Gran Mastery and Dual in ICW:ee
So, I didn't realize this in my 1st run but this is how it works with fighters>whatever dual:
You can go up to GM AFTER you have regained the fighter lvls.
This mean that, if you want to dual for 2/apr at lvl 7, you can achieve GM at the following:
Fighter7(64k)>Cleric8(110k)/Dudu8(60k)/thief8(70k): All very fast since you gain a pip at lvl 8 with those classes to achieve GM
Fighter7(64k)>Mage12(750k): This honestly require forever to achieve GM vs the Fighter 9(250k)/Mage10(250k) BUT you regain levels much much faster!
So, since you can have GM at ANY point after the dual I guess the best way go is to dual at 7, while dualing at 9 is still optimal for Kensai or if you want to have better hp/saves.
Also, this make Dualing a lot less painfull couz you can dual one party member at 7 and one at 9 to make the team better since they will have different downtime and babysitting
You can go up to GM AFTER you have regained the fighter lvls.
This mean that, if you want to dual for 2/apr at lvl 7, you can achieve GM at the following:
Fighter7(64k)>Cleric8(110k)/Dudu8(60k)/thief8(70k): All very fast since you gain a pip at lvl 8 with those classes to achieve GM
Fighter7(64k)>Mage12(750k): This honestly require forever to achieve GM vs the Fighter 9(250k)/Mage10(250k) BUT you regain levels much much faster!
So, since you can have GM at ANY point after the dual I guess the best way go is to dual at 7, while dualing at 9 is still optimal for Kensai or if you want to have better hp/saves.
Also, this make Dualing a lot less painfull couz you can dual one party member at 7 and one at 9 to make the team better since they will have different downtime and babysitting
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Comments
By the way there is no optimal definition of when and where to dual since downtime matters on this point. Even in Hof if you go for a 6 party members lvl 13 dual will require forever to regain IMO.
Duals at 13 require small parties even in bg2 (and for small I mean 2, max 3 ppl) where u can abuse quest exp and go in duo for some time to regain the lvls. Other dual lvls are almost impossible to do unless you import characters in and out and that's, for me, is too much cheese to enjoy.
Kensai 9 give you another +1dmg/+1thaco, better saves and hp over kensai 6 and since lvl 7 is required for the extra half/atk you should just go for lvl 9 over 7. The math are different for the bers since GM is not a difference so you can dual at 7.
For example I play full modded in bg2 with 4 men parties usually and I would not recommand dual at 13 ever to be honest, the downtime it's too hard to overcome due to the difficult of insane modded runs.
Btw back to the topic
Anyway back on topic it's a pretty cool trick to know, and it also works like that in Baldur's Gate.
Here is a cool build for the first Baldur's Gate game :
If you play a Fighter, you'll end at level 8 without GM.
If you play a Druid, you'll end at level 10 with 5th level spells.
Now if you play a Fighter 7, then dual to Druid, you will actually be able to reach level 9 Druid, you will still be able to cast 5th level spells, but you will also have GM in your weapon of choice ! Which means you will become a better Fighter than a singleclass Fighter
A Berserker 7 > Druid 9 with GM and Ironskin can totally kick Sarevok's a**
I'd do Kensai 27 / Mage though, way quicker! Also, maxed bonus for dualed.
Iirc, in vanilla not having this resulted in some pointless pips for my F/T dual. He required some grinding, but IWD has some sweet xp farms. My favourite was Cold Wights. Is this a good change though? Maybe not, its not pnp iirc.
Berserker can dual out very low quite effectively to Cleric, but thief might be low on THAC0 for frontline duty.
Alternatively, if you dual at 13, you are getting the most out of your kensai, but then it takes a while to regain your kensai abilities.
In IWD, it's not that simple. It's much much harder to get to UAI as a K->T, or to get all the right spells as a K->M. That means you're forced to find some other balance of the advantages/disadvantages, and one possibly way to go is to get more of the bonuses by dualing later.
That being said, I still believe that a 13 dual is *not* worth it, for either Kensai or Berserker. The main bonus you get is the +1/2 APR - but that doesn't even matter in the end, because of the extra 1/2 APR from GM in IWD. Think about it: a 7+ fighter has 3/2 APR; dual-wielding gets you to 5/2 APR; GM on top of that is 4 APR. That means that with a single +1 APR weapon, you're already at the 5 APR cap. If you had an extra 1/2 APR from dualing at 13, that would essentially be wasted completely - unless you forego the +APR weapon, in which case you end up at 9/2 APR, i.e. 1/2 APR *below* the 7+ dual, again negating the advantage of the higher level dual.
As for 7 vs. 9, *that* I believe *is* worth it. You get all fighter hit dice, better THAC0, an extra proficiency pip (= GM), and an extra use of the kit ability - for a comparatively low cost, since 9 is the last level in the low XP brackets (1-9 = 250k XP; 9-10 = 250k XP also, as is every level from then on). It really is all about cost/benefit, and I strongly believe that 9 is the best value for dualing out of a fighter.
Unless my BG2Tweaks added them in? Don't see why it would, though.
I see your point though, if they're in the files but not available to pick it's sort of the same thing, barring mods :P Doesn't change much of my argument anyway.
Dualing at 13th in non HoF likely means grinding a bit. If you're comfortable with this, great, if not, dual at 7.
@DreadKhan says 7, @Lord_Tansheron says 9.
What's the correct answer?
Do it at 7th though if you're not concerned about relying on an apr weapon. There are 100% for sure non +apr weapons that are very, very powerful. Enough to make up 1/2 less apr? I'd say.
Don't dual everyone at the same time, having more than 1 character dualed out at a time isn't fun.
I will dual my Kensai higher (as high as I can) into thief (a pure glass, sneak attack, cannon).
My tank is a a Wizard Slayer (planned dual) to cleric... although my first thought was berserker (same general idea).
I will get a harder hitting Cleric (more APR and THACO) that can take down the Arcane.
My plan (in progress) is looping early quests (export.. start new... import); so grind first then play through with a smaller, more specialized team.
I will probably stop the loop as soon as I dual my kensai and Wizard slayer (minimum 13, maybe more). My Monk should be more useful by then, as well as my Dragon Disciple sorceress; 4 in all.
note: I have completely forgotten this game, so this a treat!
Not using the console, EE keeper, or guides (other than general planning), makes it more enjoyable for me.
IF you are not into the import/export thing and you want to dual in HoF I strongly suggest:
Fighters kit at 7. Exception kensai at 9 is way better. Option B any fighter kit at 9 if you want the extra hp and +1pip plus better saves.
Any thief at 7 for evasion and disarm/find traps. You can still dual at 6 and skip evasion, up to you but doesn't matter at all in the end
Dualing at 13 is pointless in IWD because GM adds 3/2 APR there (BG = +1 APR only), making the 1/2 APR you gain at 13 superfluous (lvl 9 fighter: 3/2 APR + 3/2 APR GM = 3, +1 dual wield = 4, +1 APR offhand of Action = 5 max).
For thieves, I can definitely see 7 over 6 for much the same reason, you get Evasion very cheaply. Personally I still dual at 6 though because Evasion just does basically nothing whatsoever if you play right (i.e. interrupt casters, which is stupidly easy to do in IWD). If you struggle with that, by all means go for 7 it really is very easy to do.
Some parties (ie tunning a swashie or blade, or low level dualed fighters) might have other characters needing the apr gear more. I loved using Blood Iron for example, and the auto heal is pretty huge. A GM 13th lvl F to T can come out of very challenging fights unscathed, especially with a strong DR weapon offhand and DR gear.
I think we can agree though that dualing at 13 will be tedius (probably grinding), and staggering your dual classes will likely save your sanity. Also, when you dual should involve thinking about your kit benefits.
If you are in HoF, or have a smaller party, and your base class in kensai (or wizard slayer or ranger) 9 or 13.
That being said though, there is a lot of +APR around in IWD so it's not all that likely that you'll run out. Plus, one of those +APR items is in fact a RING that can only be used by thieves anyway, making the 13 dual still waste APR while not taking away items from other party members.
Well, imho, if you try using a really strong single hander like Blood Iron in your main hand, and already have 4.5 apr, you can use a synergystic offhand, ie Blood Iron and a damage reducer weapon. Very tough tank, the ability to heal +10 damage per round combined with decent DR (slashing is easiest, but other types should be decent enough. Therewas a really awesome defending Warhammer iirc) will make you tough to kill. With evasion, you can try dropping some spells to weaken enemies further. Dual to mages and clerics might want to use Sanctified or Mage Daggers.
I agree though, there is definately a strong argument for a 7th lvl dual and an apr weapon for your damage dealer.
As for your example, I can't really see the appeal of Blood Iron. Healing is alright I suppose, but I don't want my F/T to be the tank, do I? There's not exactly a whole lot of incidental damage in IWD, and even what there is can be dealt with easily. I would very much rather have a damage weapon than a healing one, and then further augment it by having more APR. Not to mention that short swords have piercing damage, which is easily the most resisted damage type.
I strongly believe that a high-damage 1h coupled with a supportive OH (+1 APR or other useful effects like the +1 luck scimitar or whatever else there is that I can't remember) at max APR is better than having a different combination at 4.5 APR.
As you rightly said, this is talking about the damage dealer. For tanks, other considerations do play a role and other factors come into play - which still don't change my opinion. Arguably the best fighter-dual tank is the Berserker->Cleric, which you absolutely will NOT want to dual at 13 simply because you need the divine spells earlier. You could make an argument for the 7 dual here to be sure, and I wouldn't fault anyone for choosing it. Personally, I like the extra HP (even if it's just 10 or whatever) and the other minor bonuses for the fairly low cost when dualing at 9, but this is probably one of the closer calls.
In IWD I always found slashing the worst damage type. So. Damn. Many. Skeletons. You can always switch to the Giving Star, or another hammer if your best DR option is a hammer.
I think after I am more familiar with what has been added/adjusted this discussion will be better, but I'd rather have the best 1h and an offhand weapon to make you more durable.
C to F isnt as good in IWD as it was in BG2 at tanking imo... a F to T using Bloodiron, with Regenerate cast and DRing offhand will not be dropping very easily. Its arguably BETTER, due to evasion, but that could be opinion.
If you think AoE damage is useless, try dumping 4 or 5 skull traps at once. Or 5 Horrid Wiltings. Yes, using 1 caster won't cut it, but stacking up on spells is still pretty effective. Might need to rest a bit more, but cleaning out the bigger swarms this way isn't that bad. Its like Web in ToB. Having a chsracter to hold a pile of enemies while you drop all hell on them works out nicely in my experience. Less so in HoF I admit, but it can work.
Okay, Ber to C makes more sense, I must have misread. Regardless though, Clerics sre better at offense buffing imho, wizards by far at defensive. Ber to M would be a much sturdier tank, if you don't want Evasion.
I think we're going a bit off topic though.
edit: yes, dualling a kensai at level 7 is very good
Kensai is a very poor level7 dual.