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Dual class Fighter/Druid allowed weapons

Hi guys,

Just starting my first IWD walkthrough and i want to add a druid to my party. I see no reason to add a few fighter levels on him, so why not just dual class a fighter into a druid. Was wondering what weapons would i be allowed to use? I'm assuming all, if everything is the same like in BG2?

Thanks.
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Comments

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Yea their weapon restrictions are the same.
  • milanmmilanm Member Posts: 27
    So i can use everything, thanks! Any recommendations where to invest proficiency points, i have no idea what weapons there are in this game?
  • hisplshispls Member Posts: 166
    milanm said:

    So i can use everything, thanks! Any recommendations where to invest proficiency points, i have no idea what weapons there are in this game?

    Mace, Flail has a couple good options that give you extra priest spells plus a lot of variety throughout the game. There's plenty of solid hammers and a number of good axes. There's quite a few really strong long swords as well.

    Spear, Halberd, Scimitar, and Bastard Sword have some extremely powerful options that you find late game and in HoW but not much to write home about earlier in the game.

    I've noticed few good short bows but many excellent long bows and crossbows, and so far I've only found 1 axe that can be thrown repeatedly. Standard throwing axes are great but are a huge encumbrance issue.

    So far I'd say my biggest regret is investing 5 points into Two Handed Sword for my wizard slayer.

    The real toss up would be whether or not you go dual wield or sword and shield style. There's loads of great shields (some with stat boosts), but I can also see great potential in dual wielding.

    Oh and the game is loaded with undead so plan your party, spells, and items accordingly.
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  • milanmmilanm Member Posts: 27

    Wait, what?? A fighter/druid can use weapons that normal druids can't?

    That doesn't sound right. If true, it sounds like a bug.

    That's what i was asking, can a dual class druid use fighter weapons? Second poster confirmed it, is there a chance it's not true? Still haven't pressed play, can reroll the druid. :smile:
  • ReticentReticent Member Posts: 122
    Nope, fighter/druids are restricted to the same weapons single-class druids are. They do gain the ability to wear all types of armor though.

    Druids do get the ability to conjure some decent weapons via their spells, particularly clubs. So if you are going to go for grandmastery, clubs make a pretty safe choice for them at every stage of the game. Really though you can make any of their weapon options work pretty well regardless.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    milanm said:

    Second poster confirmed it

    They seem like they are just broadly talking about good weapon choices in the game, not just for druids. Druids can only use scimitars, daggers, clubs, spears, quarterstaves, slings, and darts.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    @elminster was verifying that Druids have the same restrictions weapon-wise as BG2.
    Dualing to Druid btw requires 17 wis AND cha, with 15 str needed to allow fighters to dual out.
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    There's a decent scimitar for the offhand. Even still, the stat requirements are a nightmare for those who don't want to sacrifice dex or con.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Dazzu said:

    There's a decent scimitar for the offhand. Even still, the stat requirements are a nightmare for those who don't want to sacrifice dex or con.

    Its not like Cleric with tons of stat boosting spells. 15 str is totally fine to dual to Cleric, but Druid would like better I think!
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    Which is my point, getting an ideal spread of 18/18/18/x/18/18 is rough.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Tell me about it. I did that dual in BG, making full use of the tomes to meet the prereqs with decent physical stats. I think I spent a good hour rolling.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited February 2015
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  • ReticentReticent Member Posts: 122
    edited February 2015
    It isn't too bad in practice for IWD:EE. The bare minimum for dualing, 15/X/X/X/17/17, is workable even with as low as a 75 total because the druid spell list does a very good job of making up for the deficiencies.

    Level 2 spell Beast Claws sets strength to 18/72 and gives +1 APR which makes it a great early option to make up the strength gap, and later you'll have potions/gear/teammate buffs. Animal Rage is a possibility too, 19 str, though when I've toyed with it on a PC I haven't yet found it worth the opportunity cost.

    For defense you'll end up using an Ironskins/Entropy Shield stack which makes you quite durable despite any con or dex you may have skimped on. Plus with your good summons, and possibly also using a reach weapon to keep your distance, you can actually avoid being the direct target of too many attacks.

    OT I love that everyone just accepts druids using scimitars. The actual rule is they can use scythes and sickles, because those are farming implements, and farming is natural, and druids like nature, amirite?

    Then Bioware said "well a scimitar is *like* a sickle, because it starts with 'S' and it's curvy! (But not katanas, no, they're not nearly curvy enough. The difference in the curvature of a scimitar vs. a katana, is *precisely* where you find the boundary of what a druid can and can't equip.)"

    It's so, so dumb, it hurts my brain every time I see it.

    /rant

    It wasn't Bioware that decided that, TSR made that call so long ago that it is D&D canon now.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857

    OT I love that everyone just accepts druids using scimitars. The actual rule is they can use scythes and sickles, because those are farming implements, and farming is natural, and druids like nature, amirite?

    Then Bioware said "well a scimitar is *like* a sickle, because it starts with 'S' and it's curvy! (But not katanas, no, they're not nearly curvy enough. The difference in the curvature of a scimitar vs. a katana, is *precisely* where you find the boundary of what a druid can and can't equip.)"

    It's so, so dumb, it hurts my brain every time I see it.

    /rant

    Well, it should be noted that scimitars are often associated with the moon, as opposed to a more crucifix-shaped sword. Druids, uh, are more tied to the moon and stuff, so, uh, they make sense. Or something. A falchion actually makes more sense though, as similar looking peasant 'tools' were used. Not really curved though, more like an overly large machete than a scimitar. Handy for cutting down scrub, but emminently unsuited to armed combat, as they'd be easily damaged by striking armour, and probably be a a touch light to cause injury like a sword or axe blow that fails to penetrate steel. Peasants were almost always legally restricted from owning weapons though, especially the types used professionally. This was one reason the English stopped training everyone physically capable to use a bow; you don't need much to make a bow, so you could not control access reliably, and an uprising of a few thousand competent peasant archers would be a nightmare to put down.

    Imho, a Fighter to Druid probably will want to just accept 17 wis, and definately 17 charisma, and at least you don't need to worry about Mind Flayers... and you can rely on the mage Strength spells part of the time to get by with 15 until you get a belt. Still, thats 49 points right there! 18 cons and dex would require a +90 roll. If you dual at 7th lvl, you could totally consider 16 cons instead, only lops off 14 HP, 18 dexterity is more useful imho. Even at 9th, thats 18 hp if you take 16, so pretty viable overall. Might be more sane to just Keeper your fighter to the stats you actually want, or use autorolling. Spending more than 10-15 minutes rolling is not my idea of fun, though I have done it before when looking for an 18/00 for a specific build.

    Using Beast Claws early is probably a decent option, especially if you don't have a great weapon. And you definately might not have a good option!
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Yeah, I don't have a 1st edition Player's Handbook on hand, but druids using scimitars goes at least as far back as 2nd Edition D&D. Given that they can also use spears, but they can't use flails, I'd say it's more a matter of "weapons that feel occult and pagan" than "weapons that are/started as farming implements."
  • ReticentReticent Member Posts: 122
    edited February 2015
    Yeah, I started googling around about it and there was a pretty good discussion on the history of druid scimitar use here:

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-53860.html

    Worth the read, but the TLDR version is: Gary Gygax himself gave it to them for the 1e Players Handbook; "It is because the scimitar is as close a sword weapon I could come up with to match the druids' mistletoe-harvesting sickle."

    Noticed in that thread that 1e druids could use hammers as well.
  • reivisionreivision Member Posts: 21
    edited February 2015
    If you're maxing your stats, you need like a 91+ roll I think to get a 18/18/18/x/17/17, which can take a while when rolling against the low minimums for a Human Fighter.

    I think I'd probably characterize weapons for Druids as "serviceable" rather than "awesome" in IWDEE. I think there are decent options for Scimitars, Clubs, Staves, and Spears, but nothing that stands out quite as hard as some in the other categories (Longswords, Maces, Flails). Daggers are mostly Mage-oriented in this game so I'd avoid that route.

    You might also want to give the Shapeshifter kit a gander if you're looking for a melee combatant type of Druid. It's a different flavor than a Fighter/Druid dual and doesn't get GM benefits, but the Werewolf Form is powerful enough in its own right, especially early on and then again when you get Greater Werewolf Form at level 13. You don't use any weapons, but you can get 19-20 crit range from Single Weapon Style (works with paws for some reason), get 2 attacks per round out of the box (and 4 when you get Greater Werewolf), and your paws hit as +2/+3 enchantment level weapons (IIRC) for determining enemies you can hit. Your Str and Dex scores are set when Shapeshifted, so you only really need 15-16 Con for bonus HP/level and a decent Wis score for bonus priest spells. Makes for very easy rolling. The only thing is that you can't cast while Shapeshifted, so you should plan your spell selection around that (either stock up on pre- and post-combat heals and buffs or just drop all your spells and then shapeshift as a backup melee frontliner).
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317

    OT I love that everyone just accepts druids using scimitars. The actual rule is they can use scythes and sickles, because those are farming implements, and farming is natural, and druids like nature, amirite?

    Then Bioware said "well a scimitar is *like* a sickle, because it starts with 'S' and it's curvy! (But not katanas, no, they're not nearly curvy enough. The difference in the curvature of a scimitar vs. a katana, is *precisely* where you find the boundary of what a druid can and can't equip.)"

    It's so, so dumb, it hurts my brain every time I see it.

    /rant

    This is what the Complete Druid's Handbook has to say about what weapons and equipment druid's can use in 2E.

    "Armor and Weapons Permitted. Most druids wear natural armor (leather) and
    use wooden shields. Other armors, especially metallic kinds, are forbidden to all
    druids.
    Most of the weapons permitted to druids of a particular branch resemble tools
    used in herding, hunting, and farming, or hold symbolic meaning to the druid. For
    instance, the curved scimitar and khopesh represent both the sickle used in the harvest
    and the crescent moon, which stands for birth, death, and rebirth in the cycle of
    Nature.
    The standard druid can use the following weapons: club, sickle, dart, spear,
    dagger, scimitar, sling, and staff (optional: scythe).
    Use of metallic weapons and tools usually remains unrestricted, but local
    availability can prove a problem, especially in areas like the arctic tundra.
    Nonmetallic materials can make effective weapons, with the following modifiers
    (compared to similar metallic items):
    Bone: 30% cost; 50% weight; -1 damage; -1 to attack roll.
    Stone: 50% cost; 75% weight; -1 damage; -2 to attack roll.
    Wood: 10% cost; 50% weight; -2 damage; -3 to attack roll.
    The damage modifier reduces the damage normally done by the weapon, with a
    minimum of 1 point of damage. The attack roll modifier does not apply to missile
    weapons, as the attack roll reflects the character's aim and is not a function of the
    material used to make the weapon. Damage modifiers do apply to missile weapons,
    however.
    Enchanted nonmetallic weapons must overcome the negative modifiers, too; thus
    a bone dagger +1 works just as well as a normal steel dagger.
    Whenever a nonmetallic weapon inflicts maximum damage in combat, it has a 1
    in 20 chance of breaking and becoming useless. (The DM rolls a d20.)"
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  • ReticentReticent Member Posts: 122
    Meh. Druids aren't farmers who took up arms, no need to arm them with every single farm tool you might inflict damage with. The proficiencies draw as much on what's symbolic to them as it does on practicality. No more nonsensical than cleric, or anybody else's, weapon restrictions anyway.

    Besides, in a lot of ways farming is one of the least natural things you can do from an ecological view, so depending on how you flavor your druids I could see them not necessarily embracing its trappings.
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  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    @subtledoctor how does flails fit with farming?

    The scimitar is the crescent blade that symbolises the moon.

    The Druid ethos to me has always been about natures cycles and marking the passage of time through natural phenomena like the seasons and the phases of the moon.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    @Wowo You're kidding I hope about flails?? They were developed to thresh grain originally, and used for a very, very long time. Old world grains all need threshing to seperate the grain from the rest of the 'flower'.

    My big beef with Druids is naming them after a real world religious group we aren't entirely certain about. Heck, the words origins aren't even clear. The moon connection and scimitars is probably the best working explanation, but I don't think Celts were fond of strongly curved swords. They used lots of different straight ones though.
  • MountainTigerMountainTiger Member Posts: 7
    That Druid's Handbook excerpt is interesting, because the way it describes armor and weapon restrictions makes it sound like the BG implementations are backwards.

    To me, "other armors, especially metallic kinds, are forbidden to all druids" sounds like a religious restriction, meaning a fighter/druid shouldn't be able to wear non-druid armors.

    "The standard druid can use the following weapons: club, sickle, dart, spear, dagger, scimitar, sling, and staff (optional: scythe). Use of metallic weapons and tools usually remains unrestricted" sounds like the weapon restrictions are more a matter of training/familiarity, which fighter levels should take care of.

    Any PnPers want to enlighten me on whether either of these was the case?
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Even in 3rd Druids were stuck with non-metal armour and shields, but no religion restrictions on weapons. I always assumed BG did it the way it did to make the druid at all viable in BG1 vanilla, when they got a grand total of 1 really okay spell, Entangle. Good armour was enough to make Jaheira useable. Ish.
  • milanmmilanm Member Posts: 27
    Well i started the game with 4 fighters, 1 fighter/thief and 1 paladin. 3 of the fighters are gonna duel into a Mage, Cleric and a Druid, but i have no idea at which level. Is anything above 3 viable? Game seems generous with XP so far, with the difficulty slider on the far right.
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    milanm said:

    Well i started the game with 4 fighters, 1 fighter/thief and 1 paladin. 3 of the fighters are gonna duel into a Mage, Cleric and a Druid, but i have no idea at which level. Is anything above 3 viable? Game seems generous with XP so far, with the difficulty slider on the far right.

    If they're pure fighters then I'd recommend 7th as you get the extra half attack. You'll have no issue getting the xp to finish the duals but as you dual then all at the same time there might be a slow part where you have to change your tactics.

    The extra half attack is really important due to the way haste and other +APR effects work when combined with grandmastery in a chosen weapon (scimitar for Druid, flail for cleric, whatever you like out of long sword, axe and flail or even something else for Mage depending on what your other characters use).
  • milanmmilanm Member Posts: 27
    Yes, they are all unkited fighters. Well i'm already at level 4, leveling is fast so far. Will i still be able to reach high level with the dual classed characters to cast high level spells if i dual at 7? Mage should be able to level up fast just by reading the scrolls, but cleric and druid could be useless for a long time...
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029

    That Druid's Handbook excerpt is interesting, because the way it describes armor and weapon restrictions makes it sound like the BG implementations are backwards.

    To me, "other armors, especially metallic kinds, are forbidden to all druids" sounds like a religious restriction, meaning a fighter/druid shouldn't be able to wear non-druid armors.

    "The standard druid can use the following weapons: club, sickle, dart, spear, dagger, scimitar, sling, and staff (optional: scythe). Use of metallic weapons and tools usually remains unrestricted" sounds like the weapon restrictions are more a matter of training/familiarity, which fighter levels should take care of.

    Any PnPers want to enlighten me on whether either of these was the case?

    Originally, both restrictions were religious, although some druids had different weapons restrictions, just as some clerics did. That means that, while a totem druid might have different weapon restrictions from a vanilla druid, both of them will keep their restrictions when they multiclass or dual. Contrary to BG, this also held true for armor. Later editions have eased up on this, to various extents.
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