Question about Dual-Classing

Lewis244

Ok, confession time; I've never dual-classed before. This may have o do with the fact that I've never been a fan of playing boring old humans. But I've currently got a bard at level 11, and was wondering if I were to dual class him to something else when he reaches level 12, will he still be able to use his bard abilities? Or would I be wasting my time?

Belanos

Lewis244 said:

Or would I be wasting my time?

Yes you would. Bards can't dual-class. From the manual:

"Characters not allowed dual-class status include Bards, Paladins, Sorcerers, Monks, and Barbarians."

Grammarsalad

You can't dual a bard, unfortunately. You can only dual a class combo that can be a multi class.

But when you do dual,you lose your original class abilities until you reach in your second class one level higher than you were in your first class when you dualed.

So f you could dual your bard at 12th level, you would lose your bard abilities until you reach 13th level in your second class

Wowo

Grammarsalad said:

You can't dual a bard, unfortunately. You can only dual a class combo that can be a multi class.

But when you do dual,you lose your original class abilities until you reach in your second class one level higher than you were in your first class when you dualed.

So f you could dual your bard at 12th level, you would lose your bard abilities until you reach 13th level in your second class

The trick is of course that each level takes exponentially more experience than the last so if you dual from level 1 to 9 you'll usually catch up in the time it takes for your other characters to get 1 or, at most, 2 levels of experience.

It is amazing how fast things die when 4+ characters in your party have grandmastery in their mainhand weapon and improved haste.

jimmysdabestcop

Dual class ability is very important especially if you are playing HOF mode. You probably will want between 2-3 Dual Class characters.

I kind of throw out most RP flavor when in HOf mode.

If you multi class divine spell casters even in HOF I just feel they dont get to high level spells in large numbers quick enough. And you dualing a Fighter over to Druid/Cleric after level 7 or 9 is extremely easy. By end game they wont even be behind any other characters levels.

Dualing out of a Thief Class is pretty easy as well.

Fardragon

Which is why HoF is an abomination. If you don't want RP flavour, why play an RPG?! You might as well play Tetris or Candy Crush saga.

moody_mage

Fardragon said:

Which is why HoF is an abomination. If you don't want RP flavour, why play an RPG?! You might as well play Tetris or Candy Crush saga.

Disagree. It's a single player game so your actions have no consequence on anyone else, play however makes you happy.

Wowo

Fardragon said:

Which is why HoF is an abomination. If you don't want RP flavour, why play an RPG?! You might as well play Tetris or Candy Crush saga.

I guess better to play in story mode, right?

jimmysdabestcop

I think the HOF option gives you the chance to play the same game multiple times with complete different play throughs.

Since IWD is more a dungeon crawl then anything else.

HOF doesn't take anything away from the game only adds to it.

Lord_Tansheron

Wowo said:

The trick is of course that each level takes exponentially more experience than the last so if you dual from level 1 to 9 you'll usually catch up in the time it takes for your other characters to get 1 or, at most, 2 levels of experience.

Would just like to correct this a bit. Experience required per level does increase at first, but then it stops (usually around lvl 10 or so, depending on class). After it stops, each subsequent level requires the SAME amount of experience (varies by class).

In the case of the Bard, for example, you need increasing amounts of experience until you reach lvl 11. After lvl 11, EVERY new level needs the same amount of experience, 220,000.

What @Wowo said is correct however in that early levels ultimately take so little experience that you'll catch up to them VERY quickly. It's entirely possible to have one character dual at say lvl 6 and another character of the same class not dual - and by the time the dual reaches lvl 7 in their NEW class, the other character (that did not dual) will STILL be level 7 (though further ahead on the way to 8) [numbers only illustrative examples, though not that far off].

Since experience progression doesn't reach high values until around lvl 10 (see above), it's usually very easy to dual at these levels. Consequently, since experience does get a bit steep from lvl 10 on, it is usually much more difficult to dual characters at higher levels (though by no means impossible or entirely unfeasible). Dual-classing is a fairly complicated mechanic though, so don't worry if it all seems a bit confusing at first.

Fardragon

decado said:

Fardragon said:

Which is why HoF is an abomination. If you don't want RP flavour, why play an RPG?! You might as well play Tetris or Candy Crush saga.

Disagree. It's a single player game so your actions have no consequence on anyone else, play however makes you happy.

I'm not saying people shouldn't use it, I'm saying I, personally, can't understand the mentality that enables anyone to derive pleasure from it.

I've nothing against having a "hard" mode, the problem is having a hard mode that makes a mockery of the rule-set that the game is based upon. It was a rushed afterthought, a cop out that substitutes for an actual hard mode, with more powerful, smarter, more numerous enemies who preserve the feel of the PnP rules and the atmosphere of the setting.

Wowo

Lord_Tansheron said:

Wowo said:

The trick is of course that each level takes exponentially more experience than the last so if you dual from level 1 to 9 you'll usually catch up in the time it takes for your other characters to get 1 or, at most, 2 levels of experience.

Would just like to correct this a bit. Experience required per level does increase at first, but then it stops (usually around lvl 10 or so, depending on class). After it stops, each subsequent level requires the SAME amount of experience (varies by class).

In the case of the Bard, for example, you need increasing amounts of experience until you reach lvl 11. After lvl 11, EVERY new level needs the same amount of experience, 220,000.

What @Wowo said is correct however in that early levels ultimately take so little experience that you'll catch up to them VERY quickly. It's entirely possible to have one character dual at say lvl 6 and another character of the same class not dual - and by the time the dual reaches lvl 7 in their NEW class, the other character (that did not dual) will STILL be level 7 (though further ahead on the way to 8) [numbers only illustrative examples, though not that far off].

Since experience progression doesn't reach high values until around lvl 10 (see above), it's usually very easy to dual at these levels. Consequently, since experience does get a bit steep from lvl 10 on, it is usually much more difficult to dual characters at higher levels (though by no means impossible or entirely unfeasible). Dual-classing is a fairly complicated mechanic though, so don't worry if it all seems a bit confusing at first.

I'm sorry, you want to correct me but what I said is correct? I can't figure out if this is accidental or intentional trolling ...

Lord_Tansheron

@Fardragon: I doubt anyone disagrees, but it's a question of what's feasible. Judging from experience, AI on that scale has always been the purview of mods, not original development. Considering the amount of time and effort required, not to mention the modularity/customizability that usually comes with these mods, I think it unrealistic to expect such a mode from the original game. As such, having HoF is at least SOMETHING. It may not be the perfect solution, but it's miles better than not having it - not the lightyears better that a mod would make things, but at least something. There's always mods in such games that are on almost all counts strictly better than the original game, but there are simply very real constraints and effort/benefit concerns that make it unlikely for such changes to be included in the original as-is game.

We can only hope there actually will be a mod like SCS for IWD (which I am not tiring to suggest should be called Ten Towns Tactics and nothing else).

Lewis244

Ah I see. Thanks so much everyone! I've been playing these games for a couple years now and have never bothered to dual class anything so this was all new to me. It's a lot more clear now!

DreadKhan

Fardragon said:

Which is why HoF is an abomination. If you don't want RP flavour, why play an RPG?! You might as well play Tetris or Candy Crush saga.

'Aaarrrggghh! Kids are playing the single player game WRONG!!' Anyways...

Dualing effectively is very much a function of personal preference. If using a seperate skill set bothers you terribly (it bothers most people around here), try to dual at a low level (ie Berserker dual out at 7th). If it sounds interesting to try 'something new' for a bit, dual at higher levels (Kensai 13). If you're interested primarily in late game power, dual pretty late, but this is much more relevant to BG2 than IWD. A Cleric to Wizard dual would be a reasonable fit for this.

THAC0 is generally less key in IWD than ToB, so a kensai 13 to mage is more competetive. No HLAs too makes this a pretty scary melee build compared to the multi.

Lord_Tansheron

DreadKhan said:

THAC0 is generally less key in IWD than ToB, so a kensai 13 to mage is more competetive.

Actually it's LESS competitive, since THAC0 is one of the main benefits for 13>9 considering the plethora of +APR weapons and +3/2 APR GM (meaning the +1/2 APR from lvl 13 is wasted).

Fardragon

DreadKhan said:

Fardragon said:

Which is why HoF is an abomination. If you don't want RP flavour, why play an RPG?! You might as well play Tetris or Candy Crush saga.

'Aaarrrggghh! Kids are playing the single player game WRONG!!' Anyways...

Dualing effectively is very much a function of personal preference. If using a seperate skill set bothers you terribly (it bothers most people around here), try to dual at a low level (ie Berserker dual out at 7th). If it sounds interesting to try 'something new' for a bit, dual at higher levels (Kensai 13). If you're interested primarily in late game power, dual pretty late, but this is much more relevant to BG2 than IWD. A Cleric to Wizard dual would be a reasonable fit for this.

THAC0 is generally less key in IWD than ToB, so a kensai 13 to mage is more competetive. No HLAs too makes this a pretty scary melee build compared to the multi.

Dual class because your character decides to change career, not because it is the best way to leverage rules exploits.

DreadKhan

...which is why you use even a slightly better weapon to deal more damage, or use you buddy Cleric's Righteous Wrath to grant that extra 1/2 apr. You were always wrong on this. It doesn't take much +1s to damage to make 4.5 better than 5. Your only counter was ALWAYS 'but 14th lvl need so much XP that I won't find it fun!', which is entirely valid as an opinion, but not remotely objective.

For the record, if you can get +3 damage, there is no way you can hit hard enough to make 5 better than 4.5 mathematicly. Kensai using the Axe of the Minotaur Lord and a +5 Axe is better for damage dealing than one using a Longsword of Action to nab 1/2 an attack extra. We're talking Kensai Mage here remember. Cleric has much higher modifiers after several rounds prebuff to get 25 str, this build caps at 20 str iirc while DWing.

Maths:
Lvl 9
3 + 2 + 8 + (4.5+4) = 21.5 LSoA in offhand
3 + 5 + 8 + (6.5+4) = 26.5 Axe of Minotaur Lord, best Kensai weapon.
21.5 + 26.5 * 4 = 127.5 average

Lvl 13 with only 4.5 apr (which is easy to buff to 5)
4 + 5 + 8 + (4.5 + 5) = 26.5 Young Rage offhand
4 + 5 + 8 + (6.5 + 4) = 27.5 Axe of the Minotaur Lord
26.5 + 27.5 * 4.5 (or 5) = 150.25 (or 164 with 5 apr)

You can't get GM in 2 weapon types and 3 pips in TWF anywhere remotely useful, and other than the Longsword of Action, Longswords aren't spectacular after Dragon's Eye, especially as a Kai with AotML does base 16 damage. Which isn't getting topped.

Feel free to counter, you were profoundly unconvincing for Clerics, and clerics are an easier arguement as they can buff str more and have limited weapon choices.

DreadKhan

Well, my edit doesn't work on most pages, so 2nd post to make a correction:

21.5 + 26.5 * 5 = 154, or 10 less than the 13th lvl kensai with buffing.

Whether you consider it 'worthwhile' is utterly moot, just talking objective numbers.

FinneousPJ

@DreadKhan I'm not sure I understand your formula since you didn't explain anything, but you can't get 1 offhand + 4.5 main hand attacks or 1 offhand +4 main hand attacks. This is what it looks like you're saying. 4.5 attacks means 1 offhand +3.5 main hand attacks in this game.

BTW, his argument was never about fun. It's about the cost of dualing at a later time, which you never obviously understood. This is objective (it is an actual difference in XP requirements to gain abilities), though quantifying its meaning isn't easy.

DreadKhan

Nah, just hugely rushed. I don't actually have time to do this, and have no edit button.

If you want to disagree, just post numbers.

Lord_Tansheron

FinneousPJ said:

BTW, his argument was never about fun. It's about the cost of dualing at a later time, which you never obviously understood. This is objective (it is an actual difference in XP requirements to gain abilities), though quantifying its meaning isn't easy.

Oh laaaaawd welcome a neeeeeew brotherrrr to the follllddaaaaaaaahhhh!

Opportunity cost is the big, big, BIG keyword.

Wowo

DreadKhan said:

...which is why you use even a slightly better weapon to deal more damage, or use you buddy Cleric's Righteous Wrath to grant that extra 1/2 apr. You were always wrong on this. It doesn't take much +1s to damage to make 4.5 better than 5. Your only counter was ALWAYS 'but 14th lvl need so much XP that I won't find it fun!', which is entirely valid as an opinion, but not remotely objective.

For the record, if you can get +3 damage, there is no way you can hit hard enough to make 5 better than 4.5 mathematicly. Kensai using the Axe of the Minotaur Lord and a +5 Axe is better for damage dealing than one using a Longsword of Action to nab 1/2 an attack extra. We're talking Kensai Mage here remember. Cleric has much higher modifiers after several rounds prebuff to get 25 str, this build caps at 20 str iirc while DWing.

Maths:
Lvl 9
3 + 2 + 8 + (4.5+4) = 21.5 LSoA in offhand
3 + 5 + 8 + (6.5+4) = 26.5 Axe of Minotaur Lord, best Kensai weapon.
21.5 + 26.5 * 4 = 127.5 average

Lvl 13 with only 4.5 apr (which is easy to buff to 5)
4 + 5 + 8 + (4.5 + 5) = 26.5 Young Rage offhand
4 + 5 + 8 + (6.5 + 4) = 27.5 Axe of the Minotaur Lord
26.5 + 27.5 * 4.5 (or 5) = 150.25 (or 164 with 5 apr)

You can't get GM in 2 weapon types and 3 pips in TWF anywhere remotely useful, and other than the Longsword of Action, Longswords aren't spectacular after Dragon's Eye, especially as a Kai with AotML does base 16 damage. Which isn't getting topped.

Feel free to counter, you were profoundly unconvincing for Clerics, and clerics are an easier arguement as they can buff str more and have limited weapon choices.

Unhasted APR cap is 5 so need to adjust your numbers as follows:
9/x: 21.5+26.5*4= 127.5
13/x: 26.5+27.5*3.5= 122.75

The gap is quite small but APR will generally win. I've had similar thoughts myself and I'm quite happy with my 4.5 APR kensei 13/Mage as all of the best fast weapons are used already.

With charged battle axe +2 and incinerator +3 unbuffed she does:
25.25+24.5*3.5=111

If I swapped the Incinerator +3 for a bastard sword of action +1:
21+24.5*4=119

These numbers will have a larger gap once you add buffs like courage, hope, IH, RW, kai etc.

So, even though my kensage is off handing one of the best mainhand weapons in the game she is still better off mainhanding a +1 fast weapon if she can find it.

The other consideration is that stun procs in the above example be slightly higher with the inferior damage combination until she gets the axe of the Minotaur Lord with it's superior stun proc chance.

Finally, you can sometimes get important resistances or immunities on an offhand weapon so it is easier to consider equipping alternative weapons if you have the 4.5 base APR to drop down to rather than dropping to 4 if you feel you need a defender or something similar in the offhand.