Thief/Mage: Assassin or Shadowdancer?

Arunsun

Hey guys,
I wanted to make a new PC, a human thief dualed into mage.
But there I have a choice to make, so I am just gonna write pros and cons I have thought about for each kit, and I am asking you to add the possible pros and cons I forgot, or to tell me which is better in your opinion and why.

Assassin:
Huge backstab, meaning very very huge damages with Black Blade of Disaster, not to mention poison weapon that can totally ruin a lot of enemies through the game in the game.
Need to dual at level 21 with assassin (to get max backstab) which gets you to level 24 as mage.
Same thief skills points per level as shadowdancer, but higher level means of course more points to spend.

Shadowdancer:
Lower backstab (only *4) but should still be able to get the job done.
Can dual from lvl 13 and still get its max backstab (I would actually dual lvl 15, meaning I get lvl 28 as mage which is still the max number of spellcast). This would be one more lvl8-9 spell, compared to assassin.
Hide in plain sight+ shadowstep: this would allow me to spam backstab for very good sustained damage. Would lose interest lategame due to enemies seeing invisible and items that allow me to go invisible which would be better for assassin than shadowdancer. But basically this+ spell immunity: divination would be the bread and butter combo.


I cannot really make a choice as both seem quite good, so I hope you guys can help me with it

Blackraven

Both are very potent combos. I'd go with the Shadowdancer because you won't have to dual at such a high level.

mumumomo

Backstab is not the main selling point of the assassin, poison weapon is, especially in combo with MMM or energy blade. Therefore dualling at high level is not necessary

Furthermore, HIPS seems to have low interest when you can re-cast invisibility by your self.

I'd defintely go assassin-mage. I would dual at 13 at most.

Arunsun

@Blackraven : thank you for your opinion, that was indeed the combo I first thought about when I thought "Thief/Mage".

@mumumomo : it is true that assassin's good as well for its poison weapon, and that indeed it is not necessary to dual at level 21.
But I do disagree with your HIPS point:
Hide in shadows doesn't count as a spellcast, meaning you can use it AND use another spell during the same round, that surely is not to be neglected. Invisibility consume one spell slot and your spellcast for this round, HIPS does the same for free.
By the way I would like not to use energy blades too much because they are buggy and totally gamebreaking in EE, as when you consume them all you have 10 APR till you reload the game, and this cannot be dispeled or slow or anything. Meaning that using them early in a fight would transform you into a killing machine during the entire fight (10 APR with Staff of the Magi or BBoD would be all but stupidly broken).
What is MMM? I am new to the forum, I guess MM stands for Magic Missile but what is the third M?

Last point: what is the point of dualing level 13 compared to level 15? You ultimately get the same number of spell cast, but higher HP and higher thief skills.

Blackraven

Melf's Minute Meteors, they're really good at 5 APR, with the Assassin's poison damage.

As to the best level to dual an Assassin:
If I'm not mistaken the potency of the poison increases with levels. The poison is at its strongest as of level 15, with 42 damage over 14 seconds (save vs death for 12 damage in 4 seconds) for each uccessful attack. Besides, if the victim fails a save vs. death they get slowed for 30 seconds.

Arunsun

Oh yeah Melf minute meteors, forgot about this (OP) spell.
As for Assassin poison, its kit description states that it deals 2 damages per second for 6 second with no saving throw, and another 1 damage per round over 4 round if saving throw against poison fails. It doesn't say anything about scaling with level or slowing enemies as you said.

Blackraven

Hmm, my info is based on the original games. Check out this link if you want: http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/thieves.php.
I can't tell for sure if it applies also to the EEs (would have to test it), but I'd be surprised if it didn't.

Arunsun

Just tested it in EE (level 21 assassin on Illasera). I hit Illasera, she suffered 2 poison damage per second for 6 seconds, which tends to confirm the behaviour I described which is the one from EE kit description (even if her saving throw was succesful, your version would have been 3 poison damage per second for 4 second)
Not surprising it got nerfed considering how strong it was back in normal BG2.

matrice

If the poison stack, then assassin.
Else the shadowdancer, cause being invisible all the time is outrageously OP.

And if the invis is not a deciding factor cause some people can see through it, those people are also immune to backstab, so the backstab isn't aswell.
If you have a good enough number of skill point to go invis, you basically can become invis all the time, even versus true sight, by just reusing the invis. And that's insane

Arunsun

Poison stacks but as you said being invisible all the time is OP (Mages are overpowered due to staff of the Magi after all) , so it does not help me a lot with my choice:(
I will certainly end up doing both. It s not like e exping and equipping characters was long in EE with black pits