tried and true method of mob destruction... still works fine in HOF

Ichthyic

I see a lot of the FAQs and guides talking about how damaging magic is near useless in HOF because of the increased enemy hps.

pah I say.

an old technique I used to use to great effect back when the original came out still works fine, even at level 20 HOF.

-get any item that gives acid resistance, or drink a potion of +50% acid resistance.
-cast the mage spell: protection from acid on whoever you plan to have upfront taking the mobs.
-once surrounded, cast death fog and acid storm right on top of them.

done.

any damage your front liners take will quickly be healed by the 150% acid "resistance" healing them every time death fog and acid storm trip.

unless your enemies are immune to acid, this will quickly whittle them down, even in HOF. just spent the entire burial island doing this, kiting all the mobs to one place and simply melting them while healing my tanks.

even faster and safer if you have a bard singing sith (damage reduction and regeneration on top of the regeneration from the acid baths).

even faster if you pull the same trick at the same time with fire potions and protection with fire, then cast incendiary cloud and have fun with fireballs or what have you.

the constant damage pretty well disables most enemy mages from casting, unless they have high level protections up, in which case, keep a slot open for a magic breacher spell, and set your sequencer with a triple magic resistance lowering spell if they have resistance.

I prefer death fog over acid storm, because it also slows the enemies. giving your tanks a chance to out maneuver them if they get into any difficulties.

toss some webs or entangles out of the enemies aren't immune. with all the checks on saves, at least a few of them will fail every round and some enemies will get immobilized.

Ichthyic

...oh, I forgot to add... each of your mages can cast another death fog and acid storm... the effects will stack. with just two mages, by turn 3 you are doing an average of 40 damage per turn to everything in the cloud, and healing your tanks for half that.

Wowo

Maybe mention what level you need to be for this to be a viable strategy and where to get the parts needed.

FinneousPJ

Isn't it faster and easier to just hack them down

Lord_Tansheron

While this strategy certainly works, it's available at a point in the game where it doesn't matter. What's difficult about HoF are the EARLY levels, where you don't have all the tools available to you. Once you get a few good levels under your belt, it becomes progressively easier, until you reach a point where you are basically immortal anyway and just busy slogging through the truckloads of HP - and to do that most efficiently, weapon damage is probably the way to go. Yes there are situations where spells will do more damage because they scale better with the number of monsters, but as soon as you're NOT fighting 20+ mobs at a time, spells drastically lose in value (not to mention they're limited casts etc.).

Ichthyic

FinneousPJ said:

Isn't it faster and easier to just hack them down

my mains have AC -15 and -17. 50% physical damage resistance. level 18 and 20. they still get mauled by drowned dead in HOF and wights if there are more than a handful.

this technique always keeps them alive, and all the dead end up crowded in front of them, either flailing or stuck in a web, all taking signficant damage every turn.

so... shorter answer... no, it isn't faster, or safer.

Ichthyic

Lord_Tansheron said:

While this strategy certainly works, it's available at a point in the game where it doesn't matter. What's difficult about HoF are the EARLY levels, where you don't have all the tools available to you. Once you get a few good levels under your belt, it becomes progressively easier, until you reach a point where you are basically immortal anyway and just busy slogging through the truckloads of HP - and to do that most efficiently, weapon damage is probably the way to go. Yes there are situations where spells will do more damage because they scale better with the number of monsters, but as soon as you're NOT fighting 20+ mobs at a time, spells drastically lose in value (not to mention they're limited casts etc.).

this is true for the main quest. but not if you jump to HOW in HOF mode.

I don't think people are really experiencing just how tough these guys can get.

when you jump to HOW with HOF at high levels, the enemies are scaled up to you.

so now a wight has 200 hps, a drowned dead well over that. they hit for 90-100 damage against an unprotected target.

go ahead. tell me how easy the spirit bear fight was if you weren't hugely prepared in advance for it.

-bears hit for massive damage and there are half dozen of them, plus half dozen wolves, plus the big spirit bear that hits like a truck, plus fear, plus stat drains, so half your crew has 5 strength.

tell me how you just mowed through that with fighters.

so no.. I don't agree with your assessment.

Wowo

Ichthyic said:

Lord_Tansheron said:

While this strategy certainly works, it's available at a point in the game where it doesn't matter. What's difficult about HoF are the EARLY levels, where you don't have all the tools available to you. Once you get a few good levels under your belt, it becomes progressively easier, until you reach a point where you are basically immortal anyway and just busy slogging through the truckloads of HP - and to do that most efficiently, weapon damage is probably the way to go. Yes there are situations where spells will do more damage because they scale better with the number of monsters, but as soon as you're NOT fighting 20+ mobs at a time, spells drastically lose in value (not to mention they're limited casts etc.).

this is true for the main quest. but not if you jump to HOW in HOF mode.

I don't think people are really experiencing just how tough these guys can get.

when you jump to HOW with HOF at high levels, the enemies are scaled up to you.

so now a wight has 200 hps, a drowned dead well over that. they hit for 90-100 damage against an unprotected target.

go ahead. tell me how easy the spirit bear fight was if you weren't hugely prepared in advance for it.

-bears hit for massive damage and there are half dozen of them, plus half dozen wolves, plus the big spirit bear that hits like a truck, plus fear, plus stat drains, so half your crew has 5 strength.

tell me how you just mowed through that with fighters.

so no.. I don't agree with your assessment.

I've determined that the most efficient strategy for the island is to run past everything while invisible and then come back later after you've gained the massive quest that's available, if at all.

For spell damage Druids are quite capable in the strategy as they can drop many spike stones and snares which do considerable piercing damage and/or can tank with 100% physical damage resistance via forms+shield of faith+items.

Ichthyic

same kinda deal, yup.

lunar

Do monsters get a save vs spells bonus in HoF? I remember disintegrating The Bear Spirit in normal mode:doesn't matter how many hp, ac, or thac0 he has, one failed save and he is done for.

Wowo

lunar said:

Do monsters get a save vs spells bonus in HoF? I remember disintegrating The Bear Spirit in normal mode:doesn't matter how many hp, ac, or thac0 he has, one failed save and he is done for.

They are higher level so they have better saves I'm fairly certain but instant death can still work especially if combined with save penalty spells (a cleric/Mage can drop prayer/recitation/greater malison in a spell sequencer for -7 to saves).

Ichthyic

all their saves usually roll above 20 (common rolls are in the 22-26 range).

instant death spells are hard to use in HOF, unless you want to mallison, and doom your targets a couple of times. but then, the idea of "instant death" starts to fade a bit, as it takes 4 or 5 rounds to take out enemies with instant death effects :P

at base, my experience looking at the rolls is that you have about a 5% chance of getting an instant death spell check to succeed. with mallison, that goes to about 10%, add a couple of levels of doom, now 20%... etc.

it's doable, especially if you are running a bunch of fighter/mage/clerics, but it takes a few rounds, and you waste a lot of spell slots.

alternatively, you can try a combination of no save death spells, and whittle your targets down first before you cast. that probably would be more reliable, but of course the problem is, you can never really tell exactly how many hps an enemy has left. I think I recall an old mod from years back for the original IWD that actually allowed you to see the enemy hps. that was extremely helpful in deciding when to use no save power word spells, for sure.

personally, fire resist potions and spells are low level and common. once your mage hits level 16, and can cast incendiary cloud, just make all your guys +127% reistant to fire, and cast it right on top. at level 18, you can add a meteor storm. and your mages can sunfire after that.

and all that fire damage... heals you and hurts the enemy.

it's a tad bit tougher to do with acid, but not much, and more enemies are not resistant to acid.

Ichthyic

... another example of how destructive spells can be hugely successful in HOF.

was doing TOTL (trials of luremaster).

entered the catacombs, and discovered a secret door.

I had just cast shambling mound... but it couldn't fit through the door.

then I realized... if there was anything else down that passageway... the shambling mound would entirely block it from entering the starting area in the catacombs.

so, i cast haste on a mound and my paladin. send the paladin through the door.

sure enough... there's a literal swarm of undead on the other side.

he gets their attention, runs back to the main room.. move the shambler to block the door.

cast incendiary cloud right in front of the shambler. odd that a plant thing is immune to fire damage but.. whatever.

fight is over in 30 seconds. whatever the mound doesn't pound, the incendiary cloud annihilates.

the rest of my guys just stand around, watching.

easy pz HOF.

Ichthyic

egads... i had forgotten how brutal shambling mounds actually were until I started TOTL and had to fight one.

Ichthyic

Wowo said:

Maybe mention what level you need to be for this to be a viable strategy and where to get the parts needed.

i forgotted.

lesee, for acid to work, you need protection from acid, there are some scrolls about, but of course ideally you want the spell.

that's a level 5 mage spell, so you'll need a level 9 mage.

so, basically, level 9 is earliest you can do this, though likely you will have to wait for good acid spells until level 12. although you can get some effect out of acid orbs. at least you don't have to worry about splash damage. hell, you're actually counting on it.

use clerics or paladins up front as your tanks.

cast protection from acid on them. have the priestly types cast armor of faith. that will boost their protection over the 100% mark without having any gear or potions, and it just gets better with level.

fire comes even earlier. protection from fire is a level 3 mage spell, and a level 3 cleric spell. or use a potion and the level 2 cleric spell for fire/cold protection.

once you have that, protection from fire items and potions are common. you can fireball your tanks to heal them, starting at level 5, and it just gets better from there.

have your tanks engage, then have your blurred, mirrored, stoneskinned mages walk in and sunfire your way up the levels. then delayed fireball, firestorms, flamestrikes, and finally incendiary clouds (that's the biggie) and meteor storm.

like I said though, fire is easier and bigger, but also is resisted by many many more monsters than acid is.