[Classes\Kits Request] Fix the Monk class
Anton
Member, Moderator, Mobile Tester Posts: 513
(Reddit request by Aosaw)
Since BG1 is now going to be using the ToB engine, with all of the classes and kits that entails, we need to take a look at some of the classes and kits that were designed without the first seven levels in mind.
I'm thinking specifically about the monk. Really, this class needs only three (major) fixes:
- Their wisdom needs to improve their AC. Allow Wisdom to modify the monk's AC using the same table as Dexterity.
- Their THAC0 needs to be better. My recommendation, since the monk is a melee class, is really just to let the monk use the warrior classes' "enhanced Strength" score - A monk with an 18/50 Strength will have the bonus to THAC0 that it needs to make it a competitive asset in low-level parties, without severely overpowering them at higher levels.
- A monk fighting unarmed should be treated as if wielding a single weapon for the purposes of the Single Weapon Style. In fact, with this change (and maybe the ability to add a second proficiency slot here), I don't know that you would need the wisdom bonus to AC mentioned above. But you shouldn't have to equip a dagger to benefit from your Single Weapon Style.
There are a number of mods out there ("Sword and Fist" http://www.gibberlings3.net/swordandfist/ is a good example) that gives them some of the abilities they deserve - but a lot of them neglect the monk's primary weakness, which is that, at level 1, they are more useless than a mage.
Since BG1 is now going to be using the ToB engine, with all of the classes and kits that entails, we need to take a look at some of the classes and kits that were designed without the first seven levels in mind.
I'm thinking specifically about the monk. Really, this class needs only three (major) fixes:
- Their wisdom needs to improve their AC. Allow Wisdom to modify the monk's AC using the same table as Dexterity.
- Their THAC0 needs to be better. My recommendation, since the monk is a melee class, is really just to let the monk use the warrior classes' "enhanced Strength" score - A monk with an 18/50 Strength will have the bonus to THAC0 that it needs to make it a competitive asset in low-level parties, without severely overpowering them at higher levels.
- A monk fighting unarmed should be treated as if wielding a single weapon for the purposes of the Single Weapon Style. In fact, with this change (and maybe the ability to add a second proficiency slot here), I don't know that you would need the wisdom bonus to AC mentioned above. But you shouldn't have to equip a dagger to benefit from your Single Weapon Style.
There are a number of mods out there ("Sword and Fist" http://www.gibberlings3.net/swordandfist/ is a good example) that gives them some of the abilities they deserve - but a lot of them neglect the monk's primary weakness, which is that, at level 1, they are more useless than a mage.
Post edited by Anton on
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Comments
[–]HeroicSpur 2 points 1 month ago
It's true they are VERY weak early on. But, I played Throne of Bhaal as a monk (without even importing from BG2)...jesus...he destroyed everything and at terrifying speed, nothing could stand against him (unarmed all the way). The only similar level of destructive power I've seen is a mage with robe of vecna, improved alacrity, timestop, then cast nearly every spell in the book, including dragon's breath and comet, when time resumes...
If there is going to be continuity between all the BGs, then improving monks early on, whilst sustaining their higher level powers, will make them insanely powerful at the end.
[–]Aosaw[S] 1 point 1 month ago
I suspect that, at high levels, the additional +1 to THAC0 and +2 or +3 to damage from a warrior's strength won't make [b]that[/b] much of a difference.
That being said, you're right that the monk's end-game should be modified to make it not quite so game-breaking, especially if its early game is being "boosted".
I really think, though, that for a class designed to fight with its fists (and therefore designed to be in melee all the time), this class is annoyingly underpowered at the beginning of the game.
[–]Bhryaen 1 point 1 month ago
Starting off as a mage- presumably a spellcaster- and ending up just shooting crossbow bolts with low AB for the first several levels most of the time is similar... and makes the later powerhouse experience all more worth the wait ;-)
Still, it does seem pretty funny that monks go around essentially getting their asses kicked at first. "It is the Way of the Unstrategic Fist." Kensai too goes about with no armor like a doofus... and is one of the arguably overpowered class kits...
[–]Aosaw[S] 1 point 1 month ago
True - although the Kensai, at least, can benefit from a high strength and High Mastery in whatever weapon he chooses to wield - and a smart player will assign two slots into Single Weapon Style to get the added -2 AC. So an Elf with a 19 Dexterity and a high Strength can manage a THAC0 of 16 and an AC of 3, which is nothing to sneeze at.
You're right about mages; although the pay-off for a mage is just "slightly" more satisfying than the pay-off for a kensai or a monk, I think.
[–]kutovy 1 point 1 month ago
1 more suggestion here: Monk should not use fighter's HLA. It would be better to make special abilities like those which is used by Baltazar. And yes "Monk Remix" component from Sword and Fist is a good example to start with. http://www.gibberlings3.net/swordandfist/
[–]IchigoRXC 1 point 1 month ago
Perhaps creating an unarmed weapon style would help? Instead of using single weapon style. This could then be used to balance things at later levels by toning his awesomeness down, but he can be better for having points in unarmed?
[–]Gilthas 1 point 1 month ago
I honestly don't think that the Monk's early levels should be rebalanced.
Yeah, they suck at low levels but it helps you build character (or something) and makes the endgame awesomeness, well, awesomer.
[–]Aosaw[S] 1 point 1 month ago
Building character is one thing - but what the monk has to deal with is absurd.
You're a melee class that's useless in melee. I do understand that this helps the monk feel more awesome at later levels ("You've got to earn it to burn it"), but from a purely thematic standpoint, the fact that this is a warrior class that doesn't benefit from a warrior's THAC0 or a warrior's Strength is just plain wrong.
[–]Gilthas 1 point 1 month ago
Why don't they benefit from a Warrior's Strength? Monks don't get Strength bonuses to damage if they use an appropriate melee weapon?
I never used a low level Monk, so I never bother looking at their weapon selection.
[–]Aosaw[S] 1 point 1 month ago
There is a different strength table for warriors and non-warriors. Non-warriors max out their start-of-game benefit at Strength 18, with no percentile - which means +1 THAC0 and +2 Damage.
A warrior class gets the added percentile value, which adds an additional 1-4 points of damage and an additional 1-2 points of THAC0 depending on the value.
For monks, the best you can do is proficiency with any weapon, which means that at level 1, your THAC0 is 19 with an 18 Strength. To put it in perspective, a Ranger with specialization in Longswords and three points in Two-Weapon Fighting will have an additional +1 THAC0 with the main weapon and -1 THAC0 with the off-hand weapon. The ranger will also (more than likely) have a Strength percentile above 50, which nets a total of +3 THAC0 and +5 damage. (And the ranger gets an off-hand attack at +1 THAC0 and +5 damage, too.)
Compare that to a monk's +1 THAC0 and +2 damage, and the difference is staggering. At higher levels it doesn't matter quite so much, but at low levels you're looking at a -10% to-hit rating, and -3 damage. And you also don't get the extra attack per round for wielding two weapons.
I think that, probably, if you just gave the monk the percentile strength rating and the ability to treat your fists as Single Weapon Style, that would resolve a lot of the issues.
[–]Gilthas 1 point 1 month ago
Yeah, but imagine if your Monk only has 17 Strength, much of that math is gone. Then go look at how many BG1 NPCs actually have 18 Strength, I mean you even have full-time fighters that only have 15 or 16 Strength.
Monks aren't that crappy at low levels when compared to the likes of Khalid and Kagain. Sure, they can make up for the lack in Strength with Grand Mastery and more weapon options, but a Monk with 18 Strength isn't that bad off.
[–]Aosaw[S] 2 points 1 month ago
I'm not sure that using Khalid as an example of how a low strength is acceptable for a melee warrior is a good way to prove your point. I always equip him with a long bow at the first available opportunity - his melee THAC0 is just too low otherwise.
I don't know that you need Grand Mastery necessarily. But currently, a monk fighting unarmed gets no THAC0 bonus from proficiency, no bonus from "magical" weapons, and no bonus from an exceptional Strength score. This, combined with an AC that hits its minimum at 6 - and only if you have an 18 in Dexterity - makes the monk virtually unplayable at level 1.
A mage, at least, can cast one or two spells in a day before he becomes useless. And a mage gets a lot more powerful than a monk at higher levels.
You don't need a huge buff to the monk. Giving them the /XX value for an 18 Strength and letting them benefit from Single Weapon Style while unarmed would probably be enough. The goal should be to make them usable from level 1, not to make them superheroes.
[–]Gilthas 1 point 1 month ago
But the Monk doesn't have to fight unarmed at level 1. Use a melee weapon until his unarmed attacks don't suck.
The point of mentioning Khalid (and more importantly that several melee characters don't have 18 Strength), is that just because you can create a 18/00 Strength Fighter, that doesn't mean that melee characters with low Strength aren't viable.
[–]Aosaw[S] 2 points 1 month ago
I understood your point. I was making a counterpoint that Khalid is probably the worst melee warrior in BG1.
Until you gain a few levels and increase your Base THAC0, a high strength is the only way to reasonably expect to win any combat encounter, for the sole reason that it boosts your to-hit.
[–]Gilthas 1 point 1 month ago
Oh come on, I have a hard time believing that you need a 18/something Strength to get by in BG1.
< Has been shortened due to characters limit
One argument was that a monk should just use a melee weapon to benefit from SWS (Single Weapon Style) until his THAC0 is good enough to fight unarmed; but for a class that is designed to fight unarmed, that's a poor man's substitution when there are so many ways to improve the actual class.
At frist levels i just put him on the back with a ton of darts on his hand and i survived pretty well on the begin, the price of overpower must be paid. I really like the challenge of a low level monk but this is my concept and i don't really care if the low level monk will be changed or no.
By the way, having the find trap hability shoud not the monks be allowed to deactivate/disarm the trap? At least on the find trap description it says "...find and disarm...", not only find.
First, I've seen people mention HLA, and how powerful a monk is at high level. While this is true, don't forget we're talking about BGEE here, not (yet) BG2; meaning you won't get HLA, you won't get your +4 1d20 damage fist, all your nice immunities, nothing. Anyone who has ever tried playing a monk in Tutu or BGT knows they're a liability for the rest of the team, as they just leech the XP without bringing anything to the table. And that has to change.
I've also seen people speak of Sword and Fist and its version of the monk. While it did a few things right, it's not what we need here : they actually made monks weaker at low levels, because their AC increases much more slowly, while making them more powerful at higher levels (+6 3d8 damage fists, with potentially 10 attacks per round since it seems you can get hasted this time). I'm also not a fan of how they changed Magic Resistance, but that's another topic.
The other interesting mod is Oversight, which changes a monk's HLA. I actually think they're pretty fun to use, and most of them aren't that overpowered. It's still leagues better than just having warrior HLA imho.
So, how can we "fix" low level monks without breaking the high levels ? Well, previous posts gave a lot of interesting solutions, like AC improved by wisdom (we all know in ToB AC doesn't really matter, so it's not a big deal) or making styles work with unarmed attacks (either One Weapon Fighting, or actually make an "unarmed fighting" style ?). All I know is, we need to do something, anything, to make monks fun in BGEE, as opposed to the chore they'd be in their current state.
[spoiler=Monk High Level Abilities]This component will give monks their own set of High Level Abilities instead, most of which should be quite familiar to anyone who has played through Throne of Bhaal before.
Shadowless Kick
This kick throws the target back, knocks the target unconscious, and deals 4d8 points of damage.
Tiger Strike
A more powerful form of Shadowless Kick, this power ensures every blow for the next round is a critical hit. In addition, every blow for the next two rounds throws the target back and knocks the target unconscious.
Prerequisite: Shadowless Kick.
Dragon Fist
With a blow, the monk strips away the magical protections of the target.
Faster Than The Eye
By concentrating briefly on another area within 4000 feet, the monk can instantly transport herself there.
Prerequisite: Feet of the Wind.
Flip Resistances
The monk's magic resistance converts into physical damage resistance for a number of rounds equal to twice the monk's level. The monk also becomes immune to backstab for the same duration.
Solar Stance
Solar Stance renders nearby enemies more vulnerable, reducing the saving throws of any within 60 feet of the monk by 4. It creates a cloud of glittering golden particles that fill the air for twenty feet around the monk, revealing invisible creatures. All enemies in the cloud must roll a successful saving throw vs. spell or be blinded (-4 to attack rolls, saving throws, and Armor Class) until the dust fades, after 4 rounds. Also, a blast of fire emanates from the monk, scorching and throwing back everyone in a 30-foot radius, though the stance protects the monk from the flames.
Prerequisite: Tiger Strike.
Lunar Stance
A monk who strikes this stance gains a +5 bonus to Saving Throws vs. Death, a + 2 bonus to luck, and becomes immune to Slay, Imprisonment, Petrification, Level Drain, Disintegrate, and Time Stop. The duration of this power is four rounds.
Prerequisite: Solar Stance.
Shadow Stance
This stance causes the monk to instantly become both invisible, as per the spell Improved Invisibility, and immune to divination spells such as True Seeing. This power lasts for 23 rounds.
Prerequisite: Lunar Stance.
Feet of the Wind
Each time this ability is chosen, it greatly and permanently increases the monk's movement rate.
Second Wind
By concentrating briefly, the monk can shrug off even the worst of wounds, once per day. The effect of this power is to fully heal the monk instantly.
Prerequisite: Flip Resistances.
Stunning Blow
The monk has one more use of the Stunning Blow ability per day.
Quivering Palm
The monk has one more use of the Quivering Palm ability per day.[/spoiler]
Too bad, there is no mod's author, @Kish, here.
Both would get some abilities unique to them, like throwing many darts at once in a cone, or a sweep kick that targets surrounding enemies, plus advantages and cons to suit the kit's style. I'm sure others can come up with many great ideas to this, and this would add more flavour to the monk class.
Perhaps should be merged with [Classes\Kits Request]Fix the Monk class
Merged the threads.
Endgame monks are pretty hilarious in their crazy immune-to-everything, killing-spree sort of way. But then, most classes get all sorts of overpowered given HLAs and TOB gear.
If your Str is higher at level 1, you start with an 18 or 19 THAC0, which is good enough for the lower level content. Your AC starts at 9, which is OK for level 1 IMO.
I'm not sure how I feel about allowing Unarmed fighting to be considered Single Weapon Fighting Style since the animation clearly shows punches and kicks, not just a single weapon (fist). I'd rather see them add a Unarmed weapon proficiency and allow us to put 1 star into it at character creation since the existing choices are very limited.
Also, the Monk in BG2 was based on the 3rd edition Monk, not the 2nd edition Monk, which was Cleric kit. So I agree that Wisdom should enhance their AC the same way Dex does, since Wis enhances Monk's AC in 3rd Edition, which as I said the class was based on. Currently in BG2, Monks gain "A monk's natural armor class gets better as he goes up in levels. His armor class starts off at 9, and then decreases by 1 for every 2 levels." This may be how Bioware implemented the Monk class into BG2 in order to make up for lack of Wisdom bonus to AC. However, in 3rd edition, Monks gain a natural AC bonus, as well as the modifier from Wis.
Monks lose their natural bonus and Wis bonus by wearing light armor or above. Since in BG2 Monks cannot equip any armor at all this is irrelevant.
Other than the AC change and Unarmed Proficiency, I'm happy with where Monks are at level 1. They get powerful in the higher end game so of course the balance is being weak at first.
I wasn't advocating that Single Weapon Style should affect Unarmed fighting. Its just that since Fists at level 1-2 do crappy damage (1D6) you might as well give them Single Weapon Style and Long Sword so they get a 1D8 weapon and a bonus -1 to AC.
Once you get to level 3 and earn your bonus 1/2 attack to Fists and they also become a 1D8 weapon, and Monks get their first -1 bonus to AC, you can drop the sword and fight unarmed.
On a side note, I know converting BG3 to 3rd edition would of been a nightmare (a mod tried to do it) but I think that IWD2 Infinity engine is the most mature variant.
Or they should re-consider bonuses from Single Weapon Style and give us clearer description.
@PhillipDaigle