Star Wars Philosophy According to D&D - Are the Jedi Really Druids Rather Than Pallys?

BelgarathMTH

Hi, I was just having some random thoughts about the Jedi Knights from Star Wars, as related to the D&D world, that I find interesting.

Most cross-SW/D&D fans think of the Jedi as paladins, clerics, or mage-fighters of lawful good or neutral good alignment. But, I was just thinking of a lot of quotes from the source canon that could lend weight to the idea that the Jedi are actually druids of neutral alignment.

One of their most famous quotes is "For a thousand years, the Jedi protected peace and order in the Galaxy." But, what if we substitute the word "balance" for "order"? Then it becomes, "For a thousand years, the Jedi protected peace and balance in the Galaxy."

With that substitution, a lot of other quotes, especially those from Ben Kenobi and Yoda, start to make a lot of sense as compared to D&D druid philosophy:

"You were supposed to bring Balance to the Force, not plunge it into darkness!"
"He's (your father, Darth Vader) more machine than man, now, twisted and evil!"
"Is the Darkside stronger?" "No...easier, more seductive."
"How will I know the Darkside?" "You will know...when you feel calm...centered...at peace..."

This interpretation of the Jedi Knights as druids with neutral alignment also makes more sense of Obi-Wan's actions in the films, that is: He consorts willingly with criminals and lawbreakers when it suits his mission of ensuring "balance", and he cares about rules and "laws" only when it suits his mission for "balance". All the Jedi masters are also seen to be rather ruthless in their enforcement of what they see as "the balance."

My idea, for me, also allows me to see a lot of Luke's and other Jedis' actions through a new lens. Luke prefers to enlist native, natural life for his ends (Ewoks and Wookies, for example), and also is sympathetic to an extreme to AI technology that most closely resembles humanity (Artoo and Threepio). The Jedi in general have a broadly thematic distrust towards technology and machinery, especially technology and machinery that is given social and governmental primacy, considering it "uncivilized" or "unnatural" ("...A more civilized weapon, for a more civilized time...")

So, maybe the Jedi are actually druids with neutral alignment, not paladins, clerics, or fighter-mages with "lawful", "good", or "evil" alignment. (Although, the Sith say things like "Together we can...restore ORDER to the Galaxy!", So maybe the Sith qualify as lawful or neutral evil.)

I'm interested in thoughts about this from other cross SW/D&D fans. I'd like the thread to evolve naturally to all aspects of cross SW/D&D "philosophy" if there's interest and inclination in such a discussion.

EDIT: Btw, there are some things about the druids in the various D&D games that also can be used to interpret druids as Jedi:

1) Druids get special weapon scimitar, and the Flame Blade spell. In NWN2, only druids get the Flame Weapon spell, which is very powerful. (Lightsabers?)

2) Druids' animal companions and summonses, (like especially Insect Plague) in the various computer games can play into the idea of Luke's "use" of Ewoks and animal-like artificial intelligences.

3) Druids' general aversion to attack magic fits fairly well. Call Lightning uses the natural environment, not Darkside anger like Lightning Bolt. Healing and defensive spells like Iron Skins also fit very well with Jedi "philosophy".

the_spyder

Personal opinion, but I always took them more as monks. The lore is all there. They are 'supposed' to forego any kind of close personal ties. They have 100% devotional ethic to their order. Killer unarmed combat skill. A few select 'Special' weapons. Unusually high movement and healing powers. loads of praying and an almost lotus like calm. Plus the brown robes.

If you 'had' to model them off of a D&D class, I'd go Monk/cleric or maybe even Monk/Druid. Maybe Monk/wizard I suppose.

Sith on the other hand....

dunbar

Surely substituting "balance" for "order" changes the whole meaning of the statement?
To me 'balance' means that different philosophies can co-exist harmoniously, whereas 'order' is when one philosophy is implemented over all others for the good (or not) of all. A totalitarian dictatorship for example is very 'ordered'.
My interpretation of 'balanced' is heavily influenced by the concept that one cannot truly appreciate the good things in life until you have experienced some of the bad. In other words, Good needs Evil to exist in order for the concept of 'good' to have any meaning.
As @the_spyder said, I see Jedi as 'good' monks and the Sith as 'evil' monks. However I see each of them as trying to impose their own form of 'order' on the Galaxy - they are after all referred to as religious "orders".

Kamigoroshi

Paladins? Druids? Monks? Did I miss something here?
I always was under the impression that it was clear as day that Jedi were the closest to Psions (rationalists) and the Sith to Wilders (emotionalists).

DreadKhan

Jedi vary, but yeah, they tend towards lawful neutral. Not good, but this isn't to say no Jedi can be good, just that the teachings are more about stability and order than being a charity group.

I tend to agree more with @the_spyder that the Jedi seem more like a supernatural eastern monastic order. Older real world religions tended to promote order, Eastern favouring a divine cosmic sense of order. Also like many Eastern world views, the Jedi emphasize oneness with the universe. Unlike many real world religions, there is an abandonment of most emotion it seems... in particular, humour is not a key aspect of the Jedi, but joy is important to most Eastern faiths, including finding humour in our personal foibles as a source of humility. Both are pretty chaste too, at higher levels of 'enlightenment'. The Jedi Ghost might even represent achieving something akin to conscious Nirvana, an odd thought indeed.

Sith are pretty interesting in some ways; the base teachings heavily promote chaos and are based around the self, not necessarily evil. The issue I suppose is the teachings don't make Evil strictly taboo... and promoting self interest without promoting compassionate empathy is a great way to create sociopaths. Sociopaths aren't inherently evil, but if they are also purely motivated by self interest, they probably will be pretty evil if given the opportunity.

I think Sith are philosophically speaking trying to make the universe one with themselves, while Jedi seek to become one with the universe. Neither is really good, but the former is very likely to be a corrupting influence.

GreenWarlock

Admiral Motti gave the game away regarding Jedi and their 'Sorcerous ways'. Jedi are a sorcerer kit that allows Weapon Mastery Light Saber. Note that they are generally seen without armor, another sign of sorcerer that typically leads to confusion with Monks. Their collection of force powers are learned and used innately, like Sorcerer spells rather than some arcane knowledge written in a book (no magery here). Their devotion to The Force seems more of a philosophy than a religion, besides, their obsession with light sabers and cutting off limbs means they can't be clerics! The notion of Jedi as cosmic gardener making them druids is interesting, but ultimately flawed. Druids are guardians of nature, but Jedi (prior to Palpatine) are guardians of civilization.

OneAngryMushroom

Impossible. Druids can't wield long swords. Now if they used Staffs we might not have an issue

OH WAIT...

Dee

GreenWarlock said:

Admiral Motti gave the game away regarding Jedi and their 'Sorcerous ways'. Jedi are a sorcerer kit that allows Weapon Mastery Light Saber. Note that they are generally seen without armor, another sign of sorcerer that typically leads to confusion with Monks. Their collection of force powers are learned and used innately, like Sorcerer spells rather than some arcane knowledge written in a book (no magery here). Their devotion to The Force seems more of a philosophy than a religion, besides, their obsession with light sabers and cutting off limbs means they can't be clerics! The notion of Jedi as cosmic gardener making them druids is interesting, but ultimately flawed. Druids are guardians of nature, but Jedi (prior to Palpatine) are guardians of civilization.

Also, Jedi powers are apparently passed from generation to generation (Luke: "My father has it. I have it. And...my sister has it."), which fits the origin of sorcerer magic.

Personally I'd categorize the Force as being Sorcerer-like magic, with the Jedi order being an expected or required multiclass into Monk. Sith may also take levels in monk, but some (like the Emperor) forego levels in Monk for more powerful Sorcerer spells.

DreadKhan

Yeah, but in proper old now-defunct canon, Jedi weren't allowed to have children. Anakin having married is supposed to be a huge deal, meaning almost all Jedi are supposed to occur 'spontaneously'. Mind you, some people are supposed to be much closer to the force than others, even without training, though they'd be badly outclassed by a trained Jedi.

I tend to by gut go sorcerer too, but Jedi are WWWAAAYYY less versatile than most low level sorcerers; their only really strong power is their presience. Sith DO have some serious powers, but even in Kotor, LS gets to disable droids, DS gets Force Storm and that Life Drain thingy. Yeah, I think you'd have an easy argument presenting some sith as sorcerers, but even Yoda-level jedi have to rely on telekinesis (very limited utility in combat it seems, though not none, and Sith can also do it) mostly. Both have limited charm/domination powers, but not great ones.

If you wanted to make a 2nd ed style Jedi/Sith, I'd just give them an ultra limited spell selection, used mostly as a sorcerer, and like Kotor, I'd think you'd need several representing the very different skill sets. However, if their limited spell selection is done right, you could use that selection to create Jedi that are more warrior like, more rogueish, or more caster-like.

There was a SW D20, but I have very little knowledge of it, other than the Wound Point system outlined roughly in 3.5's Unearthed Arcana.

FinneousPJ

@DreadKhan KotOR uses a d20 ruleset, does it not.

DreadKhan

Its D20, but not SW D20 rules I think. Kotor had some pretty insane HP totals for enemies eventually, including for enemies who shouldn't be that tough really, being a game and all. Mind you, D20 always has had some issues with insane HP totals.

bob_veng

i'd say jedi is a monk+sorcerer "hybrid" class the same way how paladin is a fighter+cleric mixture

jedi have more monk in them and the sith have more sorcerer in them

DreadKhan

bob_veng said:

i'd say jedi is a monk+sorcerer "hybrid" class the same way how paladin is a fighter+cleric mixture

jedi have more monk in them and the sith have more sorcerer in them

I'll let you explain that one to Darth Maul maybe... he seems pretty much a warrior/ranger type, very little arcane about him.

bob_veng

i don't think darth maul is an exception:
- he still needs force to do anything and that's similar to ki for me (they both draw power from mental discipline, not an external source such as divine magic)
- the physical aspect of both is more akin to eastern martial arts than western medieval fighting techniques which fit more squarely into the warrior archetype

i also don't really see how he's similar to a ranger

darth maul was strong with the force, we just didn't see him do anything interesting in the movie

###

BelgarathMTH said:

1) Druids get special weapon scimitar, and the Flame Blade spell. In NWN2, only druids get the Flame Weapon spell, which is very powerful. (Lightsabers?)

2) Druids' animal companions and summonses, (like especially Insect Plague) in the various computer games can play into the idea of Luke's "use" of Ewoks and animal-like artificial intelligences.

3) Druids' general aversion to attack magic fits fairly well. Call Lightning uses the natural environment, not Darkside anger like Lightning Bolt. Healing and defensive spells like Iron Skins also fit very well with Jedi "philosophy".

1) i don't agree with the comparison because the lightsaber is just a technological implement
2) ewoks are luke's sentient allies (not animals) and they haven't been summoned or bound to his will
3) druids don't really have an aversion to attack magic in 2ed; in fact the best druid spells in bg and iwd are offensive spells

meagloth

It's pretty obvious Jedi are based on eastern monks. I don't know if that translates to monk class's super well but there are good and bad monks, so....
I would say they are Druids, but I agree they are true neutral.

DreadKhan

Darth Maul is very much shown to be a skill3d hunter and infiltrator, is fond of stealth, uses ambushes, and even uses a double weapon. Yes, 3rd ed rangers are two weapon fighters, but the double weapon is in old cannon pretty unusual... the only other one I remember before Ep 1 would be Exar Kun.

Regarding his force strength, he fights without using much force powers, not unlike Yoda, who is supposed to be immensely powerful force-wise. Neither uses tactics like telekinesis much, the way Vader did on Cloud City, or Force Lightning the way Palpatine does. Could he? I'd think he would have if he could; he gets beaten by Obi-wan, and I don't think many people LIKE being bisected.

Obviously not everyone can use every force power it seems, and cannon made a point of stressing that Jedi tend to have varying skills and specialties when using the force; presumeably the more uber-force users like Exar were more versatile, but I'm not certain there is anything that really supports that; sure, in Kotor you get every power eventually (or damn close), but none of the stories seem to back this up.

Some seem to specialize in combat buffs, some like Vader are really versatile, but overall, they aren't using too many big, flashy powers among the Jedi; and most Sith seem to rely more on buffs rather than Force Lightning.

I used to be an uberfan of SW, so curious how the upcoming movies will go.

Regarding original post, just remembered in the old Expanded Universe stuff, Anakin Solo's big specialty was in machines, and using the force to build or repair them, which doesn't sound very druidy.

FinneousPJ

Anakin Solo wut?

DreadKhan

...He's the youngest child of Han and Leia. In the old EU, dunno if he'll still exist.

FinneousPJ

I see. What an ominous name.

BelgarathMTH

Lots of interesting responses here. It seems cross Star Wars/D&D fans can never agree on exactly what character class the Jedi are. I guess they don't neatly fit into any one class. A lot of what they do and talk about still seems pretty druid-y to me, especially in the second trilogy where they go on about "restoring balance to the Force."

I see the connection to monk philosophy and ki, but I don't think the combat skills match up well, since monks prefer unarmed combat in the D&D game, and the Jedi always fight with lightsabers. Some kind of sword or staff use seems to be integral to the class concept. (They fight with long, glowing, energy-emitting blade-like weapons using two-handed sword technique. Lucas has been interviewed saying that their fight choreographers began to mix in more and more one-handed sword technique as the movies progressed, as their idea of the base of the lightsaber evolved from being imagined as a very heavy and difficult to manipulate object, into being imagined as a very lightweight and easy to manipulate object.)

I think the Jedi are pretty clearly some kind of fighter-magician hybrid, but D&D has lots of magic-use classifications (arcane, divine, charisma-based, intelligence-based, wisdom-based) that are supposed to define separate classes, while the various individual Jedi can be seen in the movies performing all of the different kinds of spells and casting (charm, evocation, healing, divination, alteration, transmutation) to some degree. The masters don't always agree with each other on the specifics of Jedi philosophy, either.

So maybe "Jedi" is more of an umbrella category that includes a lot of different character classes bound together by a certain philosophical orientation (despite having disagreements about the specifics), and where individuals choose and specialize in different combat techniques according to their talents. I believe there's a lot of material in the expanded universe and in the KOTOR games that would support that idea.

Mathsorcerer

I always presumed that Jedi were based on samurai with their lighsabers being "magic swords" taken to a logical extreme in that they are indestructible (at least the blades are) and can cut through anything. (Incidentally, my son tells me that there is a substance through which lightsabers cannot cut, which pretty much begs the question why hasn't someone made a shield or armor out of that stuff.) Thrown in the cinematic abilities of swordsmen from wu xia films, in which the lone swordsman is never outnumbered, and all the elements are in place.

If we *must* quantify Jedi in D&D terms then we would have to go with fighter/druid without the "no metal weapons" restriction (even though druids can use scimitars, which are metal....but that is neither here nor there). Consider the person who personified the nature of Jedi the most--Qui-Gon Jinn (it wasn't his fault which movie he was in, so we'll forgive him for that). He wasn't on the Jedi Council *because* he followed the Force at all times. The Council represented too much top-heavy authority and structure; its failure was inevitable and should have been obvious for anyone to see.

DreadKhan

Monks in D20 use special 'monk weapons', usually mechanically not worth Exotic Weapon Proficiency, but monks can use their superior apr with said weapons... which can be handy vs certain enemies. Punching trolls to death isn't going to work well, but a flaming sai? Yeah, handy.

Jedi and Sith are both supposed to be very skilled at unarmed combat, as others have noted, and most do fight without armour; there are exceptions though, some very, very powerful. Vader has significant armour, and iirc, Exar Kun used armour. In Kotor, armour interfered with some force powers, especially flashy Sith ones.

I think Druids would have lots of common ground with Hermit-type Jedi, IE Yoda, Jolee Bindo, Old Ben the Crazy Wizard, etc. Others are very much a part of civilization. I agree its not an easy translation, but I think a Sorcerer with only 1 or 2 spells per spell level, with heavily nerfed 'flashy' spells, and more cleric/haste buffs as options wouldn't be miles off target. You could build a physical combatant, or a manipulator/caster with few buffs using one class.

In 5th Ed, you'd have the option of backgrounds, those subclass, and some unarmoured/unarmed abilities to finish rounding things out. 5th could use those subset/kit-like things to make one Force Adept class work for nearly any Jedi or Sith.

the_spyder

BelgarathMTH said:

Lots of interesting responses here. It seems cross Star Wars/D&D fans can never agree on exactly what character class the Jedi are. I guess they don't neatly fit into any one class. A lot of what they do and talk about still seems pretty druid-y to me, especially in the second trilogy where they go on about "restoring balance to the Force."

Balance isn't a Druid Exclusive idea. Even Nature's balance (not the drink) is not EXCLUSIVELY Druidic in nature (pun intended). Alignments (Neutrality in particular) see a balance. Certain orders of Knightly orders seek a balance. Elves (other than druids) seek a balance (with nature). Even Wizardry itself is sometimes seen as balancing (or more often unbalancing) the forces OF nature to produce effects.

For me, I tend more towards Jedi being more of a Prestige class than a core class. I'd say HEAVY on the Monk type training due to the meditation, the more spiritual powers, the combat (and yes I think unarmed combat is a primary focus of Jedi), the Ki power type abilities, the healing and movement (as stated above). But I rather think it is something that you grow into through progressing in your own life. The philosophy that knowing your true self means following you core skills to their ultimate and then having The Force enhance them.

I definitely can see people saying Sorcerer as being into the mix. I don't take Admiral Motti's comments as being 'Literal' sorcery but merely that there is a mystique surrounding the order which is seen as having mystical 'Sorcery' powers, and not that he was naming a specific class. But I do think that quite a lot of the abilities are Sorcery like, and more innate rather than learned (so Sorcerer rather than Wizard).

I quite liked the way they did it in Kotor in that, depending on your focus, you had three paths. As to how that fits in with 'Official' lore, that's a different matter all-together. I just happened to like it.

GreenWarlock

One thing that leads back to the fighter subclassing though, is the title of Jedi Knight. My impression of the original trilogy that the idea of the Knight was modeled on the chivalry of Arthur and Charlemagne's court, where a knight would have a duty of honor to protect the weak and counter injustice. While chivalry in its ideals was certainly an honor code, it was also a martial code. Knights were warriors, and achieved justice at the point of a blade. It just so happens the Jedi have the sharpest blade known to chivalric orders...

SapphireIce101

To be honest, the Je'daii Order is probably the closest thing to a druid, because they truly strive for balance. Though, in the end it didn't work because Light and Dark just don't mix very well.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Je'daii_Order

The Je'daii Code:

"There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no fear; there is power.
I am the heart of the Force.
I am the revealing fire of light.
I am the mystery of darkness
In balance with chaos and harmony,
Immortal in the Force."

DreadKhan

Yeah, but Jedi seem much more like Samurai... in training at least, though I'd have to say there is clearly some parallels between knights and samurai.

Lightsabers aren't sharp, they are hot. VERY HOT. Its a plasma stick... we use similar technology in the real world for cutting things, and even welding. Plasma is a handy state of matter! Our plasma equipment is VERY bulky though, and no cutters I know of make a plasma as big as a lightsaber; you'd need a robot to use such a cutter safely.

Also, you can't use a plasma cutter without eye protection, dunno how the Jedi solved that one; they should all have one awful case of arc flash after a short dual!

Adso

@DreadKhan

Lightsaber you say?

Michio Kaku - "Can you build a real Lightsaber ?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lr5OUjFDkg

the_spyder

@SapphireIce101 - again Balance is not the exclusive purvue of Druids.

@Dreadkhan - I really like the Samurai parallel. I'd say that was much closer.

BelgarathMTH

If I recall correctly, Michio Paku decided it couldn't be done without using some kind of telescoping solid object (telescoping so it could eject and retract like a lightsaber) to generate the plasma field in a stable manner while still being able to parry like a blade. In fact, parrying was the biggest problem with the idea, since any known form of plasma field will just pass through another plasma field like thin air.

I wish he'd explored the avenue of blowtorch-like technology a little further before he went with his telescoping model, though. The real world technology that seems the most like a lightsaber to me, is the blowtorch, as @DreadKhan mentioned.

That "Can We Build A Lightsaber" episode is definitely worth watching in its entirety for anyone who hasn't seen it. I might rewatch it later when I have time. The other episodes of this same series are also very interesting and fun. Michio Kaku and Neil DeGrasse Tyson are my favorite popular scientists, and I think they both qualify as two of the most brilliant, charismatic, and interesting people in the world currently. Thanks for the link, @Adso .

DreadKhan

@BelgarathMTH well, a plasma cutter or welder is a bit more advanced than a good ol Oxy-Fuel torch, but they are often used similarly. Oxy-Fuel is better vs thicker stuff, unless you have a massive plasma cutter to compete. Plasma is about the hottest thing we can create in a shop, very handy for cutting materials that won't oxidize. I would expect you'd need thousands of amps of electricity to make a lightsaber blade, so you COULD arm a tank with one, but not a guy just yet. Very limited use though, it would quickly drain any battery!

I agree that the parrying thing is a complication, as is the odd material being resistant to lightsaber plasma. Plasma isn't solid obviously, and I suspect the whole thing was heavily handwaved.

the_spyder

DreadKhan said:

I would expect you'd need thousands of amps of electricity to make a lightsaber blade, so you COULD arm a tank with one, but not a guy just yet. Very limited use though, it would quickly drain any battery!

Someone needs to go out and create a mini arc reactor.



Oh, wait.