Neutral characters and reputation system

kamuizin

Well, just passing to ask for a review in the NPC breaks.

Neutral NPCs leave the party if reputation reach 1. I'm asking (if possible) by mod or core change, to this feature to be:

1 - Removed.
2 - equalized, so Neutral NPCs would leave 20 rep parties also.
3 - balanced, so each neutral NPC would behave more likely they should*, some leaving at rep 1 and others leaving at rep 20.

*there's no sense for Haer'Dalis, a tiefling DOOMGUARD from the multiverse that deal with demons and the alike and worship entropy to be angered with low reputation, same be valid to Jan Jansen. By another hand it's completely compreensive that Jaheira and Cernd to leave the party at reputation 1 (jaheira specifically even before being an harper and such).

Yoshimo should never leave the party, after all he's doing a mission bound by a geas.

If these requests aren't possible, at least FIX the characters leave banter, as Haer'Dalis use the bring the gem banter when leaving this way, even after the quest is done. Same for Yoshimo that act as if the party just send him to Copper Coronet.

Jarrakul

I dunno, I'm kind of okay with neutral npcs having less tolerance for mass-murdering psychopaths than for holier-than-though goody-goodies. I do agree that certain npcs should have very different tolerance levels, but it seems like the current setup is a good rule of thumb.

That said, you're asking for a mod, so... no skin off my back.

lunar

Being neutral means like being the ordinary guy next door. Tends to stick to his business. Approves of good deeds more than evil ones, ofcourse, but not to the point of actually actively sacrificing his time/money etc. for the good. Basically, those who make sacrifices for the good of others are 'good' while those who harm others for personal gain and pleasure are 'evil'. Neutrals are more like 'live and let live' and they can care for their closest family members, but do not do much for the good of other people they don't know. They don't wish them harm either, ofcourse.

If a person is far too good (rep:20) the common man will maybe scoff that 'the person is too good to be true, it's ridiculous. No one can be that good! But ehh, as long as he keepts it up I guess he is okay.' But when faced with a mass murdering psychopath (rep:1) he will flee and hate that person, not even wanting to be near him.

Shikao

1 & 2 can be achieved by simply modifying Happy.2DA which governs Good/Neutral/Evil NPCs reactions to your reputation. But it does so globally, not per character basis, hence for option 3 you would need a proper mod.

kamuizin

lunar said:

Being neutral means like being the ordinary guy next door. Tends to stick to his business. Approves of good deeds more than evil ones, ofcourse, but not to the point of actually actively sacrificing his time/money etc. for the good. Basically, those who make sacrifices for the good of others are 'good' while those who harm others for personal gain and pleasure are 'evil'. Neutrals are more like 'live and let live' and they can care for their closest family members, but do not do much for the good of other people they don't know. They don't wish them harm either, ofcourse.

If a person is far too good (rep:20) the common man will maybe scoff that 'the person is too good to be true, it's ridiculous. No one can be that good! But ehh, as long as he keepts it up I guess he is okay.' But when faced with a mass murdering psychopath (rep:1) he will flee and hate that person, not even wanting to be near him.

Exist much more shades of neutral than one, three in D&D and surely thousands more in life.

Haer'Dalis is chaotic neutral and still praise the decay and end of everything (entropy), so i see him much more confortable with an evil group than a good group.

Jan jansen is a criminal, someone that deals with the underworld. Rep 1 means infamous to him, means respect, fear and status. Less people would dare cross him, less autorithies would dare mess with his business.

Thx for you and all replies, but still i see no sense in the actual NPC break system.

elminster

kamuizin said:

Jan jansen is a criminal, someone that deals with the underworld. Rep 1 means infamous to him, means respect, fear and status. Less people would dare cross him, less autorithies would dare mess with his business.

Jan is a criminal in the sense he sells illegal things. But that doesnt mean he would stay in a party that is viewed with that amount of destain.

Lord_Tansheron

I'm pretty sure that BG2Tweaks has some option concerning rep and neutral characters, with various tweaks you can apply (like them being happy if your rep is around mid-level etc.).

The reputation/alignment system as a whole is of course not BG's strongest point, and fairly rudimentary. Still, I understand a desire to at least make it a bit more consistent.

kamuizin

Lord_Tansheron said:

I'm pretty sure that BG2Tweaks has some option concerning rep and neutral characters, with various tweaks you can apply (like them being happy if your rep is around mid-level etc.).

The reputation/alignment system as a whole is of course not BG's strongest point, and fairly rudimentary. Still, I understand a desire to at least make it a bit more consistent.

I can keep the neutral characters (or even good ones) in rep1 party. The problem is that these NPCs continue unhappy in the party. What i ask is individuality for each Joinable NPC. Jan Jansen surely leaves when we accept to kill the Svirfneblin in Underdark and make the deed, that's coherent for him, even getting along well with evil characters.