Interesting Monk for DnD (5e)
Tomorrow 6 of us are going to begin playing a brand new DnD campaign, old school table top goodness. I'm excited about playing this new (and best version IMHO), NOT being the DM, meeting a couple of new friends, for Dave (his first time DMing), and about my new character. A monk.
I have always liked monks, but until now they could not stand on their own without a lot of unrealistic multiclassing or other forms of aid. They used to be too weak in the beginning and then too powerful towards the end. 4e kind of got them balanced but in 5e they are a viable combatant at every level. A pure single class monk is a great character except for one major annoyance. Their end game "feature" doesn't satisfy me in the slightest. 4 ki at the beginning of your round if you start it with 0. It's useful I guess but by then you have a daily pool of 20 ki and the most taxing thing between two of the paths costs only 3 ki. The elemental monk really needs that ki boost but they need it way before level 20. I love the concept of elemental monks, but the spell selection is weak, at end game you get like 5 things, they are costly to use, and not all that awesome. So I decided to forget about level 20 and select one level of another class. Here is what I came up with.
Naga Ken (dragon fist) was born and raised in the Shou Dynasty (speaks Shou Common Tongue) of Kara-Tur. The Shou only worship the Celestial Bureaucracy, all other religious beliefs are forbidden. At age 6 his parents brought him to the monastery of Master Xan Lung, a wise man with mighty powers. High in the mountains he and other gifted children endured hardships that tested the very essence of their humanity (the foundation for level one monk abilities, acrobatics proficiency). Naga Ken showed exceptional promise and was favored by Master Xan. Sometimes during meditation Naga Ken would have shadowy visions of his family, their voice distant and not always clear. And their faces and bodies always cast in shadow. Sometimes he would be playing with his two brothers and 2 sisters. Other times he would be learning about natural medicine and how to make cures (herbalism kit proficiency). Sometimes his father would teach him the ancient practice of calligraphy (proficiency with the artisan supplies needed), his father would be very strict and emphasize the importance of this. Naga Ken does not know them, only through these troubling visions. Master Xan would not help him understand, only offering cryptic advice and preaching patience. At age 12 a nightmare played out in front of him. Shadows moved in and out of sight, his brothers and teachers slaughtered, the monastery burned to the ground. Master Xan defended Naga Ken and rescued him. They made their way to the docks and Xan arranged to have Naga Ken smuggled far away to a new world. He handed him a cloth, looked him in the eyes, and said, "Fulfill your destiny.". In the cloth was an amulet, with a detailed image of the sun. He kept is secret and safe.
The voyage was brutal, the crew was not nice. Naga Ken was beaten and starved, he endured many near fatal illnesses. After two agonizing years he was sold into slavery, in a world that was very alien to him. Over the next 5 years Naga Ken has moved from town to town, facing many dangers and learning skills (street urchin background) as he recovered his strength and grew into a man. Starting out in a place called Luskan, he escaped his slavers and made his way to the Sword Coast. He fell into several guilds, where he learned the ways of rogues. Being naturally perceptive and seeming to have unnatural luck at escaping certain capture (human skill proficiency in perception and the feat lucky) he was a great at setting diversions for the guilds. He got into trouble with the law, and the guilds themselves. Naga Ken developed a reputation as a champion of the poor (lawful good alignment), he would steal from those that have more than they need even the very guilds that trained him (common tongue, sleight of hand, stealth, thieves tools proficiencies)! Somehow, by being lucky and having the aid of the countless people he helped, he always is one step ahead of everybody (city secrets feature). He gives everything to the needy, especially orphanages.
So he begins his adventuring life on the city streets, with common robes, a bamboo staff, a pouch with 2 gold coins, his amulet, and 10 make shift shurikens (darts). He has bronze skin, less than 3% body fat, stands 5'6", and 150 lbs.. Hair is black, eyes are brown. He has many scars. As a 19 year old man he begins with the following abilities (I rolled these with the 4d6 method and used the variant human trait rules as per my DMs approval) DEX and WIS 18s. CHA and INT 9s. STR 12. CON 13. As a street urchin who feels constantly threatened (ninjas, slavers, pirates, rogues, thugs, guards, bounty hunters...) he has developed great insight as to peoples intentions (insight proficiency). I chose the following traits, bonds, flaws, and ideals based on his alignment and the traumatic events of his life.
- I sleep with my back to a wall or a tree, with everything I own wrapped in a bundle in my arms.
- I ask a lot of questions.
- All people. rich or poor, deserve respect.
- I sponsor orphanages to keep others from enduring what I was forced to endure.
- I will never fully trust anyone other than myself.
His journey towards self discovery has already been a long one, but all he has learned about his past is that one of the main religions in all of the vast continent of Kara-Tur is The Path of the Enlightened. He has discovered that his family may have worshiped this forbidden religion in secret. They may have believed him to be the prophesied Chosen One who is said to bring freedom of religion to the dynasty of the Shou. They may have found out about this, and set out to murder everyone he has known. He spends much time meditating and practicing his training from when he was a kid, and he senses that there is a meaning for this non-magical amulet. He often has clear vision (like Kane from Kung Fu) that remind him of his path. Since his training can never be completed, he has decided to blaze a new trail. Finding his own unique path as a monk. Game mechanics wise, he will eventually follow the path of the open hand except that I will rename those features so as to make it my own. he has invented his own secret alphabet that only he can understand, with which he aims to ink the art of his martial arts practice. When he meets the parties dwarf cleric, he will ask him to teach him how to meditate to reach the divine voice he feels he was born to know. Or empty his mind so it may find him. At level 2 he will take one level of cleric, with the light domain. Then it's all monk from there on out. The amulet, he will learn to be a way to focus on spells.
I have always liked monks, but until now they could not stand on their own without a lot of unrealistic multiclassing or other forms of aid. They used to be too weak in the beginning and then too powerful towards the end. 4e kind of got them balanced but in 5e they are a viable combatant at every level. A pure single class monk is a great character except for one major annoyance. Their end game "feature" doesn't satisfy me in the slightest. 4 ki at the beginning of your round if you start it with 0. It's useful I guess but by then you have a daily pool of 20 ki and the most taxing thing between two of the paths costs only 3 ki. The elemental monk really needs that ki boost but they need it way before level 20. I love the concept of elemental monks, but the spell selection is weak, at end game you get like 5 things, they are costly to use, and not all that awesome. So I decided to forget about level 20 and select one level of another class. Here is what I came up with.
Naga Ken (dragon fist) was born and raised in the Shou Dynasty (speaks Shou Common Tongue) of Kara-Tur. The Shou only worship the Celestial Bureaucracy, all other religious beliefs are forbidden. At age 6 his parents brought him to the monastery of Master Xan Lung, a wise man with mighty powers. High in the mountains he and other gifted children endured hardships that tested the very essence of their humanity (the foundation for level one monk abilities, acrobatics proficiency). Naga Ken showed exceptional promise and was favored by Master Xan. Sometimes during meditation Naga Ken would have shadowy visions of his family, their voice distant and not always clear. And their faces and bodies always cast in shadow. Sometimes he would be playing with his two brothers and 2 sisters. Other times he would be learning about natural medicine and how to make cures (herbalism kit proficiency). Sometimes his father would teach him the ancient practice of calligraphy (proficiency with the artisan supplies needed), his father would be very strict and emphasize the importance of this. Naga Ken does not know them, only through these troubling visions. Master Xan would not help him understand, only offering cryptic advice and preaching patience. At age 12 a nightmare played out in front of him. Shadows moved in and out of sight, his brothers and teachers slaughtered, the monastery burned to the ground. Master Xan defended Naga Ken and rescued him. They made their way to the docks and Xan arranged to have Naga Ken smuggled far away to a new world. He handed him a cloth, looked him in the eyes, and said, "Fulfill your destiny.". In the cloth was an amulet, with a detailed image of the sun. He kept is secret and safe.
The voyage was brutal, the crew was not nice. Naga Ken was beaten and starved, he endured many near fatal illnesses. After two agonizing years he was sold into slavery, in a world that was very alien to him. Over the next 5 years Naga Ken has moved from town to town, facing many dangers and learning skills (street urchin background) as he recovered his strength and grew into a man. Starting out in a place called Luskan, he escaped his slavers and made his way to the Sword Coast. He fell into several guilds, where he learned the ways of rogues. Being naturally perceptive and seeming to have unnatural luck at escaping certain capture (human skill proficiency in perception and the feat lucky) he was a great at setting diversions for the guilds. He got into trouble with the law, and the guilds themselves. Naga Ken developed a reputation as a champion of the poor (lawful good alignment), he would steal from those that have more than they need even the very guilds that trained him (common tongue, sleight of hand, stealth, thieves tools proficiencies)! Somehow, by being lucky and having the aid of the countless people he helped, he always is one step ahead of everybody (city secrets feature). He gives everything to the needy, especially orphanages.
So he begins his adventuring life on the city streets, with common robes, a bamboo staff, a pouch with 2 gold coins, his amulet, and 10 make shift shurikens (darts). He has bronze skin, less than 3% body fat, stands 5'6", and 150 lbs.. Hair is black, eyes are brown. He has many scars. As a 19 year old man he begins with the following abilities (I rolled these with the 4d6 method and used the variant human trait rules as per my DMs approval) DEX and WIS 18s. CHA and INT 9s. STR 12. CON 13. As a street urchin who feels constantly threatened (ninjas, slavers, pirates, rogues, thugs, guards, bounty hunters...) he has developed great insight as to peoples intentions (insight proficiency). I chose the following traits, bonds, flaws, and ideals based on his alignment and the traumatic events of his life.
- I sleep with my back to a wall or a tree, with everything I own wrapped in a bundle in my arms.
- I ask a lot of questions.
- All people. rich or poor, deserve respect.
- I sponsor orphanages to keep others from enduring what I was forced to endure.
- I will never fully trust anyone other than myself.
His journey towards self discovery has already been a long one, but all he has learned about his past is that one of the main religions in all of the vast continent of Kara-Tur is The Path of the Enlightened. He has discovered that his family may have worshiped this forbidden religion in secret. They may have believed him to be the prophesied Chosen One who is said to bring freedom of religion to the dynasty of the Shou. They may have found out about this, and set out to murder everyone he has known. He spends much time meditating and practicing his training from when he was a kid, and he senses that there is a meaning for this non-magical amulet. He often has clear vision (like Kane from Kung Fu) that remind him of his path. Since his training can never be completed, he has decided to blaze a new trail. Finding his own unique path as a monk. Game mechanics wise, he will eventually follow the path of the open hand except that I will rename those features so as to make it my own. he has invented his own secret alphabet that only he can understand, with which he aims to ink the art of his martial arts practice. When he meets the parties dwarf cleric, he will ask him to teach him how to meditate to reach the divine voice he feels he was born to know. Or empty his mind so it may find him. At level 2 he will take one level of cleric, with the light domain. Then it's all monk from there on out. The amulet, he will learn to be a way to focus on spells.
7
Comments
For a level 1 monk, I would say even 7% would be extremely skinny. Under 3% at 150lbs would be closer to 17 str in DnD, and likely very high constitution if it is going to be maintained for more than a couple days. Not many body builders get much below 10%, and thats with extremely strict diet and considerable excercise. Most atheletes are quite a bit less lean than that, unless they're competeing in a weight category based sport... For 13 str and 12 cons, and extremely skinny at that height range, aim more for 120lbs. 120lbs lean mass for that height, assuming high activity level, would be pretty impressive strength-wise, IE what you're probably looking for.
Also nitpicking again... Monks were pretty decent in 3.5, though you might want some expansion feats/options. Core 3.0 monks were pretty puny though I agree, even at high levels they were easy to surpass... only real feature was their exceptional mobility, their damage was easy for a warrior to top. 3.5 though had more tools to work with, even core, so I think they were at least viable party members if you used them well.
Less nitpicky, more Idea-ey: Do 5th ed monks have big synergy with thrown weapons like they did in 3.5? You're rocking high dexterity, which suggests you consider a ranged weapon, and I assume you have some mobility options like climbing/jumping? In 3.5, the worst way to use a monk was up close at low levels, an orc could drop you in one crit, so unless you somehow had really high stats in eveything but Cha and Int, hand to hand was a bad, bad idea until you leveled up a bit. If you had access to Zen Archery, ranged monks became VERY versatile actually, able to rely on str and wis and leave dex relatively low (probably 13 for prereqs).
Monks are a cool DnD build though IMO, tons of great imagery/very cinematic fighters. I loved the 5 level Shou Disciple prestige class in 3rd a ton, it was a Lite Monk, no supernatural abilities, just butt kicking ability. Huge rule of cool, being able to fight unarmed, and very good if your DM is fond of restricting where a character carry weapons, IE no open carry of weapons in cities (and concealed could get you in trouble likely too, other than a dagger). Tattooed Monks were very cool too, not exactly powerhouses, but just so damn cool. Other monk prestige classes varied, but Tattooed was the coolest.
So, good luck, looking forward to more stuff as you go.
While there's nothing wrong with having a class based on eastern mythology, it's not generic enough to fit into any setting other than an Oriental one, which is why I don't like having it in the core rules. There's no Polish Hussar, Roman Legionaire, Greek Hoplite, or Byzantine Horse Archer class, so why should there be a Chinese Boxer class?
Just my opinion.
When I dip into that level of light domain cleric, I will get the following things:
Cantrips:
Light-sure, nuff said
Thaumaturgy- can make his eyes turn into glowing light
Spare the Dying - auto stabilize dying friend
Sacred Flame - 1d8 range light bolt dex save for no damage
I can cast those all day long, forever
1st level:
healing word 1d4+4 60' range bonus action
cure wounds 1d8 +4 touch action
shield of faith +2 ac, must concentrate on it, total 2nd level monk ac of 20!
sanctuary all must save to even attack him
guiding bolt awesome light bolt attacks at +6 does 4d6 and gives next attacker at the target advantage! no saves!
I can cast any of those 5 spells up to 5/day or substitute one of them with the following domain spells
burning hands 3d6 cone attack with dex save
faerie fire the best 1st level spell from the druid class! can give advantage to hit all enemies in a 20 radius and ruins hiding and invisibility!
best of all is Warding Flare. 4/day as a reaction to somebody trying to attack me, I can blind them with a flash of light and put their attack at a disadvantage
amulet is used in place of material components.
i also learn ritual casting, light/medium armor and shields. I will try and parlay with my DM to learn something else in exchange for not taking the time needed to learn those 4 things. Cause none of them interest me. So maybe I can get a free feat or skill out of the deal.
All of that for one level of cleric, and the downside:
Monk progress is slightly hindered.
Monk end game level is 19, so I wont get the level 20 feature Perfect Self which is dumb anyways.
@Squire monks are widely known as itinerants, and Faerun has Shou expats depending on your region as a major population group. I think SOME interpretations of monks are harder to work into a 'western setting', but there isn't really a good reason unarmed combat couldn't develop in an otherwise 'western setting'. Not all unarmed combat specialists are Chinese Boxers... for one, Greece had Pankratiasts, who fought with very few rules, much less than UFC today. Greeks also had Greek Boxers, though Greek Boxing is not very translatable into actual combat, but their Wrestling would be.
As for those other builds, there actually ARE rules for similar stuff... Roman Legionnaires would be fighters using a heavy shield as their primary weapon and a short sword as their off-hand, and there are feats to support the build. Its quite sturdy in 3.5 if you are in a low magic campaign. Horse archer prestige classes abound actually, and in Thieves' World there were both Legionnaire and Sacred Bander prestige classes (Sacred Banders are Greek ultra-elite hoplites, the stuff was lifted from history/mythology for the fantasy series).
@Lateralus I've been quite skinny, having gone from a massive ++350lbs down eventually to under 180lbs, with a very bulky bone structure. I'm about 6'2, but usually wear size 15 D or E shoes, and am a relatively slim 250lbs now. Probably around 20%, no longer rocking the proper 6 pack, but still have lots of defintion kicking around, despite floppy skin. I'd probably look pretty impressive if I had any skin elasticity, but I chose to ignore the heaps of stretch marks I had by 13 yo, and kept getting bigger. I do yoga and general farm labour atm, and eat overly healthy. That aside though, 3% is not something people can maintain long term without heavy drug use, and even then, you start metabolizing muscle mass for water if nothing else. :S
While it would't prove they don't exist, I don't know of any hockey players but Rod Brind'Amour who would have been even close to 4% Body Fat at any point in time (the difference between say 4 and 8% remember is a doubling, meaning it sounds small, but is actually a huge change), even a star (that I am not overly fond of...) like Ovetchkin is not particularly lean. Hockey players usually need some fat to supply water and energy during games, as they are burning insane calories, especially goalies. Also, they desperately need SOME cushioning for organs, hockey has insanely hard hits. Same reason very few football players would play a game below 10%, and many are closer to 15%. You can definitely be in incredible shape at 15% bodyfat, and most people around 5% are limited to doing body weight exercise. The easiest way to get better at chinups, pushups and even squats is to lose weight while doing them.
Anways, people in hollywood cheat often. Its not a secret that growth hormone and steroids are used, both help both build muscle while minimizing fat, and both importantly allow you to eat CONSIDERABLY more calories while not gaining much fat, IE you can be lean and still exercise, something very hard for the majority of people not on drugs. Heck, just keeping your hydration if you go below 5% is a continuous chore.
Oh, and endurance are a function of strength and constitution... strength determines how hard you have to work, constitution determines how long you can work hard, so both have an effect on endurance. Mystic abilities can play a role later I agree.
REGARDLESS! my views on the health levels of your Monk need not dominate the thread.
Also the Monk as presented in DnD is not just an Oriental/Chinese Boxer. That's a Fighter with no armor and using fists.
The Monk is a spiritual practicioner of martial arts and mystical techniques that he uses to improve both his body and mind.
He's not a brawler that just punches stuff.
Also here's why those "classes" you listed are not included. Because most people don't give a crap about them and they are too generic and boring, compared to others.
Those are basically Fighters in different armors and using different weapons in different times. Nothing unique or special.
It's why the Tieflings and Drow are now Core races in 5E and the Warlock is also a Core class. Because people like them and are popular.
I should also say that Monks existed since ADnD 1E, Ilmater and some other gods have Monk levels and there are Monasteries to them throughout Faerun. Even in the Underdark, Dark Moon Monks of Shar.
Hell, even the Githyanki have an ancient tradition of martial arts and many of them are monks and have monasteries in the Astral Realm.
Toril is not medieval Europe. Never was, never will be.
Anyways there were some questions about 5e monks? Well it's worth mentioning that they can use finesse now, with all monk weapons. No they cant really fling a lot of ranged darts and stuff but in melee they are not healer sponges anymore.
At first level my monk has an 18 ac, 9 hp, and does 1d8+4 as an attack and may use a bonus action to make a unarmed attack at 1d4+4. I can use the quartstaff as a finesse weapons and as a 2-handed weapon to get a 1d8 damage output until my fists catch up around level 12ish. A lot is very different from 5e but the rules are so stripped down and perfectly thought out that it feels like the very first edition of the game. It just has a simple flow to it, not cluttered with so many variables.
Fighters are still the kings of melee. but at level 2 monks get to start spending ki points and things start to open up for them. im not gonna type out the entire rule book browse it yourself and see if you like it. Im not a salesman but if it sucked you have my word I would tell you.
The one level of light domain cleric class corrected the two things about the monk class that really disappointed me. The ONLY two things, actually. The end game feature Perfect Self is just...meh. If you're in a gauntlet of just difficult fights one after the other and you've been fighting for like 8 imaginary hours without even a short rest well yeah, you would totally wish you could regenerate ki! But smart players like me, know how to manage these sorts of things. 19 or 20 ki points, thats enough. Monks are good enough without spending ki energy that they can contribute a lot. So use ki when you want to change the course of a fight thats going badly, not all the time. And then meditate and get it all back, not that tough to manage. The other annoyance was the lack of REACTION skills. Cause Monks are nothing if not catlike. They are loaded with bonus actions that are VERY effective, and regular actions are fine as well. Deflect missles and slow fall are the only reaction features, they are both awesome, but not enough. The cleric level gives me a ton of options in a fight, I'm actually a better healer than our main cleric until he catches up to my great wis score. So hes free to use combat spells and buffs. But most importantly the Glare ability that is 4/day defensive reaction. I mean that is better than pretty much any fighter defensive feat there is!
Game is 3 hours, I feel like a zit face kid again.
In 3rd ed, you could take Weapon Finesse at lvl 3 with a monk, when they get their first feat. It required +1 BAB iirc, so you couldn't take it at lvl 1 I think. Could be wrong, it's been awhile since I was looking at the text for PHB feats. As such, with usually great dexterity, a monk was well used throwing sais, daggers or shuriken. You usually did a tad less damage, but could outperform most archers at skirmishing, especially if they wear heavy armour. A Barbarian skirmisher was probably a better 1st level character, but his AC won't be as good if you have great stats.
Anyways, regarding 5e, that sounds interesting. I've read through all the free info of the basic rules ages ago, and I was impressed by how reminiscent of oldschool pickup and play D&D it was, where character construction took a few minutes. 3rd Ed could take a few minutes if everyone already knew exactly what they wanted, but the odds of that were low, it usually ate up most of the first session unless people bring pre-generated characters. Not all DMs are cool with that though. The 5e monk sounds like a cross between the 3e Monk and Ninja classes, which is an interesting twist. In 3rd, monks had an edge over Ninjas in their mobility as they had no limited use stuff, but Ninjas had Sudden Strike (...because 3e needed Sudden Strike, Sneak Attack, etc which all do very similar things. Loved the balance of the system, and the versatility, but God was it complex after you got a few dozen books) to open things up.
You say that it can be any unarmed combat specialist, but every single time I've seen one, the player has made the character Chinese, or had him trained in the setting's equivalent to China, because it seems so much harder to separate its abilities from its Oriental roots. Strangely, although the same could technically be said for both the druid and the bard (both are from Celtic/Cymric mythology), people are more readily able to give those classes a blank history on which to create their own character. I've never once seen a bard or druid with an Irish/Welsh name.
@Archaos That's my point, though. The others can be created - or closely approximated - using standard classes and feats. You could easily create an unarmed combat specialist by giving a fighter improved unarmed combat, improved disarm and improved trip, but then he wouldn't have his special magical attacks, and it seems to be those that make the monk popular. Get rid of the ki related abilities like stunning fist, empty body, quivering palm, etc, and I'd have less of a problem with it.
Also, I'm aware that Toril isn't medieval Europe (if anything, it's late-renaissance Europe), and that there are other continents, but they tend to be separate settings to Faerûn. There is actually an Oriental Adventures book which deals with Kara Tur/Rogukan etc, so why not keep the Oriental classes in that book, and make the monk itself more generic?
The biggest problem that I have with the monk class, though, is that it's on a par with the heavy armour/heavy weapon using classes. Punch a guy wearing a cuirass and all you'll do is hurt your fist, no matter how Chinese your name is. But this is always going to be an issue with the D&D core mechanics.
But again, this is just my opinion, I realise that other people may not share that opinion, and that's fine.
Going back to 1st edition (ancient history!) there were 4 core classes - fighter, cleric, magic user (not mage!) and thief. Each came with specialist variants, for fighter the ranger and paladin, for Cleric the druid, for magic user the illusionist, and for thief the assassin. Much more than kits on steroids, these took the starting template and almost totally recreated the class. Druids and illusionists had completely different spell lists, illusionists had a completely different spell progression to magic users, topping out at level 7 spells. Then there were a couple of advanced optional classes, most prominent was the monk. (The other was the bard, but that was a really strange fighter/thief/druid combo). Why is monk a distinct class, rather than another variation on a theme?
I think it comes down to the source driving the character, and this does lean East for its inspiration. The monk falls somewhere between the fighter and cleric, someone who gives themselves over entirely to philosophical advancement of the human. That philosophic devotion is generally associated with religion and the gods, and is the source of mystical powers, but does not manifest as the ability to work miracles (like a cleric) as the focus is on the attainment of better understanding of self, and attainment of the perfect form. So as a game mechanic, you get a set of powers that focus on enhancing the performance of the character, and the character themself is then the agent to change the world. Why is there a fighter component to this? The most common trope is that the monks devote themselves to physical training, often applied as a martial art. But just as there are variants on the fighter/cleric/MU/thief themes, it would be easy to imagine variants on the monk theme focusing more on the spiritual voyage of self-discovery, trading martial prowess for a wider range of abilities.
There is nothing in this design that feels like it must be tied to an Eastern-derived human character, indeed I would say restricting monks to Human in a multi-race fantasy setting was an early mistake of the game 0 but we have learned a lot since then.
If I were to look for a similar inspiration for a missing character specialization, I would not be looking to Western Europe, as our tropes were already well modeled in the fantasy literature that gave rise to the early rules - hence the paladin, the ranger, etc. No, I would look further West and wonder where the equivalent character is for a shaman, who takes another approach to explaining the world and bridging the divide between mortal and spirit worlds. Similarly, if I look to Australia I think I would find an even more distinct inspiration, and have even less awareness of polynesian culture and what might be found there.
The problem is not the existence of the monk, but the lack of follow through on further variations in theme. And this is even before we start creating entirely new mythos specific classes, like psionics, or race-specific classes (dwarves really should have some miner theme going, halfling chefs maybe, definitely gnomish tinkers, and no end of possibilities for elves given their popular appeal to do anything 'better').
I learned that it's tough trying to be lawful good because I cant do that things I want to do! Like, after we killed some goblins I ripped out two of their femur bones to make femur-chuks! Also hollow out holes so they make awesome wind sounds when I work them! But nooooo apparently thats not acceptable behavior so I changed my alignment to neutral good. Still no femur chuks but I am more in line with the parties somewhat savage nature.
1) Exactly, that's what makes the Monk special, unique and fun to play. Using different abilities than "spells" to do what he does. It's part of the coolness of playing and RPing a Monk.
It's the same reason people liked the Warlock in 3.5E. Because you weren't using spells. But instead got into a pact or heritage with some fiend/fey/whatever and you got unlimited blasts that had dark themes and names (The Dead Walk = Animate Dead, Walk Unseen = Invisibility, Fell Flight = Fly, Word of Changing = Baleful Polymorph etc etc).
Flavor is everything and the Monk has tons of it.
2) Nope, Toril isn't late-renaissance Europe either.
Chessenta is based on Ancient Greece.
Kara-Tur is both Feudal Japan and Ancient China.
Mulhorand is Ancient Egypt.
Lantan is steampunkish with flying ships.
The North (Icewind Dale/Spine of the World) is probably Norse Viking era. Complete with Frost Giants.
Chult has freaking dinosaurs.
There are some more influences. But all those are part of Toril, the world. Faerun is more like late-Renaissance Europe but it's not cut off from the rest of the world.
You may very well see a Samurai going to Lantan to fly with a steam-powered airship and fight off dinosaurs in Chult and use them to fight Frost Giants in the North.
Highly improbable but possible.
3) Also if you try to slash someone with a Longsword or Katana wearing Full Plate, there's no way you will ever damage them unless you try piercing them (not that effective). It's why morning stars and flails were used or arrows.
And if you send a bear (Druid) to bite and scratch someone in Full Plate again, there's no way the bear will ever hit him.
Why people accept the above but the Monk is suddenly too unrealistic? Do people really need to read "because magic" to accept it?
Meanwhile, the Bard makes magic with singing, the Sorcerer throws fireballs "because dragon/whatever blood/heritage", the Druid turns into animals "because nature", the Shadowdancer disappears in plain sight because "shadow magic stuff" and the Psion can blast you away because "power of the mind".
Saying that there's no way to hurt a guy in armor with fists is like saying that you can never damage someone with your mind no matter how much you squint (Psion).
You can't do that in real life, but DnD was never realistic.
I understand that people might not like the Monk because of their own reasons but it was part of ADnD 1E and Forgotten Realms since almost the beginning.
Saying that it doesn't fit into the world is wrong, plain and simple. Because the world (Toril in this case) fully supports them with deities, monasteries, continents and lore.
TL;DR: The monk can punch dragons because mystical inner magic and training. Problem solved.
Thing is, I've seen the argument that "Monks are unrealistic and don't fit into DnD" a bit too many times. Either on forums, PnP sessions or Facebook (DnD groups).
And that is simply not true. Monks were almost always supported in DnD and Forgotten Realms as well as other settings.
I also liked that in 4E, Monks do what they do because of their Psionic Source. Mind over body in sort.
This was supported from older editions since the Gith (Githzerai and Githyanki) use Psionics and Githzerai are often monks.
Like I said, he is as believable and realistic as doing magic with music, with your mind or turning into animals.
Even in my current PnP Pathfinder campaign, I've seen this type of behavior from the DM.
I'm fine if a custom world has no Monks or whatever but if we're talking about FR, there's no argument.
With regards to defending, the premise of the monk (well mine anyways, can't speak for every players style) is that they simply do not get hit. My character design is built around defense. 18 DEX means he is elusive, he slips under sword swings and keeps his enemies off balance. 18 WIS means he is insightful, and anticipates actions based on subtle indications of body movement made by his enemies. He always appears to be one step ahead of his foes and doing things they did not anticipate. I also took the LUCKY feat which allows me to re-roll any d20 roll made against me or for me. I save those to avoid being crited. So when I do get hit and take damage it's a big deal, and hopefully a rare event (only took 3hp all of 1st level). Now my buddy Floki the barbarian got hit a ton and should have died a ton.
I kind of forgot the point I was trying to make lol. I think we can all agree that actually hitting somebody in heavy armor is rather easy to do. They are big, shiny, and slow. If I had a say in the development of 5e I would have petitioned the traditional armor class stat to be called defensive prowess. And this number would typically be lower for people using heavy armor and higher for people with light or no armor. Now actually taking damage, that's another story. Monks, rogues, and other lightly encumbered agile characters would get hit the least but get hurt the most when they do get hit. Fighter, paladins, and other heavily encumbered characters would get hit a lot, I mean if they have a tower shield it would get hit most of the time from head on, but a lot of hits wouldn't even hurt them! Crits would work way different to.
Here's how it would work:
My monk has a DP of 18, all from a base of 10, and his WIS and DEX modifiers and he is totally unencumbered. That much stays the same. A modified attack roll of 19 or higher hits. Here's where your mind gets blown. If the modified attack roll hits at 19-23 (1 to 5 above the DP score) he takes normal damage. If it hits at 24-28 (5 to 10 above the DP) he takes double damage, and if it hits at 29 or higher (11 or more above the targets DP) he takes triple damage. NAT20's are still always success, even if you have no hope of hitting. But that doesn't mean you get double damage every time.
Now, people wearing armor are less maneuverable, so they incur penalties. Let's take a fighter with an 18 DEX and some plate mail and a lot of equipment encumbrance. The armor DEX modifier in 5e is not allowed in plate, so he gains no DP bonus at all so all he gets is his base DP of 10. There would be a new rule that governs the effects of encumbrance. Let's say his encumbrance score is a -4, that means his total defensive prowess is a 6. So he can be hit on a score of 6 or higher. But here's the good news. Armor has an actual ARMOR CLASS! The AC of plate would be 10. Which means any modified attack roll of 6 to 15 does zero damage to the fighter. And the next 10 point range does only half damage. So a modified attack roll of 16-25 would do half damage. 26 or greater would do normal damage. People in heavy armor are immune to double and triple damage.
Are you with me so far?
I liked and tried but can not go far with monk in neverwinternights.Hope monk unarmed is become much powerful in the future.
See who kills the most enemies first.
In NwN2 the Monk is actually improved and is pretty strong as well. It's just that the best robes in the game, Robes of the Dark Moon were nerfed. Those gave you permanent Haste.
There's also the Sacred Fist PrC in NwN2 which combines the Cleric with Monk and you have an engine of destruction with stuff like Extended Divine Power on a Monk, buffing and punching stuff.
Here are the two main problems with Monks in 3.5E:
They don't fill any role. They are not tanks or thieves or healers or casters. They just run and punch stuff.
Part of the fun is using different items and weapons or armors. Monks just run and punch stuff.
At least in the games, they get special gloves, robes or boots especially for them.
The only reason that I can think of for D&D's AC system is that it's simple, and makes combat faster and easier. If people want that then that's fine - after all, since D&D is the most popular and well known RPG system out there, who am I to argue? It might not work for me, but clearly it works for a lot of people.
Anyway, we are kind of going off on a tangent here...honestly, I'm not trying to argue my point, or convince anybody of anything. I'm just stating my personal reasons for not liking the monk class; I simply don't feel that it's generic enough to be anything other than Oriental, or possessed of Oriental training. Ha, true, actually! They were a sub-class of rogue in 3.5e (sort of) but I don't think they get much in the way of thieving abilities. Although with enough buffs, they can become front-liners (sorry but I still refuse to use the term "tank" to refer to anything other than a tracked vehicle
Don't fill a role?!?
That's OLD Dnd mentality. With the street urchin background I have proficiency with theives tools, sleight of hand, and stealth. I am the parties thief/cleric/ and it's best fighter! Mostly because Wayne put a 17 into INT for his barbarian and a 14 into CON. Don't ask...Naga Ken more than holds his own in melee and range and his high WIS (perception) makes him better than most rogues. He found 3 traps and blew up an ambush before we were surprised. No role? The parties best rogue, cleric, and fighter?!?
Up until that point, they were a gimped Ranger that didn't fit anywhere.
@Squire My usual "perfect" party is with a Barbarian/Fighter or Paladin to tank (absorb damage with it's AC, DR and HP.)
A Rogue that handles traps, tons of skills and does ton of damage with sneak attack.
A Cleric for secondary tanking and main buffing/healing.
A Wizard, Sorcerer or both for arcane damage.
A Bard to buff and fill the gaps.
And a Druid for scouting, survival skills and doing a bit of everything great.
A Monk would perhaps take the spot of that 5th person after all the roles are filled but a Druid or Ranger would be far better with the scouting and survival skills.
A ranger is not as good a scout as a Monk in many situations, as the Monk has far better mobility. Eventually he can climb faster than a ranger can hustle. Stunning Attacks are awesome for a scout, and both have Hide/MS as class skills. The Monk may even have better AC than a Ranger.
Getting struck while wearing a sheet metal chest-protector doesn't sound like a good time to me. You probably won't be dying from it, but it would not be pleasant if a hard striker can get a hit on armour. I agree it wouldn't feel great for the puncher/kicker either, but striking a shield would be much worse I'd wager. We've all seen people break concrete blocks before, right? Concrete is very hard, and its abrasive, I'd rather punch sheet metal over soft tissue. Well, I'd actually not punch anything, because punching things is really stupid.
Unless, of course, you're wearing fantasy style boob armour, which is typically worn without a jack, and is just a sheet of metal worn against naked flesh.
The Monk just runs faster. They get less skill points, no spells, no Hide in Plain Sight. And if they need to, Rangers can use bows for better damage than Shurikens.
It should be noted, that the Monk is a medium BAB class. While the Ranger is full BAB, with more skills, spells, companion and favored enemies.
Of course, then comes the Druid and destroys both in everything, first by turning into a cat or bird or dog and doing better scouting than everyone and if discovered, they turn into some massive animal, summons more animals and rips faces off.
For that 5th party member, my choices would be Druid > Ranger > Monk.
And/or a Bard for 6th.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the concept of the Monk. It's just that in 3E it was not executed well, at all.
In Pathfinder and later DnD editions they rock, of course.
And they're more than "I just punch stuff."
A lot of my fellow gamers think I'm hung up on min max, but here's the truth. I want to become a character that I really like, the character concept is first and foremost. I find it impossible to get into that character if I am dead and watching everybody else play for 3+ hours. Trust me, I have been there before! So for me, it's a give and take between survivability and concept. I think I do a great job of balancing that.
Also, it's far more annoying for a DM to try and soften encounters to keep deliberately gimped characters from dieing all the time.
I agree though that if you aren't wearing ANY padding, you're likely to get injured by your own armour.
@Archaos You know Survival is a wisdom-based skill, right? Most monks have much higher wisdom than a ranger, for whom it is usually a dump-stat. The only worse Ranger stat is probably intelligence, though not many would want a really low intelligence, as they will get less skill points, which would make a fighter better. I suppose if you never use Animal Empathy Charisma is worthless though, so maybe 3rd worthless, if I'm generous. Monks can take survival as a cross class skill if they wish to TRACK (which is assuredly not part of scouting proper, seeing as most people would say the rogue is the ultimate scout. We will ignore the idiotic scout class, which always angries up my blood).
Shuriken are not usually bothered with in 3.5. In 3.0, you could get INSANE apr with them, since you could toss 3 per attack, meaning 3 chances to poison mostly. Which did actually work really well, as long as an enemy wasn't immune to poison. Anyways, Most monks throw sais, which are a monk weapon that can be thrown. If they take Shot on the Run, they can do some pretty funny stuff with their incredible mobility, same with Spring Attack. Spring Attack with Monk speed = doesn't need HiPS or Camouflage. He's fast enough to book it around a corner/behind a rock if he wants. HiPS is a VERY high level ability anyways for a Ranger, and Monks get their own cool abilities that help a scout.
Rangers have higher BAB as I also noted, but Monks get 3 apr at their full attack bonus, which is probably going to mean more hits. Each hit will likely to do as much damage as a ranger using Power Attack would anyways, and most rangers either DW light weapons or rely on their archery, meaning the Ranger will be unlikely to use PA in battle. If they go two-handed, they probably went archery, meaning they'll likely need Quick Draw... long story short, Rangers are a BIT tight on feats, meaning they are unlikely to have much of an edge vs a monk in terms of damage per round, due to the much better APR of the monk AND his access to Stunning Attack.
None of the animal forms of a Druid can move as fast as a Monk iirc, MAYBE a birdthat has no real combat abilities. The Monk will have vastly better AC than a shapeshifted druid, WAY more attacks, and most likely do more damage. If you can use an Elephant form, you might have an edge for damage per hit, but the monk will have many more attacks, and can stun. Wildshape is not that great of a combat strategy most of the time, due to HD restrictions. Animals you should note have very low CRs, especially compared to HD.
Monks in 3.5 are a very good addition to a party, but at low levels (IE levels 1-4) they can't melee for **** unless they rolled REAL good, but they can use ranged combat then, and start using melee as a primary strategy after they've boosted their skills a bit. They can achieve very good AC values at higher levels, FAR higher than most rangers will. I've made some weird Blackguard multi-class builds that had crazy AC, but a Monk can achieve excellent defenses without being a huge munchkin, which most would agree is 'cool'.
Rangers in 3.5 are very good, don't get me wrong. They're just not meant to be used as a Fighter or Barbarian, and are very unlikely to survive long if you use them wrong, due to light armour and a smaller hit die.
It's pretty funny, but I'm a big fan of mixing Ranger and Monk a bit, as the idea of a super-fast indestructible tracker that can kill you with his bare hands is somehow interesting. The Ranger levels can give some archery feats to supplement the decent melee abilities too, and neither wears heavy armour.
@Lateralus Keep us posted! btw, you could take Sleight of Hand as a Paladin, it's just cross-class. Paladin/Rogue is a decent multi actually, Sneak Attack helps offset the lower damage of a Paladin, and the extra skills can give them more options, but more than 3 levels of Rogue will probably be diluting Paladin something fierce, and Paladins can't multi-class freely in 3.5, so most would start Rogue then go Paladin.
(Basically, I see the monk as potentially having an extra edge on social skills, and the idea of the urban environment as a parkour playground is most appealing. Rangers with their animal companions, survival skills and the rest feel more at home in the great outdoors, although creative minds will excel in any environment - e.g., rat as the animal companion is great for urban scouting...)
Monks wouldn't have too high Wis because they need either STR or DEX to attack.
They would usually have 14-16 WIS.
This is about the same a Ranger would have. Max 14 most likely. Why? Spells. They need 14 WIS to be able to cast all their spells.
They also need it for Spot, Listen and Survival.
What Rangers would dump is CHA. Not WIS.
Rangers get Survival as a class skill, yes a Monk could take it as a cross-class and would suck at it. It would always be lower if not half and have to spend twice the points.
Rangers also get spells that aid in scouting. At the very least in Core, they get Owl's Wisdom, which adds +4 WIS. So that 14 WIS becomes 18.
Rangers also have Favored Enemies and get Track for free. That Favored Enemy gives +2 to certain stuff, including Survival and Spot/Listen, this bonus increases every 5 levels for even better scouting.
They get Swift Tracker which makes them even better scouts/trackers.
They also get Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight in natural terrain for superb scouting.
Did I mention spells? If you include spells from other sourcebooks, you have amazing scouting variety like stuff that increases your Hide/Move Silently or Spot/Listen or Survival even more.
Then we add the Animal Companion which assists you more with scouting if it can fly or helps you by sniffing stuff if it's a wolf for example.
About Monks. You are not going to poison anything if you don't have the feat (s) that prevent you from poisoning yourself accidently. What the Assassin gets basically.
While the APR of the Monk is good, their BAB is low. A Ranger gets Rapid Shot and Manyshot, hitting more accurately and for more damage with a Longbow, especially if it's a Composite Longbow, from a longer distance.
No matter the APRs, that 1d3 from Shuriken, pale in comparison to a Composite Longbow doing +2 + 1d8/x3 (critical) plus Favored Enemy bonuses. There's also Damage Reduction to consider.
Also to use all those attacks per round, the Monk needs to stand still. They cannot move and do a full attack.
About Druids:
-Are we seriously comparing one of the most powerful and most versatile classes in 3.5E, with one of the weakest and least versatile, the Monk?
-A Druid has INSANE variety in everything with their animal forms. They can turn into a cat or bird to scout and don't even need Hide/Move Silently.
-They are Wisdom based which makes Spot/Listen/Survival top notch and can be increased with spells.
-You want speed? Turn into some kind of horse or big cat.
Attacks per round? Dire Tiger. It can charge, grapple and hit you 5 times (2 claws, 1 bite, 2 rake if grappled) with 27 STR, in one round.
27. STR. At level 16. Doing 2d4 + 8, 2d4 + 4 and 2d6 + 4 in a single round. While you are grappled.
While having summons out for more damage, casting spells and an animal companion that does even more damage.
-You want brute strength? At level 12 you have the Dire Bear.
31 STR. Doing 2d4 + 10 x 2 claws and 2d8 + 5 with a bite. And it can also grapple like a boss.
At higher levels and with other sourcebooks, you have forms that reach 40 STR.
Like the Dire Polar Bear. http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/mainlist2.pl?name=Dire_Polar_Bear
Or T-Rex. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Tyrannosaurus
-Armor? Barkskin or special armor made for Druids they can use in Wild Shapes, in Core like Wild Armor for example.
There are also even more spells that can be used in other sourcebooks for even more AC.
In short, the Druid is a full caster, with an upgradable-buffable animal companion, that can summon dire bears and elementals, while being one and still casting away with Natural Spell.
The Monk doesn't even get close to that. At all. Just the Druid's animal companion would be able to destroy the Monk probably. Without being buffed. Suddenly, if you're grappled, you lose all that DEX AC.
And animals have ton of grapple bonuses, from size and huge STR.
Grappling is one of the best neutralizing methods.
Grapple someone, send your companion to grapple someone and send your summon to grapple someone.
Suddenly three enemies are helpless in a single round by just one person.
TL;DR: It's a well-known fact that the Monk and Druid are dimensions apart.
One can run fast and punch stuff for decent damage.
The other, can pretty much do everything: tank, dps, scout, track, fly, summon, heal, damage, grapple, buff, transport, teleport, crowd control etc.
If I had a choice between a Druid or Monk, there's no contest really.
Yup, a huge Druid fan here.