2 levels of Assassin/Fighter vs. Berserker Kit
Lateralus
Member Posts: 903
Seems like an interesting trade off, I might give it a try! A note about me, I HATE mages. Which is why I LOVE poison. I also don't like the other fighter kits when compared to the Berserker, because of the equipment restrictions. So here's how it stacks up:
Assassin Pros:
2 weapon proficiencies. Limited to thief, sure, but free is free.
A permanent +1 to hit and damage. That sure stacks well with the fighter class.
x2 To back stabbing. This won't be very useful unless your heavily armored fighter is somehow made invisible.
Poison use 1/day. It's a strong venom, and all but instant death if you get the jump on a spell slinger.
Trap use 1/day. If you put everything into traps you could get it as high as 60. Can be used in heavy armor.
Detect illusion. It's worth putting 10% into this, if you're invisible you can just stand next to a target until it works.
Other thief skills. You will be fine for the beginning of BG and wise potion use can get you even further success.
Assassin Cons:
-14 total HP
18 STR until supplemented with potions, tomes, etc.
Berserker Pros:
Rage. Several times a day you can get a +2 to hit and damage and a -2 AC bonus. +15 HP, and immunities to several spell effects.
Berserker Cons:
Gets winded. Annoying but rarely a problem if you time your rages right.
Only 1 pip into range. Not a big deal.
In the very long run, it's a 29 HP swing when you weigh the loss of rage into it. But, it's like you get a permanent rage that is half as good. The +1 hit/dam that assassins get can't be overlooked. Zerks are awesome at seeking out and destroying mages, and a lot of the assassin/vanillas success is contingent upon being made invisible before a battle. While invisible you could walk up to mages that have illusionary defenses up, and wait until you dispel them (detect illusion), poison your weapons, and gain a +4 to hit with a X2 to damage for your first strike. Then, do what fighters do and hit often.
Something to consider!
Assassin Pros:
2 weapon proficiencies. Limited to thief, sure, but free is free.
A permanent +1 to hit and damage. That sure stacks well with the fighter class.
x2 To back stabbing. This won't be very useful unless your heavily armored fighter is somehow made invisible.
Poison use 1/day. It's a strong venom, and all but instant death if you get the jump on a spell slinger.
Trap use 1/day. If you put everything into traps you could get it as high as 60. Can be used in heavy armor.
Detect illusion. It's worth putting 10% into this, if you're invisible you can just stand next to a target until it works.
Other thief skills. You will be fine for the beginning of BG and wise potion use can get you even further success.
Assassin Cons:
-14 total HP
18 STR until supplemented with potions, tomes, etc.
Berserker Pros:
Rage. Several times a day you can get a +2 to hit and damage and a -2 AC bonus. +15 HP, and immunities to several spell effects.
Berserker Cons:
Gets winded. Annoying but rarely a problem if you time your rages right.
Only 1 pip into range. Not a big deal.
In the very long run, it's a 29 HP swing when you weigh the loss of rage into it. But, it's like you get a permanent rage that is half as good. The +1 hit/dam that assassins get can't be overlooked. Zerks are awesome at seeking out and destroying mages, and a lot of the assassin/vanillas success is contingent upon being made invisible before a battle. While invisible you could walk up to mages that have illusionary defenses up, and wait until you dispel them (detect illusion), poison your weapons, and gain a +4 to hit with a X2 to damage for your first strike. Then, do what fighters do and hit often.
Something to consider!
4
Comments
Two characters with 3,000,000 XP.
Berserker 9/Thief 22
167 hp
base thac0 10
weapon prof points 14
thief skill points 565
rage 2/day
backstab x5
weapon mastery
base attacks 1.5
traps 4/day
epic level abilities: thief
Assassin 2/ Fighter 19
151 hp
base thac0 2
weapon prof points 12
thief skill points 55
poison 1/day
+1 HIT/DAM
backstab x2
weapon mastery
base attacks 2
traps 1/day
epic level abilities: fighter
The assassin build is vastly superior as a fighter due to a thac0 that is 8 better, .5 more attacks, and an additional +1 to hit/dam. 16 less hp but this build will be wearing the best armor all the time, it's not built to rely on thief skills. And of course, poison 1/day.
The f/t build is a master thief, but that 10 thac0 is really weak, the rages help but not enough.
A pure berserker would have 5 rages a day, 1 better thac0, and 17 more hp. The better thac0 is offset by the fact that you can hit level 20 in 1,250 xp, that also closes the hp gap by 3. So you have to weigh the following things:
rage 5/day + 14hp Vs. poison 1/day, +1 to damage, +1 to hit, minor thief abilities.
Those minor rogue skills don't mean much but it adds a lot of flavor.
Then there's the multi-class f/t with 3 mil xp:
121 hp
thac0 7
prof 8
thief skills 415
backstab x5
base attacks 2
traps 3/day
weapon specialization
When you factor in everything, the a2/f19 build is far superior with his main weapon(s).
Overall:
to hit: +8
damage: +4
poison 1/day
extra attack
better speed factor
30 more hp
Either offense or defense can be effective for dealing with Mages or getting to them before they can get off some of their useful spells. Blackguards and Assassins both get the poison weapon ability so both could be effective getting a hit in on a spellcaster. The Paladin kits by themselves tend to fair better overall than the Fighter or Thief kits by themselves, except maybe the Dwarven Defender. Dual classing is what makes some of the kits more appealing than playing a Paladin, supplementing different parts of the character. Then again all of the Paladin kits are basically better than the base Paladin class so there's little reason to play a Paladin without a kit, whereas playing a non-kitted Fighter (or dual classing into one) is still a nice choice to have.
He deals a ton of damage, whether from a far with his longbow or up close with melee. Add poison weapon on top and most enemies will melt in front of him. I maxed out traps and put the remainder in hide in shadows for the occasional (and minor) damage boost from a cheeky backstab.
I've also got Wilson in my party for giggles. He compliments my vengeful woodsman quite nicely!
With a Berserker it's basically using your Berserking ability and hoping you don't run out of charges when you might need one for a battle like for immunity to status effects, as a newer or first time player isn't going to know all the specific encounters it would be useful for. A Cavalier also prevents those Horror spells from causing your party members to flake out in the middle of a battle, so their abilities benefit more than just him/her in combating spellcasters. By the time you reach around level 4 or 5, you basically have an infinite amount of Remove Fear charges at your disposal.
Also generally the Barbarian's Rage ability is better than Berserking, with Berserks getting access to weapon mastery instead. The extra 15 hit points sound better early on but the Constitution boost from the Barbarian's Rage as well as higher hit die for leveling up means if you'd want to go more for how you use your Rage ability then the Barbarian might be a bit better. Of course this thread is more about a dual class Berserker and you can't dual class a Barbarian so it just depends on what kind of warrior you want. Dual classing a Berserker means you'll not have too many charges a day of your Berserk ability later on, and while waiting to regain your Berserker abilities you won't have access to it either while something like a Cavalier wouldn't ever lose access to their bonuses unless your reputation dipped too low (which shouldn't be a problem).
But, thats a 42 hp dump that i dont think i could ever recover from
Overall, I'd highly recommend trying it. It's a lot of fun. I was thinking of trying a "ninja" build in my next playthrough (shadowdancer > fighter). Probably won't be as successful as the assassin>fighter but I'll give it a shot.
Given that detect illusion can be done with full plate...I'd be tempted to try a swashbuckler-10 then fighter. So BG1 as a swashbuckler then dual at the start of BG2, when the xp jump is insane. It would give the fighter +2 THACO, +2 damage, +3 AC and the equivalent of true sight with some traps to boot. All he loses out on is the backstabbing, but when wearing full plate that doesn't matter anyways. And with the extra levels, he'd have enough to max out both skills, while being able to put whatever extra there is into pickpockets.
Anyways, I like your name!
Back on topic, I considered 1 level of SB but I feel the assassin is more the feel I want.
I admire you guys going for such high levels in rogue kits, but the HP compensation is too costly for me.
EDIT: Actually, I think this build would make a fantastic non-Archer-kit archer. The hit points wouldn't matter as much on a backliner, and the poison weapon could really help make up for archers' general lack of punch.
Sounds cool when you put it like that. But BG1 is actually very easy for Kensei provided of course that you don't warrant a low reputation that cripples spending. The Shield Amulet gives you the equivalence of scale mail for around 600 gold (and it's AC 2 vs. missile attacks!) and with a +2 Kensei bonus you practically have full plate early in the game. Just keep recharging it and you could solo the game with a Kensei. Factor in an eventual +2 for a ring of protection, +1 for the cloak of Balduran, 18 DEX, and maybe 2 pips into single weapon style and you could be looking at a regular AC of -6! Pretty far from suicidal my friend.
I'm intrigued about the Wizard Slayer for the magic resistance. Consider a level 9 WS turned rogue. at around 3,400,000 total XP you could wield the Holy Avenger (+50% MR) with a base 30% MR. That's 80% magic resistance and what was the kits greatest disadvantage is turned into it's greatest asset. Magic items.
Trap 1/day is not that useful and you won't get the high-level traps.
The +1 THAC0 bonus is moot. You get much better bonus with a half-orc's 19 STR and an Elf gets +1 with swords and bows on top of STR bonus.
If you want to dual at low level, shadowdancer would be much more effective. With hide in plain sight, you essentially get free invisibility every round with a +4 bonus to you attack. You won't wear heavy armor, but invisibility is the best armor. With boots and shadow armor you should get decent stealth even at low level (maybe wait until Level 3).
If you really want a good fighter with poison, I suggest a blackguard. They also have some permanent immunities (fear, level drain), although not as good as Rage. So they could be seen as the middle ground between assassins and berzerker in that respect.
I've considered these points you have made, and while I would enjoy playing a hobbit/shadow dancer, it's not what I'm looking for. Here's why:
I want to be neutral, not evil.
In the long run the assassin2/vanilla fighter will outclass the blackgaurd in pure melee combat. With weapon mastery and the assassin bonus, you end up with +4hit/+6 damage, a better speed factor and more attacks (important for poison use). The BG will be around +1/+2 and much slower, he does get way more poison uses though.
Blackguard can cast DUHM eventually giving 25 strength and dexterity giving better damage and thac0 with melee and ranged weapons (not to mention better AC and HP). Low levels you have exceptional strength which should translate to at least +1 thac0 and +3 damage.
On top of these a blackguard has plenty of other benefits like the nice Aura of Despair.