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Question about making a mod. "Monkey Grip"

SirickSirick Member Posts: 69
I have only a vague knowledge of modding, so I'm curious if it would be possible to make the following mod idea.

Basically adding a new ability similar to the Monkey Grip feat, allowing a character to wield for example a two-handed sword in one hand and a bastard sword in the other.

For now I just use Keeper to accomplish this, but it would be nice to do it in game and with the right benefits and disadvantages.

Comments

  • HudzyHudzy Member Posts: 290
    I don't see why not. BG2 Tweaks does the reverse, allowing two-handed bastard swords and katanas.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,460
    edited February 2015
    1) From a RP perspective: just out of curiosity, how would you wield a 2-handed sword in one hand in the first place? (Setting aside the follow-up issue of how you then simultaneously *also* wield a hand-and-a-half sword in your *off-hand* with any effectiveness.) This strikes me as a little silly. What is this "monkey grip" thing? (Not to restart the Edition Wars, but it sounds like a 4e thing.)

    2) From a technical perspective: I don't think you could make this a feat or an ability. BG2Tweaks can make bastard swords usable 2-handed by making a whole new item, which is basically a 2-handed sword with the 2-handed sword animation, but bastard sword specs.

    So you could do the opposite: create a 1-handed duplicate of every 2-handed sword, and an item ability to switch back and forth between them. But then anyone would be able to use it 1-handed; you would basically just have a bunch of d10 longswords, which is not what you want. (In fact that's basically how the game already treats bastard swords.)

    3) From an "is it worth the effort?" perspective: is it worth the effort? The game already (quite absurdly) lets you fight with a hand-and-a-half sword in each hand... is anyone seriously finding situations where they say "it's not enough DPS! Need moar DPS!!"

    tl;dr: You could maybe jury-rig something, but it would be hacky and a lot of work for little reward.

    HudzyDreadKhan
  • HudzyHudzy Member Posts: 290
    Monkey grip was a feat in NWN2, so 3.5 edition at least.

    jorge duarte
  • whathuhwhathuh Member Posts: 1
    Download DLTCEP: http://www.gibberlings3.net/tools/dltcep.php
    Or near infinity, but I like DLTCEP better even though near infinity is more powerful.

    I would recommend the following restrictions: this "monkey grip" feat is purely theoretical and can't actually be claimed in game, so anyone can use the feat so long as they can use the weapon. 2nd edition doesn't have feats anyway.

    Find every single weapon you want to monkey grip and give it a new ability name "one handed" which will create a new inventory item (a one handed version of the item you want). Take a look at the rod of lordly might for how to do this.

    Duplicate the weapon you want to be one handed and create that, calling it an entirely new item. The only change should be the two handed flag and the resource it creates when creating a new inventory item.

    If you want to make this public, consider registering a mod prefix. See volothamp's comeuppance for more:
    http://www.pocketplane.net/volothamp/bgguide.htm chapter 12: Modding.

    Grammarsalad
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,419
    edited March 2015
    It comes from 3.5E.

    It's a feat that let's you use a large weapon (spear, two handed swords, halbers) with one hand but you get -2 to Attack Bonus.

    It's not as awesome as it sounds because that -2 to attack (or a +2 penalty to THAC0) hurts your accuracy.
    And also because in 3E, you get a +50% bonus from STR if you use a weapon in two hands.

    In short, you hurt both your damage and your accuracy to be able to use a Greatsword (two handed sword) and shield.
    The only scenarios that feat would be useful would be with unique weapons (like Carsomyr) where you like the extra properties but also need the extra defense.

    And it makes sense as in it requires special training to do (get the Feat) but the size makes it unwieldy still (-2 penalty to attacks).

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Monkey Grip iirc in PnP specifically gives you the ability to wield a larger VERSION of the same weapon at a -2 penalty, not use a two-handed sword in one hand... you are using a Large Longsword to do 2d6 damage, vs a Medium Greatsword to do 2d6 damage. As has been noted, using a two-handed sword in one hand to actually fight is pretty unreasonable, as it isn't balanced for it. You could swing it if you were strong enough (if you can't swing a two-handed slashing or bludgeoning weapon with one handed reasonably, its almost certainly too heavy to actually fight with using two-hands), but you'd be ineffective. That said, I know tons of people mis-use the feat a bit, and I kinda doubt NWN bothered implementing weapon sizes properly, so I wouldn't be surprised if they implemented it funny.

    It actually matters a great deal, because using a reach weapon in one hand would be very, very useful.

    As for actual utility, there are almost no cases when it is worth using Monkey Grip... but almost isn't actually none! A Large Fullblade does 3d8 damage, for +4.5 on average, making it a decent option (normal power attack does slightly less, but is more versatile obviously, but vs very easy to hit stuff, having a gigantic sword on hand will definately up your damage). Its also insanely good for reach weapons... Larger reach weapons have more reach btw, I don't think they bothered to errate that. Especially good for those silly Half-Ogre Spiked Chain builds, as it adds substantial reach, making the build much more powerful. Heck, a Medium or Small warrior could pull off the silly Spiked Chain thing with Monkey Grip, as the Large spiked chain adds 10ft of reach, for that magic 15ft.

    In 2nd ed, I feel its probably not a very appropriate feat, but probably not all that overpowered. I would say make it a HLA. It shouldn't be available to just anyone. Even Sarevok didn't use anything in his off-hand!

  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,419
    edited March 2015
    DreadKhan said:

    Monkey Grip iirc in PnP specifically gives you the ability to wield a larger VERSION of the same weapon at a -2 penalty, not use a two-handed sword in one hand... you are using a Large Longsword to do 2d6 damage, vs a Medium Greatsword to do 2d6 damage. As has been noted, using a two-handed sword in one hand to actually fight is pretty unreasonable, as it isn't balanced for it. You could swing it if you were strong enough (if you can't swing a two-handed slashing or bludgeoning weapon with one handed reasonably, its almost certainly too heavy to actually fight with using two-hands), but you'd be ineffective. That said, I know tons of people mis-use the feat a bit, and I kinda doubt NWN bothered implementing weapon sizes properly, so I wouldn't be surprised if they implemented it funny.

    Actually, the difference is 3.0E vs 3.5E.
    In the former, Monkey Grip allows you to use a Greatsword in one hand, in the latter, it works the way you say.
    NwN2 uses the 3.0E version.

    Also, that's what the -2 penalty represents. Even if you're trained in using a larger weapon in one hand, you wouldn't be as effective as if using a medium weapon.

    Anyway, DnD never was and never will be realistic. If there are people that can kill you with a single punch (Monks), others that turn into animals (Druids) and others that disappear into shadows (Shadowdancer), then a Fighter can at least use a Greatsword in one hand because reasons.

    And I agree, it should be an HLA like Use Any Device for warriors.
    "Use Any Weapon In One Hand Because Epic" should be all the reasoning it needs.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,460
    edited March 2015
    Archaos said:

    Anyway, DnD never was and never will be realistic. If there are people that can kill you with a single punch (Monks), others that turn into animals (Druids) and others that disappear into shadows (Shadowdancer), then a Fighter can at least use a Greatsword in one hand because reasons.

    I find this completely unconvincing. Because reasons. :tongue:

    Anyway the bigger issue is, as far as I can tell it is completely impossible to achieve this. So whatever.

    Actually wait: You could have the HLA shift the fighter into a new kit, and then adapt the method here with an .EFF targeting that kit -
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/621842/#Comment_621842
    ... and then within that context, adapt the BG2Tweaks code that switches bastard swords from 1- to 2-handed use.

    It would be hideously complex, for the sake of achieving a result that I see as objectionable (I agree with everything Dreadkhan said above)... but it might be possible.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,419
    edited March 2015


    I find this completely unconvincing. Because reasons. :tongue:

    Well, the rules and games themselves don't try to be very convincing with other stuff either, sooo... ;)

  • IchigoRXCIchigoRXC Member Posts: 1,001
    It should only be possible for people with absurd strength, IMO. I mean someone with some form of Giant strength I could possibly see wielding a zweihander in one hand.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,460
    Well I outlined how it can be done... get out there and do it!

  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,394
    edited March 2016

    2) From a technical perspective: I don't think you could make this a feat or an ability. BG2Tweaks can make bastard swords usable 2-handed by making a whole new item, which is basically a 2-handed sword with the 2-handed sword animation, but bastard sword specs.

    So you could do the opposite: create a 1-handed duplicate of every 2-handed sword, and an item ability to switch back and forth between them. But then anyone would be able to use it 1-handed; you would basically just have a bunch of d10 longswords, which is not what you want. (In fact that's basically how the game already treats bastard swords.)

    See, here's where years of subverting the engine with Rube Goldbergian code pays off.

    Once you have the 1-handed versions of the swords, pile 'em into a big spell chock full of opcode 180s listing each item, and apply that to all PCs via CLABs or scripts. To grant the ability, simply apply a spell with 321 to undo it. Now your chosen few can use the one-handers.

    edit: fixed quotes

    Grammarsalad
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,460
    Ah - So that presumes this involves a kit ability, not a feat/HLA available to anyone (unless the feat shifts you into a new kit, Refinements-style). So, say you use an item ability to convert Lilarcor into one-handed use. Now only a member of the special monkey-grip kit can wield it. (Plus thieves with UAI...?)

    But, if you're not a member of that kit, you can't equip the sword. And if you can't equip the sword, you can't use the item ability to switch it back to 2-handed use so that you can use it again! It's the Faerunian equivalent of bricking your iPhone... :smiley:

  • IchigoRXCIchigoRXC Member Posts: 1,001


    But, if you're not a member of that kit, you can't equip the sword. And if you can't equip the sword, you can't use the item ability to switch it back to 2-handed use so that you can use it again! It's the Faerunian equivalent of bricking your iPhone... :smiley:

    This made me chuckle. :smiley:

  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,394

    Ah - So that presumes this involves a kit ability, not a feat/HLA available to anyone (unless the feat shifts you into a new kit, Refinements-style).

    No, using CLABs is simply one shortcut to making sure everyone gets the can't-use-them spell. You could also do it via scripting. Same deal with the can-use-them spell--you could use CLABs or script that, too.

    But, if you're not a member of that kit, you can't equip the sword. And if you can't equip the sword, you can't use the item ability to switch it back to 2-handed use so that you can use it again! It's the Faerunian equivalent of bricking your iPhone... :smiley:

    There are always trade-offs to jiggery-pokery like this.

    AstroBryGuy
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,509
    edited March 2016
    Edit: nevermind

    Post edited by Grammarsalad on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,460
    CamDawg said:

    There are always trade-offs to jiggery-pokery like this.

    Ha ha, believe me, I have found that out the hard way numerous times. :tongue:

    Grammarsalad
  • ThelsThels Member Posts: 1,339
    3.0 didn't have same weapons in different sizes yet. All weapons were designed for Medium sized creatures, and your character's size determined how you used it.

    For example, Humans treated a Dagger or a Short sword as a light weapon, a Longsword as a onehanded weapon, and a Greatsword as a twohanded weapon. They were unable to wield Fullblades.

    A Halfling would treat a Dagger as a light weapon, a Short sword as a onehanded weapon, and a Longsword as a twohanded weapon. They were unable to wield Greatswords and Fullblades.

    An Ogre would treat a Dagger, a Short sword or a Longsword as a light weapon, a Greatsword as a onehanded weapon, and a Fullblade as a twohanded weapon.

    (Light weapons are onehanded weapons that have reduced penalties when dualwielding, and also allow the use of some feats such as Weapon Finesse.)

    Monkey Grip was a feat with a Strength prerequisite, that would allow you to wield a weapon one size category larger, but at a -2 penalty. So a Human with Monkey Grip could wield a Greatsword in one hand at a -2 penalty, or wield a Fullblade in both hands at a -2 penalty.

    3.5 overhauled it so that weapons came in different sizes. There were Mediumsized Daggers, Short swords, Longswords and Greatswords for Humans, Dwarves, Elves and Orcs, Smallsized Daggers, Short swords, Longswords and Greatswords for Halflings, Gnomes and Goblins, and Largesized Daggers, Short swords, Longswords and Greatswords for Ogres and the like.

    Larger and Smaller versions would alter the dice. For example, a Humansized Longsword deals 1d8, a Halflingsized Longsword deals 1d6, and an Ogresized longsword deals 2d6.

    Here's a full overview.

    So, say you're a Human trained in the use of Greatswords. You could learn the Monkey Grip feat, take a -2 penalty, and deal 3d6 damage instead of 2d6.

    Sounds good? Well, there are downsides:

    First, you have to find that Ogresized Greatsword. They don't come plenty. Whereas you're likely to loot a Humansized Greatsword here and there, you'd probably have to have the Ogre sized one made for you, and large items are generally double the regular price.

    Second, the -2 penalty is always on. If you want to 'turn the penalty off', you'd have to switch to a regular blade. Not only does that mean you have to purchase and bring not 1, but 2 blades, it also costs actions to swap between them. Find out in the middle of combat that an opponent is really hard to hit? Well, you could drop your Ogre blade on the ground, draw the Human blade, and attack once (rather than multiple times), and then pray you don't have to flee and leave that blade behind, but it's not efficient.

    Third, there's also a feat called Power Attack. Power Attack allows you to take a penalty on attack roll to gain a bonus on the damage roll (which is twice the penalty for twohanded weapons). Thus, you could take a -2 penalty to deal 2d6+4 damage, which averages to 11 damage, while 3d6 averages to 10.5. Not only is it slightly more damage, and more reliable damage, you can choose your penalty from round to round. Find out that an opponent has lots of hit points, but little armor, go Power Attack with -5 for +10 damage! Run into a heavily armored knight, don't take any penalty for Power Attack and try to just hit him. Oh, and Power Attack opens up a feat chain with some great feats, such as Cleave. Monkey Grip opens... nothing!

    All in all, it was a seriously crappy feat.

    3.5 also had some races (Goliath, Half-Giant) that had the "Powerful Build" racial property. This allowed them to use weapons one size category larger with no penalties, but didn't grant any other size related bonuses or penalties.

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