Looking for some party advice - mostly specific dc questions
Aerich
Member Posts: 273
Hi folks -
Bit of background, I am a longtime IWD/IWD2 player, but it's been 7+ years since my last full run through the game. I've got a party together, and am looking for some specific advice on a few points. The party is playing on Insane, then will do a second run through HoF; vanilla IWDEE, no tweaks or mods; stats are 85+; my play style is about managing combat efficiently and runs more toward crowd control than max DPS at all times.
Dwarven Defender
Human Kensai (will dc to mage)
Half Orc F/C
Half Elf F/Dr
Gnome Cl/Ill
Human Assassin (will dc to mage)
Questions:
1) Aside from the lvl 30 cap, is there an XP cap for dc characters? I'm thinking of doing a very high level dc for the assassin (17+, maybe even 21) but I have seen reference in a couple places to an 8M cap. Is there actually any impediment to a 21/30 assassin/mage?
2) Best actual level to dc the assassin? Looking for a balance between max value and playability, so will want to have high sneak attack/backstab but not be without thief skills before certain trap heavy areas (e.g. DE lvl 5 on HoF round).
3) Assassin currently uses short swords and short bows, am mulling over crossbow proficiency. Will she be able to use heavy crossbows?
4) Will probably dc the kensai at over lvl 9. Best level to dual at? I've seen posts with duals at 12 and 13, to take advantage of kensai bonus and fighter increase to A/R respectively, but have also seen some fairly strong opinions on those options with not much explanation. Would someone like to lay it out for me?
Thanks!
Bit of background, I am a longtime IWD/IWD2 player, but it's been 7+ years since my last full run through the game. I've got a party together, and am looking for some specific advice on a few points. The party is playing on Insane, then will do a second run through HoF; vanilla IWDEE, no tweaks or mods; stats are 85+; my play style is about managing combat efficiently and runs more toward crowd control than max DPS at all times.
Dwarven Defender
Human Kensai (will dc to mage)
Half Orc F/C
Half Elf F/Dr
Gnome Cl/Ill
Human Assassin (will dc to mage)
Questions:
1) Aside from the lvl 30 cap, is there an XP cap for dc characters? I'm thinking of doing a very high level dc for the assassin (17+, maybe even 21) but I have seen reference in a couple places to an 8M cap. Is there actually any impediment to a 21/30 assassin/mage?
2) Best actual level to dc the assassin? Looking for a balance between max value and playability, so will want to have high sneak attack/backstab but not be without thief skills before certain trap heavy areas (e.g. DE lvl 5 on HoF round).
3) Assassin currently uses short swords and short bows, am mulling over crossbow proficiency. Will she be able to use heavy crossbows?
4) Will probably dc the kensai at over lvl 9. Best level to dual at? I've seen posts with duals at 12 and 13, to take advantage of kensai bonus and fighter increase to A/R respectively, but have also seen some fairly strong opinions on those options with not much explanation. Would someone like to lay it out for me?
Thanks!
0
Comments
2. If you don't have your thief levels back by the time you get to DE5 the second time, you can just go to Lonelywood and rack up a ton of experience. I wouldn't worry about it too much.
3. No, only light crossbows.
4. A lot of the advice you'll see on when to dual-class is for BG2, which has a hard experience cap. In IWD, it's safe to dual-class late, since you can always reach level 30 in your second class. Your party sounds capable of babysitting a low-level character for a long time, so I wouldn't do it any earlier than level 13. It just depends on how you feel about being powerful early vs. being super-powerful eventually. Given that you like more crowd control stuff, maybe you want another arcane caster sooner rather than later.
I'm thinking that I'll probably hold on to lvl 21 to dc the assassin, unless anyone has thoughts on a "better" high-level at which to dc.
I'll probably take the kensai to a lvl or two beyond 13. This party will have enough melee before and after the kensai regains his levels. It makes sense to use this character as a HoF boss-killer with MI and Stoneskin etc. as the DD may not be up to it. I'll need those kensai levels.
Even before the dcs dual I'll have enough spell support, and once I add two more arcane casters to the mix, it'll be crazy. This party already feels overpowered for Insane, although I'm still in the early stages. The assassin is nastier than expected.
HoF, slowly but surely, turns into a cakewalk for a party that starts fresh. So what can it do against a party that's already leveled, has gear, especially one with a Mage that already has the benefit of a full spell book?
If you're importing to HoF you shouldn't worry about the difficulty. The Cleric/Illusionist with Find Traps activated can just walk through traps with all the protections it has access to and Invisibility, then later on just open chests by themselves.
If you min max then HoF should only be done with a fresh party.
I'd only consider importing to HoF mode if I was playing with a total non min max party, like, no adjusting stats up and down and no OP classes/kits.
My level 1 HoF party was something like:
Kensei -> Druid
Kensei -> Mage
Skald
Berserker -> Cleric
Priest of Lathander -> Fighter
Swashbuckler -> Mage
I then started another run with a friend with just a FMC and a FMT, much more fun.
So imported parties that completed a previous playthrough that don't end up wrecking HoF from the get go are pretty rare, since nearly every party seems to have a Cleric, Druid or Mage in them.
However, with this particular party I'm working myself back into gaming shape and trying to gain familiarity with the new changes/kits, experimenting with spells, etc.
2) Depends what you want out of this Thief. If you want to get the most out of your Assassin's backstab, however, you'll need to hit 21st level as a Thief. This will take about 2,400,000 XP to do, and to hit 22nd level as a Mage you'll need 4,500,000 XP. If you want to min-max, there's no reason you can't hit 29th level as a Thief, though.
3) Short Bows are awful in IWD. Awful. The best bow in the game is the Longbow +4: Hammer... which you can't use. Crossbows are probably a better bet for most of the main game, as you can get a Heavy Crossbow of Speed fairly early on, and a Reinforced Heavy Crossbow later, both of which have good attack and damage bonuses, and bonus attacks per round. Later on, pick up the Dagger "Lover +4". It can be used as a ranged weapon or a melee weapon, and you can use a shield in your off-hand. Far superior to any Short Bow in the game.
4) Kensai get most of the Hit Points they'll receive by 9th level, but there are several reasons people dual-class at 12th level. First, more weapon proficiency slots. Second, slightly more HP and THAC0. Third, and most importantly, 12th level gets them bonus attack and damage (+1/3 levels), (-1 speed factor/4 levels) and another use of Kai (1/4 levels). The next time they'll get a level as stacked is level 24, but otherwise their THAC0 progression ends at 20th level, and by then you'll have all the weapon proficiencies you'll need (especially considering you'll get more as a Mage). If you want to min-max, again, hit level 29. If you want to gain your Kensai abilities back any time soon, level 21 or 24 should be sufficient.
IMHO, you might have more fun with a swashbuckler to mage dualed a fair bit earlier. It'll cover your thief needs, and give you another mage sooner, though scrolls aren't exactly overabundant.
If you intend to dual out of fighter earlier, Berserker has an edge over Kensai, but if you want to go later, Kensai is a decent choice, even for a Cleric dual. Clerics are really good in IWD remember, and mages WAY less required vs BG2, though if you enjoy dropping massive spell damage, a mage or sorcerer is the best at it.
Most casual players shouldn't play HoF without an imported party. 1 goblin will manage a TPK if you don't have optimal tactics. If you do you optimal tactics, it's STILL pretty hard. An already high level party can play through HoF using suboptimal tactics and still win/have fun, which is the idea IMO for casual play.
@Haeravon, regarding #3, the suggestion for Lover is a good one. But until I get to that point, I need a better ranged weapon, and I understand that the assassin can't use heavy crossbows. I'm really only using shortbows for the APR and the ability to do additional poison damage. I will add crossbow proficiency just in case I get the light crossbow of speed or some other extra APR crossbow I can use.
I'll stick with dualing the Kensai at lvl 13-15 for the APR. I'm a little concerned about downtime before I get the Kensai levels back, so I don't want to go into the 20s for Kensai levels. 13-15 levels of Kensai plus the wizard buffs are plenty sufficient for a melee monster. I'm less concerned about regaining the assassin levels, as the assassin's abilities in this party are more about utility/perks, not front line capability.
An extra multiplier or two isn't worth it if you're not going to exploit Mislead+Backstab with Improved Haste and the Long Sword of Action or the Valiant
If I were to suggest one thing that would broaden your weaponry selection a bit, I'd tell you to replace the f/c with a blackguard (if you want even more poison) or an undead hunter (lots of undead enemies in IWD plus Pale Justice). Further, for some backstabbingwhacking fun, a half-orc cleric/thief is very rewarding once you get hold of a good club (e.g. Svian's +5 from Burial Isle). Another thing you might want to try is a monk, as IWDEE adds a couple of monk-specific items. But these are all suggestions for a future playthrough. In the meantime, enjoy your current one!
And honestly the Pale Justice is something you get at the end of the game. At that point whatever benefit that +7 provides is practically miniscule. At least the LSoA can be acquired fairly early if the player goes through HoW.
All you need is a +1 weapon for most of the game. And if you really want to be sure, there's like a dozen Morning Star/Flails +2 or 3 that the game gives you. Long Swords is another well populated proficiency.
Many would rather pull out their eye teeth than do a really late fighter dual in IWD I hear, but someone running a pure fighter might as well maximize potential.
So no, the Paladin is still behind since the Fighter adds 3 damage to both weapons effectively turning two +4's into +7's while the Paladin only has a +7 in one hand and a +4 in the other. And this bonus is effective on every enemy in the game.
Dualing at 7 grants .5 APR with GM over a 13+ Paladin, which the Paladin can't match unless they equip a second +APR item.
And just for giggles since you brought up dual classing, F>M has Mislead, Simulacrum (for 2 Fighters) and Time Stop. Then there's Tenser's Transformation, Black Blade of Disaster. Oh and that's not including Kensai bonuses + Kai or Berserk from a Berserker. So a late game +7 is pretty insignificant given what a F>M can do at the end of the game.
Paladins get access to cleric spells, even more than in BG. AoF, DUHM, etc, make a Paladin that can cast VERY competitive with a fighter mage late game. For heaven's sake, its not like someone else can't cast Improved Haste on you, a Paladin has full access to that spell if he's in a party. Fighter Mages have a very low maximum strength, meaning the Paladin at high levels will hit harder than a pure Fighter, since he can with buffing get it over 20 str. For a human fighter in IWD, iirc 20 is the max with gear. A Paladin casting DUHM will have more. Fighter Mages suffer a great deal from the difficulty to boost str in IWD, something BG allows you to do to divine levels.
Besides, I clearly said PRETTY COMPETITIVE. If you're going to argue, don't put words into my mouth. Non-Inquisitor Paladins are pretty competitive with fighters.
"Oh yeah? Well if we min-max powergame, we can then whine the game isn't challenging enough because I can abuse the poor design of Mislead!!" Yeah, that. Good luck arguing that with me.
A STR boost is pretty irrelevant when there's a second version of the Fighter>Mage swinging the same weapons. Even if it's a little weaker it's still going to output more than enough damage to compensate for the lack of an STR boost.
Also if it matters then that's what the Fighter>Cleric is for. And since you brought DUHM up, Fighter>Clerics get STR breakpoints faster than a Paladin does. The Fast Flail makes up for the Long Sword of Action. Up until the final boss anyway.
Which is relatively irrelevant because for nearly most of the game the Fighter>Cleric has been doing more damage than the Paladin.
It doesn't matter how unchallenging the game is. The Pale Justice is a pretty lame weapon to center a character around on mechanically. It's a late game item, with a fairly small bump in damage for a character that's stuck as a gimped version of a Fighter>Cleric for extra weapon proficiencies that don't really matter. Nor access to the various cheese spells the Fighter>Mage has
Also, if a something needs a late game weapon to be competitive, that's pretty much a problem in itself.
(A) is this doable and (B) is some way I can import all the items I picked up on my first runthrough and pass it off to the new party...thinking of importing my F/M/T and passing it to the new party then dumping her?