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Is Ultima VII the most influential CRPG of all-time??

jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
edited April 2015 in Off-Topic
I've recently been starting to replay this for the first time since childhood in the Exult engine. First let me say that this particular project is almost like getting an enhanced version of the game, it's a substantial piece of work that I'm very grateful exists.

Getting that out of the way, I've always viewed the birth of modern CRPG convention as taking place with the release of both Fallout and BG1. And by modern I mean a turn away from text commands, tile based dungeon crawling that required extensive mapping, and for the most part faceless adventurers. As it turns out, Ultima VII was turning things on it's head half a decade earlier.

For starters, this is the first game I can think of that really committed itself to drag and drop inventory management on a massive scale (obviously along with it's sister games the Underworld series). It's crude and kind of horrible if you don't designate certain people with certain tasks, but it's a massive leap when compared to entering commands and using the arrow keys to move a potion on your fighter to your mage.

Second, even to this day, Ultima VII has to be unmatched in actually attempting to simulate a living, breathing world. Even in games like BG, or the Elder Scrolls, games that deal on a massive scale, there are still generic NPCs with names like "noble" or "peasant" who are essentially copied and pasted to fill out the world. 90% of the people you come across in Ultima VII are unique individuals. Almost all of them have a story to tell. But it depends on who you have talked to previously, OR (and this is also done far better here than any other game I've played) what time of day it is. The day/night cycle in this game makes complete sense, (and I also love the fact that you don't know what time it is until you get your pocketwatch back). This isn't just shops not being open at night. Certain religious ceremonies only take place in the early evening. At night, people are at home asleep in their beds. In the morning, they get up and go to work.

Which brings me to my last point, in that even though this is a very cartoonish game in art style, the subject matter is some of the most thought-inducing outside of Planescape: Torment or an Obsidian game. Questions of adultery, the morality of stealing to feed your family, a religion that is essentially Calvinism, ritualistic murder, racism....and that is before you get past the opening salvo.

Granted, the combat system is complete crap, but even in that respect, it is (from what I can tell) the first game of it's kind to use any kind of automatic UI script for you and companions (horrible as it may be). And the companions themselves. A staple of everything that came after it, and not as fleshed out here, but an obvious inspiration to most titles that came down the road.

This isn't anywhere near a perfect game, but it is quite an achievement in terms of scope, ambition, and while the systems that became commonplace in the genre years later are clearly in a very rudimentary and annoying phase here, the actual world created is probably the most realistic that has ever been created for a game, even to this day. It's amazing to look back on this title in hindsight and see just how groundbreaking it really was in it's niche.

Comments

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    It's right up there near or at the top! I love this game :)
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    Another element that I forgot to mention....the expansion. Not the actual content, but the actual IDEA of an expansion pack. It has become such a given (and in many ways morphed into DLC) but at the time, the thought that you just put out a epic level story-line for your high level characters in the same engine simply wasn't done.
  • TeflonTeflon Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 515
    Above all, how many games let you make your own bread? I enjoyed cooking with the Avatar.
    Can not control much of combat was discouraging though.
    Yes I agree with you.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    I have to agree with you about combat in general. I can't even tell half the time if my companion that has a crossbow is actually bothering to use it from range or not. I did find a book in one of the houses that gives a rundown of what type of damage various weapons do (far cooler than looking it up in a manual or website). But combat is mostly setting one of the scripts, hitting the C key, and letting things just play out.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    One reason I put Ultima VI ahead of VII, (besides nostalgia), is the combat control. Blasphemy, I know. I love both games very much.
  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 3,478
    It might be worth watching the videos about Ultima 7-1 and Ultima 7-2 from Spoony's Ultima Retrospective. It sums up all those pros and cons perfectly (in a comedic way).
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    argent77 said:

    It might be worth watching the videos about Ultima 7-1 and Ultima 7-2 from Spoony's Ultima Retrospective. It sums up all those pros and cons perfectly (in a comedic way).

    Yeah, the whole series of those is pretty great, even though I haven't been a huge fan of his other stuff. His Ultima 8 and 9 videos are even better, since he also perfectly encapsulates why those game are such unmitigated disasters.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850

    argent77 said:

    It might be worth watching the videos about Ultima 7-1 and Ultima 7-2 from Spoony's Ultima Retrospective. It sums up all those pros and cons perfectly (in a comedic way).

    Yeah, the whole series of those is pretty great, even though I haven't been a huge fan of his other stuff. His Ultima 8 and 9 videos are even better, since he also perfectly encapsulates why those game are such unmitigated disasters.

    It's sad that both Might and Magic and Ultima essentially went out on such sour notes.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Avatar said:

    What's a Paladin?

    #neverforget
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited April 2015
    jackjack said:

    Avatar said:

    What's a Paladin?

    #neverforget
    Lore-wise, IX is the travesty, but at least it's playable with patches. VIII is a hot mess from every perspective. Horrible controls, a stupid story, even more pointless combat than 7, and platforming mechanics (that also had the added bonus of being nearly impossible before a patch, at a time when getting ahold of patches was like climbing Mt. Everest).

    In fact, in a genre that has plenty of gameplay and control problems, Ultima 8 easily has some of the worst controls I've ever seen in any game ever. The entire game from top to bottom is a complete and utter joke.

    I actually just looked at Ultima VII's GOG page, and in the description where they advertise the game's selling points, it highlights the game's "fluid and responsive combat mechanics". Someone in the office must have lost a bet and been forced to write that.

    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
  • BelanosBelanos Member Posts: 968
    Personally I'd have to say that Baldur's Gate 2 would be the most influential. On many review sites, it's still listed as the number one RPG, yet I don't recall ever seeing any of the Ultima games even in the top ten.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited April 2015
    Belanos said:

    Personally I'd have to say that Baldur's Gate 2 would be the most influential. On many review sites, it's still listed as the number one RPG, yet I don't recall ever seeing any of the Ultima games even in the top ten.

    I agree that BG2 is probably the BEST game (or at least in the top 5). I don't think Ultima VII is a better game than BG2, I just think it got to the core elements of what we expect from most RPGs in the modern era first. When you take Ultima VII and the two Underworld games as a block, it's hard to argue that their influence took over everything that came after. Ultima VII set the template for isometric-style games, and the Underworld games established how to create an actual world in a 3D environment. I don't think Baldur's Gate or Fallout exists as is without Ultima VII, and the Elder Scrolls certainly wouldn't exist without the influence of Underworld.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Yeah, and Ultima as a series really shares a lot of that prestige. IV and V are also widely regarded as some of the best and most influential RPGs as well.
  • Flyting_SkaldFlyting_Skald Member Posts: 11
    Just as a heads up. This game is available on the humble origin bundle going on right now

    https://www.humblebundle.com/

    Just pay more than $5 to get it. Seems like a bargain to me.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018

    Another element that I forgot to mention....the expansion. Not the actual content, but the actual IDEA of an expansion pack. It has become such a given (and in many ways morphed into DLC) but at the time, the thought that you just put out a epic level story-line for your high level characters in the same engine simply wasn't done.

    The concept of expansions has been around for a while. I don't necessarily think that it originated with Ultima VII. I remember MODs to games like Wolfenstein and Doom. While it is true that a MOD and an Expansion are different animals, they have the same genesis; that of being additional content not released with the original purchase. I think THAT more than anything is the origin of expansions and DLC.

    I would list Ultima VII in the Top 5. I would list Baldur's Gate up there as well, and Fallout 1. In terms of Influence, I think these latter two actually brought more customers in, but I don't have any facts to back that up. I just know that if you poll gamers, most will have heard of Ultima VII but more will have played BG, at least that is my sense.
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    So I've never played Ultima and saw Ultima 8 was free on origin. Remember seeing this thread but it says Ultima 7. I remember hearing one of the Ultima games was absolutely horrible. Was it 8? If so, that's a shame.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    @VAllmyr yes 8 was horrible, play 7 it's great.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    Vallmyr said:

    So I've never played Ultima and saw Ultima 8 was free on origin. Remember seeing this thread but it says Ultima 7. I remember hearing one of the Ultima games was absolutely horrible. Was it 8? If so, that's a shame.

    Well 8 is completely awful. And then 9 is one of the biggest disasters in the history of PC gaming, possibly even human existence. So avoid both like the plague.
  • proccoprocco Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 915
    Ultima III is the game I cut my RPG teeth on back in the dark ages. @Vallmyr, I highly recommend it to you since you've been digging the gold box games. It's a step or two earlier than those games but it is so much fun. Crude graphics, but really thick and addictive gameplay. It's been several years since I replayed it, but it held up really well. I've been meaning to give the other Ultima games a go at some point.
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    edited May 2015
    Belanos said:

    Personally I'd have to say that Baldur's Gate 2 would be the most influential. On many review sites, it's still listed as the number one RPG, yet I don't recall ever seeing any of the Ultima games even in the top ten.

    Agree. And there seems to be an awful lot of new games on kickstarter or steam that reference good old BG to get some points and money in their favour. Everybody want so be associated with that legend.


    BTW- there was a (successful) kickstarter for Ultima Underworld's spiritual successor recently https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/othersidegames/underworld-ascendant/

    Actually a well-ran campaign. I backed them up.
  • WilburWilbur Member Posts: 1,173
    Thanks for the tip @Southpaw I decided to back them up too.
    I finished Ultima Underworld for the first time last year. Such a great game if you get past the outdated graphics and game engine. I've been thinking about playing some other games in the Ultima series too (I've only played Underworld so far) so maybe I should give Ultima VII a try.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Just fired up a new game of Ultima VI :D
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018

    And then 9 is one of the biggest disasters in the history of PC gaming, possibly even human existence.

    Um, have you played Pool of Radiance: ruin of Myth Dranor? You'll change your opinion on 9 after you do.

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited May 2015
    @argent77 @jjstraka34 Thank you guys for introducing me to the Spoony Bard's Ultima Retrospective. I played 6, 7, Savage Empire, 7 1/2 and tried to get into 8 back in the day. Back in the early days I was intrigued when I saw the box art of Ultima Enchantress and Exodus but the graphics were just too bad for me to get into - so I played King's Quest :) I did pick up the series starting at 6 as I mentioned though and loved 6 and 7.

    Noah Antwiler's retrospective and even his Britannia Burns stuff interviews with Richard Garriott were fascinating to watch.

    Thanks!
  • WilburWilbur Member Posts: 1,173
    jackjack said:

    Just fired up a new game of Ultima VI :D

    So you reckon that's the better one between the two (6 and 7)? Would you recommend I play that first?
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Technically and interface wise, VII is superior. Both have amazing stories. VI has a special place in my heart, but I'll be playing VII after I finish.
  • WilburWilbur Member Posts: 1,173
    jackjack said:

    Technically and interface wise, VII is superior. Both have amazing stories. VI has a special place in my heart, but I'll be playing VII after I finish.

    Thanks, then I guess I'd be more inclined to start with VII. If it's great I'm sure I'll play VI sooner or later too.
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