@Flashburn Nobody in this thread is telling you to shut up and go away or fighting over who is more Oppressed than whom. What people who support romances for non-Cis, Non-Het people argue in this thread, they are saying, "Use more inclusion to include people whose love stories are rarely given much attention." If I want to read a story about two CIS Heterosexual people in a love relationship, there are a thousand million pieces of media open for me to do so. For someone non-CIS, Non-Heterosexual, that number of available pieces of media is considerably fewer (seriously, there are male/Male romance novels now- still few and hard to find, though, especially in brick and mortar stores), but what's wrong about letting people who aren't CIS Het find something that appeals especially to them? I'm not arguing over "Who is more oppressed than whom", but saying, "Can we be more inclusive to people who aren't CIS or Het or even both?"
And the problem with the Trope that @Nonnahswriter mentioned isn't that it's a trope, it's that it's handled in a very lazy way, generally. It's "Oh, character X was popular, let's make our own version of that!" instead of thought being put into making the new character have character in some way different from the one they are copying. Those sorts of characters can even still be done well… don't get me wrong there. But mostly, they are shortcuts to pump out another bland game with the same bland protagonist. The genius is in making that character actually stand out in some way from the crowd, and most game devs don't even TRY.
This is one of the things that is killing the videogame industry, where identity politics are more important than making a GAME, the purpose of which is to ENTERTAIN.
Must we cram this into every corner of videogames lest we be called something worse than an ISIS of Hitlers to shame and silence those who disagree: racist? Misogynist? Transphobic? Homophobic? You can call me those if you like; they mean nothing to me, especially after a year of being labelled as such when I am, in fact, not.
Organic diversity is what should be striven for, not this forced diversity, done as if trying to fulfill a quota. That's tokenism, besides. Pandering like this will not advance videogames anywhere, and it will not do them any favors sales-wise either (see: Sunset). Inserting these politics into videogames for the sake of progressiveness is a fruitless endeavor. The widest swath of the gaming audience will make sure of it.
This is one of the things that is killing the videogame industry, where identity politics are more important than making a GAME, the purpose of which is to ENTERTAIN.
Okay.
Why can't we make a GAME that is INCLUSIVE and still ENTERTAINING?
And the video-game industry isn't dying. Corporate game companies are still making millions of dollars, and with the help of kickstarter campaigns, now independent publishers are able to jump into the ring. We still have dozens upon dozens of game articles being written, communities discussing, jobs being created... None of that's going to shut down just because some people want to see themselves in a game. There's too much money and too many lives at stake.
Must we cram this into every corner of videogames lest we be called something worse than an ISIS of Hitlers to shame and silence those who disagree: racist? Misogynist? Transphobic? Homophobic? You can call me those if you like; they mean nothing to me, especially after a year of being labelled as such when I am, in fact, not.
No one in this thread is calling anyone any of those names. I'm sorry that that happened to you in the past, but right here, right now, you've no reason to feel so defensive.
Organic diversity is what should be striven for, not this forced diversity, done as if trying to fulfill a quota. That's tokenism, besides.
The thing is, because of societal flaws such as systematic racism/sexism/classism, organic diversity is difficult to achieve. When you hear the word "Hero," what do you first thing of? Probably a man, who's white, rescuing a woman (straight), in a fit and masculine body. That is the White-Straight-Male archetype. That is what naturally occurs to people, and anything different comes off as jarring. That's why we have to force diversity. We have to actively go against the norm that is so ingrained in us, or there won't be any diversity at all.
Pandering like this will not advance videogames anywhere, and it will not do them any favors sales-wise either (see: Sunset).
So you're going to use one example of a game that didn't do so well in sales and write it off as the number one reason why diversity in games is a bad idea? What about the Persona series, which regularly features an all-Japanese cast? What about Assassin's Creed 3, both versions featuring people of color? What about Mass Effect, an award-winning series that is praised for its sexual and racial diversity? Hell, what about games like Baldur's Gate and Skyrim and other RPGs that allow you to create your own character of almost any gender/shape/race/size/orientation... I don't recall any of these games doing badly in the bank, least of all because of their inclusiveness.
Inserting these politics into videogames for the sake of progressiveness is a fruitless endeavor. The widest swath of the gaming audience will make sure of it.
If by the "widest swath of the gaming audience," you mean the thousands of men, women, people of color, LGBTQ people, young and elderly, rich and poor, abled and disabled... Besides, how are we gamers supposed to "make sure of it?" By not buying games? These are GAMERS we're talking about. I doubt very much that these people would stop buying for any reason, least of all over this. We love games too much; we wouldn't even be having this conversation if we didn't.
Organic diversity is what should be striven for, not this forced diversity, done as if trying to fulfill a quota. That's tokenism, besides. Pandering like this will not advance videogames anywhere, and it will not do them any favors sales-wise either (see: Sunset). Inserting these politics into videogames for the sake of progressiveness is a fruitless endeavor. The widest swath of the gaming audience will make sure of it.
Organic diversity is ideal. For myself, I would be somewhat satisfied if more content creators could just open themselves to the idea of alternative protagonists. A lot of companies are starting to trend in that direction, which is a very good thing. The ideal is a scenario where there are no quotas, just good writers telling great stories about a broad spectrum of characters.
That being said, I don't think anyone is asking for quotas; the people who want more diversity are just asking for "more than there currently is". Even Anita Sarkeesian, whom GamerGate loves to harass, is only making an effort to shine a spotlight on some of the more damaging tropes, that are neither effective stories nor healthy images of women. She's not saying "never have a white male protagonist again"; she's saying "let's see some more stories that involve a female hero."
This is getting a little heated. Everyone take a deep breath and chill. Remember the rule "Be excellent to each other." If you can't stay (emotionally) cool with what you are discussing, then perhaps it's time to leave the thread. I am speaking to everyone here, okay? Fighting, flaming and throwing around emotionally charged terms like "Oppression Olympics" is troll-baiting/flamebaiting.
Writers should include gay romance as much as they want, but I don't think it matters. The whole point of the gay right movement is that their love life is the same as hetero couples. It's the same feelings and commitment either way. Being gay or straight doesn't change anything to what is happening in the romance. They could just roll randomly to decide sex and orientation of the NPC and it would be the same. Or make it so that all the NPC that romance can romance anyone. Personnally I think allowing polyamorous romances would be a more significant change. I don't want to choose between Neera and Jaheira.
I would compare the inclusion of racial/gender/orientation diversity in creative works to multilingual proficiency.
If you're fluent in one language only, you can't comprehend the outlook of a multispeaker, it's like having an extra dimension to operate within - e.g. spatial vs flat or flat vs linear. I'm sometimes accused of being a jerk, because I play my games, watch my movies, and read my books in English, rather than use translated works (it's a Special Olympics discipline in my country) - what I find most amusing when it happens, that my opponents claim I can't enjoy the work as good as they do, because I have to translate it in order to understand. It simply doesn't occur to them that maybe I don't need to translate anything, because I can think in English just as good as in my native language - it is beyond their life experience that such ability may even exist. And it doesn't end there, the thought process can quite expand, when it doesn't have rules of a single language constraining it. Heck, sometimes I notice I can't as effectively express my thoughts in conversation, because the language I'm using doesn't have a word for what I want to convey. Most annoying, ugh...
So, back to the subject, the scruffy white 30-years old straight male, rescuing a damsel in distress, is a trope indeed. And a very good one - perhaps the best in existence, in fact - else it wouldn't be so popular to persevere through time. But even so, it's like knowing one language only - no matter how good it is, you're still limited by similar kind of constraints I've mentioned above.
If you treat gender/orientation traits the same way you do height, hair color, aggressiveness etc., you're essentially allowed much more character customization options. The ability to build characters using an expanded set of options is always a plus. A black person may be harder to spot in the dark, but requires more protection against the sun than their white counterpart. A lesbian character may stab you in the back because your male protagonist stole her love interest who was secretly bisexual.
As for how to deal with reactions to such traits, it all depends on the setting you're writing for. If your universe is populated with predominantly four feet tall people, and you make a character eight feet tall, then the people they interact with are obliged to notice someone twice their own height, otherwise you suck as a writer. And of course, you also suck if that was your cheap way to make a character unique Likewise, you can't include a purple-haired lesbian half-orc/half-elf transsexual with golden eyes and expect nobody to bat an eyelid - unless the entire universe is populated by such individuals.
On the other hand, you can create a world where children grow on trees (*) and everyone is free to like and have sex with whomever they want. And it will be all natural, because it will operate within the world's logic. The only thing to be aware of, is to not stray away from the real world *too* far, else the audience might get lost in that stream of consciousness of yours.
To conclude, gender/sexuality/etc. should be treated primarily as extra tools to produce characters, not because a vocal minority demands some kind of quota of those in each work. Like any other tools, they require certain skill to be used efficiently, so better start small if you don't have any developed yet.
* - I actually saw it happen, in Twelve Kingdoms anime series, and after a couple episodes I stopped noticing anything strange about it.
Although in some rare cases, it does indeed feel forced, and mostly lip service (when their sexuality is ALWAYS the first thing you learn about them, and has no meaning after that),
It is really important imo, for everyone to feel represented in a game that is indeed trying to entertain.
I'm straight, and white, and, to be frank, i can't get into the shoes of the affected people that well, because i haven't seen the world through their eyes. I can imagine however, that they feel the following :
When this game world was conceived in the imagination of its creator, i wasn't a part of it. And that hurts, i agree, and i don't think that it is going to achieve entertainment for those people at all.
My equivalent example is games where i'm left out. Where do i get left out, you ask?
In every game where my favorite archetype of character doesn't exist, and thus i can't play it.
I like melee-magic hybrids(clerics, heavy armor and magic), and necromancy(death, undeath etc). Get the Death Cleric or its equivalent out of the game, and you lost me. For good. It's not necessary that i play like that, and i can still enjoy the game yeah, but it pisses me off. (I'm looking at you Dragon Age, pathetic excuse for a class and combat system!)
I imagine something equivalent for the LGBT community, but stronger, since this affects them more, and reminds them of real life prejudice as well.
And if possible, i would like this prejudice to not exist in the games they play when trying to entertain themselves away from reality.
Although, i understand that sometimes, suspension of disbelief and realism, need to be present in games as well.
So, some people in game should have some kind of reaction, unless LGBT people are not a minority in the game, because you know how uncultured people treat minorities. And there are a lot of uncultured people in fantasy, just as they exist in reality as well.
P.S. Irony - Dragon Age cares for the LGBT community, as they should. And they left my necromancy with melee and heavy armor combined out! Preposterous! >.>
At least they have the Knight Enchanter -.-
P.S.2 The fact that a lot of people are "straight and white" is not an argument against them, and cannot be used normally and logically as an excuse, for them to be left out of a conversation. This would be a really bad case of self-righteousness, and i encountered it a lot of times when speaking to "theoritically" progressives. It's arguments that should be answered, not people targetted.
How interesting, a quick observation, the pro-gay people here seem to be women and gay men, with an exception here or there. Some seem to be wiccans or perhaps even Laveyan or spiritual satanists. Aka the fAke ass rebels, which includes hippies and the whole rock metal scene and related styles, supposedly fighting the system, while their whole scene was created by the system. Its something the new generation of, actually well informed (would-be? But more than you will ever be) rebels, like me, call "controlled opposition."
Im not sure if there are actual agents here pushing it or if people here are just the results of this propaganda... I wouldn't be surprised if it was the prior. I just want to emphasize youre not a rebel, but a mere sheep... worse than the square folk most of you seem to deem yourselves better than... fooled worse by the same system which has been fooling people throughout history. Church? Vatican? Created by the Roman pagans in an attempt to keep the power centralized in Rome... ancient Rome and Greece, upon which your society/societies is/are based, was a great time for homosexuality and paedophilia.
You're their creation... I think its about time you recognized this.
How narrowminded, who said I'm Christian? Step out of that little universe which has been created for you. I'm not here representing religion, but true opposition. Awwwwww... too exotic for you? Live and learn son
@Jasko You've been spoken to before about following the site rules, and hate speech and obvious antagonism are both violations of those rules. You won't be warned again.
@Jasko You've been spoken to before about following the site rules, and hate speech and obvious antagonism are both violations of those rules. You won't be warned again.
I've had my say and you've absorbed my words..
I think I'm done here anyway, I've requested a ban, you shoulda granted my request.. cause all I have in store for sheep is ownage.
Go for it. See y'all in World War 3, North and South Korea, keeping my fingers crossed.
I think it's good when a game lets me hit on other ladies when I play it, the real problem is that video jane writers are mostly Z-listers who wouldn't make a buck if they were selling centaur erotica on Amazon.
Comments
And the problem with the Trope that @Nonnahswriter mentioned isn't that it's a trope, it's that it's handled in a very lazy way, generally. It's "Oh, character X was popular, let's make our own version of that!" instead of thought being put into making the new character have character in some way different from the one they are copying. Those sorts of characters can even still be done well… don't get me wrong there. But mostly, they are shortcuts to pump out another bland game with the same bland protagonist. The genius is in making that character actually stand out in some way from the crowd, and most game devs don't even TRY.
This is one of the things that is killing the videogame industry, where identity politics are more important than making a GAME, the purpose of which is to ENTERTAIN.
Must we cram this into every corner of videogames lest we be called something worse than an ISIS of Hitlers to shame and silence those who disagree: racist? Misogynist? Transphobic? Homophobic? You can call me those if you like; they mean nothing to me, especially after a year of being labelled as such when I am, in fact, not.
Organic diversity is what should be striven for, not this forced diversity, done as if trying to fulfill a quota. That's tokenism, besides. Pandering like this will not advance videogames anywhere, and it will not do them any favors sales-wise either (see: Sunset). Inserting these politics into videogames for the sake of progressiveness is a fruitless endeavor. The widest swath of the gaming audience will make sure of it.
Hitler, check.
I mean, if you're just going to voluntarily forfeit any real need to be taken seriously, what's the point of posting in the first place?
Just because the reference flew right over your head.
https://archive.is/mRaoY
Why can't we make a GAME that is INCLUSIVE and still ENTERTAINING?
And the video-game industry isn't dying. Corporate game companies are still making millions of dollars, and with the help of kickstarter campaigns, now independent publishers are able to jump into the ring. We still have dozens upon dozens of game articles being written, communities discussing, jobs being created... None of that's going to shut down just because some people want to see themselves in a game. There's too much money and too many lives at stake. No one in this thread is calling anyone any of those names. I'm sorry that that happened to you in the past, but right here, right now, you've no reason to feel so defensive. The thing is, because of societal flaws such as systematic racism/sexism/classism, organic diversity is difficult to achieve. When you hear the word "Hero," what do you first thing of? Probably a man, who's white, rescuing a woman (straight), in a fit and masculine body. That is the White-Straight-Male archetype. That is what naturally occurs to people, and anything different comes off as jarring. That's why we have to force diversity. We have to actively go against the norm that is so ingrained in us, or there won't be any diversity at all. So you're going to use one example of a game that didn't do so well in sales and write it off as the number one reason why diversity in games is a bad idea? What about the Persona series, which regularly features an all-Japanese cast? What about Assassin's Creed 3, both versions featuring people of color? What about Mass Effect, an award-winning series that is praised for its sexual and racial diversity? Hell, what about games like Baldur's Gate and Skyrim and other RPGs that allow you to create your own character of almost any gender/shape/race/size/orientation... I don't recall any of these games doing badly in the bank, least of all because of their inclusiveness. If by the "widest swath of the gaming audience," you mean the thousands of men, women, people of color, LGBTQ people, young and elderly, rich and poor, abled and disabled... Besides, how are we gamers supposed to "make sure of it?" By not buying games? These are GAMERS we're talking about. I doubt very much that these people would stop buying for any reason, least of all over this. We love games too much; we wouldn't even be having this conversation if we didn't.
That being said, I don't think anyone is asking for quotas; the people who want more diversity are just asking for "more than there currently is". Even Anita Sarkeesian, whom GamerGate loves to harass, is only making an effort to shine a spotlight on some of the more damaging tropes, that are neither effective stories nor healthy images of women. She's not saying "never have a white male protagonist again"; she's saying "let's see some more stories that involve a female hero."
This is getting a little heated. Everyone take a deep breath and chill. Remember the rule "Be excellent to each other." If you can't stay (emotionally) cool with what you are discussing, then perhaps it's time to leave the thread. I am speaking to everyone here, okay? Fighting, flaming and throwing around emotionally charged terms like "Oppression Olympics" is troll-baiting/flamebaiting.
If you're fluent in one language only, you can't comprehend the outlook of a multispeaker, it's like having an extra dimension to operate within - e.g. spatial vs flat or flat vs linear. I'm sometimes accused of being a jerk, because I play my games, watch my movies, and read my books in English, rather than use translated works (it's a Special Olympics discipline in my country) - what I find most amusing when it happens, that my opponents claim I can't enjoy the work as good as they do, because I have to translate it in order to understand. It simply doesn't occur to them that maybe I don't need to translate anything, because I can think in English just as good as in my native language - it is beyond their life experience that such ability may even exist.
And it doesn't end there, the thought process can quite expand, when it doesn't have rules of a single language constraining it. Heck, sometimes I notice I can't as effectively express my thoughts in conversation, because the language I'm using doesn't have a word for what I want to convey. Most annoying, ugh...
So, back to the subject, the scruffy white 30-years old straight male, rescuing a damsel in distress, is a trope indeed. And a very good one - perhaps the best in existence, in fact - else it wouldn't be so popular to persevere through time. But even so, it's like knowing one language only - no matter how good it is, you're still limited by similar kind of constraints I've mentioned above.
If you treat gender/orientation traits the same way you do height, hair color, aggressiveness etc., you're essentially allowed much more character customization options. The ability to build characters using an expanded set of options is always a plus. A black person may be harder to spot in the dark, but requires more protection against the sun than their white counterpart. A lesbian character may stab you in the back because your male protagonist stole her love interest who was secretly bisexual.
As for how to deal with reactions to such traits, it all depends on the setting you're writing for.
If your universe is populated with predominantly four feet tall people, and you make a character eight feet tall, then the people they interact with are obliged to notice someone twice their own height, otherwise you suck as a writer. And of course, you also suck if that was your cheap way to make a character unique
Likewise, you can't include a purple-haired lesbian half-orc/half-elf transsexual with golden eyes and expect nobody to bat an eyelid - unless the entire universe is populated by such individuals.
On the other hand, you can create a world where children grow on trees (*) and everyone is free to like and have sex with whomever they want. And it will be all natural, because it will operate within the world's logic. The only thing to be aware of, is to not stray away from the real world *too* far, else the audience might get lost in that stream of consciousness of yours.
To conclude, gender/sexuality/etc. should be treated primarily as extra tools to produce characters, not because a vocal minority demands some kind of quota of those in each work. Like any other tools, they require certain skill to be used efficiently, so better start small if you don't have any developed yet.
* - I actually saw it happen, in Twelve Kingdoms anime series, and after a couple episodes I stopped noticing anything strange about it.
No.
That's not how melanin works.
(I mean, unless we're talking about the drow, here...)
It is really important imo, for everyone to feel represented in a game that is indeed trying to entertain.
I'm straight, and white, and, to be frank, i can't get into the shoes of the affected people that well, because i haven't seen the world through their eyes. I can imagine however, that they feel the following :
When this game world was conceived in the imagination of its creator, i wasn't a part of it. And that hurts, i agree, and i don't think that it is going to achieve entertainment for those people at all.
My equivalent example is games where i'm left out. Where do i get left out, you ask?
In every game where my favorite archetype of character doesn't exist, and thus i can't play it.
I like melee-magic hybrids(clerics, heavy armor and magic), and necromancy(death, undeath etc). Get the Death Cleric or its equivalent out of the game, and you lost me. For good. It's not necessary that i play like that, and i can still enjoy the game yeah, but it pisses me off. (I'm looking at you Dragon Age, pathetic excuse for a class and combat system!)
I imagine something equivalent for the LGBT community, but stronger, since this affects them more, and reminds them of real life prejudice as well.
And if possible, i would like this prejudice to not exist in the games they play when trying to entertain themselves away from reality.
Although, i understand that sometimes, suspension of disbelief and realism, need to be present in games as well.
So, some people in game should have some kind of reaction, unless LGBT people are not a minority in the game, because you know how uncultured people treat minorities. And there are a lot of uncultured people in fantasy, just as they exist in reality as well.
P.S. Irony - Dragon Age cares for the LGBT community, as they should. And they left my necromancy with melee and heavy armor combined out! Preposterous! >.>
At least they have the Knight Enchanter -.-
P.S.2 The fact that a lot of people are "straight and white" is not an argument against them, and cannot be used normally and logically as an excuse, for them to be left out of a conversation. This would be a really bad case of self-righteousness, and i encountered it a lot of times when speaking to "theoritically" progressives. It's arguments that should be answered, not people targetted.
Im not sure if there are actual agents here pushing it or if people here are just the results of this propaganda... I wouldn't be surprised if it was the prior. I just want to emphasize youre not a rebel, but a mere sheep... worse than the square folk most of you seem to deem yourselves better than... fooled worse by the same system which has been fooling people throughout history. Church? Vatican? Created by the Roman pagans in an attempt to keep the power centralized in Rome... ancient Rome and Greece, upon which your society/societies is/are based, was a great time for homosexuality and paedophilia.
You're their creation... I think its about time you recognized this.
Live and learn son
I think I'm done here anyway, I've requested a ban, you shoulda granted my request.. cause all I have in store for sheep is ownage.
Go for it. See y'all in World War 3, North and South Korea, keeping my fingers crossed.
Bye now
I don't have anything more to say on the topic of sexual diversity in games, but others certainly might.