says 7, @Lord_Tansheron says 9.

    What's the correct answer?

    If you are playing a standard difficulty, six character game, then 7.

    If you are in HoF, or have a smaller party, and your base class in kensai (or wizard slayer or ranger) 9 or 13.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    DreadKhan said:

    You are aware there are very strong non APR weapons, right? If you deal more damage on each hit, 1/2 less swings can favour the 13th lvl dual pretty strongly.

    Better offhands than +APR? Could you give an example, I'm not too familiar with all the new items yet.
    DreadKhan said:

    Some parties (ie tunning a swashie or blade, or low level dualed fighters) might have other characters needing the apr gear more.

    This is a completely valid point. If your party has specific demands, keep those in mind.

    That being said though, there is a lot of +APR around in IWD so it's not all that likely that you'll run out. Plus, one of those +APR items is in fact a RING that can only be used by thieves anyway, making the 13 dual still waste APR while not taking away items from other party members.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Iirc, you can expect to find 3 or 4 items in a run, maybe a couple more if you're pretty lucky, so a Blade or swashie will use up a significant amount, though not many would want a blade and swashie in the same party! But some might have one and a low level dual out of fighter, ie 3rd to mage or druid.

    Well, imho, if you try using a really strong single hander like Blood Iron in your main hand, and already have 4.5 apr, you can use a synergystic offhand, ie Blood Iron and a damage reducer weapon. Very tough tank, the ability to heal +10 damage per round combined with decent DR (slashing is easiest, but other types should be decent enough. Therewas a really awesome defending Warhammer iirc) will make you tough to kill. With evasion, you can try dropping some spells to weaken enemies further. Dual to mages and clerics might want to use Sanctified or Mage Daggers.

    I agree though, there is definately a strong argument for a 7th lvl dual and an apr weapon for your damage dealer.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    edited November 2014
    @DreadKhan‌ Keep in mind that we're talking about dual class here, which means you don't need "a significant amount" of APR items for your dual - you need ONE, and that could be the ring that only thieves can use anyway (in case of a F/T dual combo), meaning you do not even necessarily have to actually lose anything.

    As for your example, I can't really see the appeal of Blood Iron. Healing is alright I suppose, but I don't want my F/T to be the tank, do I? There's not exactly a whole lot of incidental damage in IWD, and even what there is can be dealt with easily. I would very much rather have a damage weapon than a healing one, and then further augment it by having more APR. Not to mention that short swords have piercing damage, which is easily the most resisted damage type.

    I strongly believe that a high-damage 1h coupled with a supportive OH (+1 APR or other useful effects like the +1 luck scimitar or whatever else there is that I can't remember) at max APR is better than having a different combination at 4.5 APR.

    As you rightly said, this is talking about the damage dealer. For tanks, other considerations do play a role and other factors come into play - which still don't change my opinion. Arguably the best fighter-dual tank is the Berserker->Cleric, which you absolutely will NOT want to dual at 13 simply because you need the divine spells earlier. You could make an argument for the 7 dual here to be sure, and I wouldn't fault anyone for choosing it. Personally, I like the extra HP (even if it's just 10 or whatever) and the other minor bonuses for the fairly low cost when dualing at 9, but this is probably one of the closer calls.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    The beauty imo of Blood Iron on a F to T is that you open with a backstab, and just use the evasive F T as a target for supporting fireballs, or bring in a couple Kensai with a Skald (and Vanilla Bard for DR) and swamp the distracted enemies. They will have a heck of a time killing you F T this way, and you also have him almost guaranteed to be targeted by everyone and their dog, as he'll be the only target. Can you evade Skull Traps?

    In IWD I always found slashing the worst damage type. So. Damn. Many. Skeletons. You can always switch to the Giving Star, or another hammer if your best DR option is a hammer.

    I think after I am more familiar with what has been added/adjusted this discussion will be better, but I'd rather have the best 1h and an offhand weapon to make you more durable.

    C to F isnt as good in IWD as it was in BG2 at tanking imo... a F to T using Bloodiron, with Regenerate cast and DRing offhand will not be dropping very easily. Its arguably BETTER, due to evasion, but that could be opinion.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    DreadKhan said:

    C to F isnt as good in IWD as it was in BG2 at tanking imo... a F to T using Bloodiron, with Regenerate cast and DRing offhand will not be dropping very easily. Its arguably BETTER, due to evasion, but that could be opinion.

    Not talking about C to F, talking about F to C (Berserker 9 -> Cleric). Where do you see Evasion kicking in? Enemy casters never get casts off unless you let them (it's absolutely trivial to keep them interrupted in IWD), and spell damage doesn't scale well enough into HoF to be using AoE damage spells of your own. I literally do not remember a single situation in my first HoF run that Evasion would have come into play in. Also, tanking in IWD is all about not getting hit, THAC0 scaling isn't out of control like it is in ToB so you can actually avoid the vast majority of hits with proper gear/buffs. Using a F/T combo for that seems very inefficient.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857

    DreadKhan said:

    C to F isnt as good in IWD as it was in BG2 at tanking imo... a F to T using Bloodiron, with Regenerate cast and DRing offhand will not be dropping very easily. Its arguably BETTER, due to evasion, but that could be opinion.

    Not talking about C to F, talking about F to C (Berserker 9 -> Cleric). Where do you see Evasion kicking in? Enemy casters never get casts off unless you let them (it's absolutely trivial to keep them interrupted in IWD), and spell damage doesn't scale well enough into HoF to be using AoE damage spells of your own. I literally do not remember a single situation in my first HoF run that Evasion would have come into play in. Also, tanking in IWD is all about not getting hit, THAC0 scaling isn't out of control like it is in ToB so you can actually avoid the vast majority of hits with proper gear/buffs. Using a F/T combo for that seems very inefficient.
    You may prefer getting hit less, but I also like making enemy hits less effective. 5% is the hard minimum, and I am suggesting this character can actually get surrounded.

    If you think AoE damage is useless, try dumping 4 or 5 skull traps at once. Or 5 Horrid Wiltings. Yes, using 1 caster won't cut it, but stacking up on spells is still pretty effective. Might need to rest a bit more, but cleaning out the bigger swarms this way isn't that bad. Its like Web in ToB. Having a chsracter to hold a pile of enemies while you drop all hell on them works out nicely in my experience. Less so in HoF I admit, but it can work.

    Okay, Ber to C makes more sense, I must have misread. Regardless though, Clerics sre better at offense buffing imho, wizards by far at defensive. Ber to M would be a much sturdier tank, if you don't want Evasion.

    I think we're going a bit off topic though.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    DreadKhan said:

    Less so in HoF I admit, but it can work.

    That is of course the crux of the matter. It's not about what's POSSIBLE, it's about what's efficient. Of course you can make various things work, somehow. You can have your single class unkitted mage tank, if you really want to - but the thing is that something else would be BETTER. Of course, in the end what you do choose depends on your own, personal preferences. And that's totally fine, but I think the discussion of what is more or less efficient still has merit for people that want to be informed before they make that own, personal choice.
    DreadKhan said:

    Okay, Ber to C makes more sense, I must have misread. Regardless though, Clerics sre better at offense buffing imho, wizards by far at defensive.

    Could you elaborate on that? What defensive Mage buffs are there that make them better "by far" than Clerics? Is Stoneskin better than Shield of Entropy in a game where you face extraordinarily large amounts of enemies, meaning you get hit a lot, meaning skin charges get consumed quickly? Are Protection from Normal/Magical Weapons with their short duration that good in HoF where fights take a long time to finish? Seems questionable to me, to be honest.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    edited November 2014
    DreadKhan said:

    You are aware there are very strong non APR weapons, right? If you deal more damage on each hit, 1/2 less swings can favour the 13th lvl dual pretty strongly.

    Some parties (ie tunning a swashie or blade, or low level dualed fighters) might have other characters needing the apr gear more. I loved using Blood Iron for example, and the auto heal is pretty huge. A GM 13th lvl F to T can come out of very challenging fights unscathed, especially with a strong DR weapon offhand and DR gear.

    I think we can agree though that dualing at 13 will be tedius (probably grinding), and staggering your dual classes will likely save your sanity. Also, when you dual should involve thinking about your kit benefits.

    none stronger than the longsword of action +4 which also gives +15% slashing resist and +1 ac

    edit: yes, dualling a kensai at level 7 is very good

  • RAM021RAM021 Member Posts: 403
    bob_veng said:

    none stronger than the longsword of action +4 which also gives +15% slashing resist and +1 ac

    edit: yes, dualling a kensai at level 7 is very good

    The Action Longsword is arguably the best Action Wpn, but it is not the best Longsword...

    Kensai is a very poor level7 dual.
    JuliusBorisov
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