How long would the BG saga take in PnP 2E?
Stormvessel
Member Posts: 654
in Off-Topic
I have been playing PnP AD&D for several weeks now and things are so slow. I have estimated that to play through the BG saga with a party of six in PnP, six hour sessions once a week, would take a lifetime. Just getting to the FFI would take forever. How long do you think it would take?
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The big thing is just that combat goes so much slower. But every discussion and character interaction would go slower as several players would have to say their part.
And of course decision making. For a number of players to decide where to go and what to do can take a while!
My usual rule of thumb in planning a game session is no more than two or three minor combats and one major battle in a game session. The amount of time on role playing, setting and story issues may slow down even more than that.
The difference in combat is just staggering though. A battle against six gibberlings may be resolved in two minutes on the computer, it would likely take half an hour in PnP (depending a lot on the party!)
Of course that also means the computer characters have A LOT more blood on their hands. Look at the number of kills on the info screen. No PnP character would ever do that!
On our last session, we picked up where we left off the week before, and on our way to do this quest we come upon a camp of scorpionmen. They have captives. We kill the scorprions and release the captives which takes about an hour. Once we release the captives we have to do an introduction (because one of the captives was a new PC who joined). On our way to complete the quest we stumble on a cave. Then it gets interesting. We end up getting separated in the cave and the DM has to give notes to each of us. This took freaking forever.
By the time we escape the cave it turns out one of our guys got knocked unconscious and was a no show, and I'm the Cleric and everyone else was pretty much wiped so I had to go back in and get him (and almost got killed in the process - I swear our DM has no freaking mercy). Long story short we get back to town the session was over!!! Six freaking hours - are you kidding me?
There has to be a better way of playing true D&D than this.
For experience, I've played in games that move VERY slowly, like four or more adventures to make 2nd level. But that's uncommon. Most DMs I know think you should gain a level every session or two until 5th level or so. Faster than that feels cheap. Slower gets tedious. And its all about those quest awards. That's pretty much entirely at the discretion of the DM. Was capturing the beast of the bog worth an extra 50 xp, or an extra 5000 xp? The answer is wholly at the DM's whim and it determines how quickly everyone will level.
Even the Infinity Engine games vary on this, compare the leveling between Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate! They were obviously written by different DMs.
If its really a problem with your gaming group you can try to talk to your DM about it. Or someone else can run a game that has a very different pace to it.
I know back 35 years ago (!) that's how I got started. Several of us were playing in a game where we never seemed to get anywhere, never got any loot, never got much experience. So I decided to run my own game that wasn't so stingy. Of course I made the complete opposite mistake at first and the party was all powerful by the end of the second game session.
But live and learn. Everyone is usually happiest between the extremes. I think I eventually became pretty good at it. I think the other guy works for Wizards of the Coast, so obviously he no longer takes gaming seriously....
When I was in high school in 1981-1983, and personal computing was in its infancy (most people didn't have a personal computer and didn't see any use for one), I thought D&D tabletop gaming was the coolest thing ever invented, and I continued to think so through college, until I stopped playing in 1990ish when I started working full time.
Fast forward to 1997-2000, and all of a sudden there was Might and Magic 6-8 and Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. I could have the same cool experience of playing D&D, all by myself, and the play moved along so much faster and more easily.
I tried to get back into tabletop playing with a group of my peers (middle-aged men) a couple of years ago, and I quit after three four-hour sessions - three *long*, *boring* four-hour sessions where basically nothing happened except a bunch of guys were sitting around a table and ignoring their spouses. (The GM had two small kids that kept tugging at his sleeves and getting sent away from the table.)
In the game, it took those 12 hours of play time to figure out how to cross a river, roleplay several "messing around" type of comedy role-play exchanges, find a house, talk to the owner, and then find a secret door leading downstairs. That's it. Three evenings, twelve hours total of my time, and not one combat.
I thought, "Yeah, I'll just stick to computer games." I do remember our combat-heavy sessions in high school, though, and I know I wouldn't want to go back to that. Combat resolution was very slow. "Roll for initiative "Player a has a goblin on him, player b has two goblins, etc."
"Player a roll to hit. Missed or did x damage. Player b roll to hit. Player c. Player d's spell goes off. Player e roll to hit."
"Goblin x rolls to hit. Missed or did x damage."
On and on, very, very slow process, and heaven forbid if anybody wanted to try a special action like grappling, throwing an object, or to cast a new spell the DM didn't know.
But managing such a game is challenging. I guess I'm pretty focused about it; but then I also insist on no kids during the game session, and that definitely complicates scheduling and who's available. Bottom line is, we just don't game very often anymore!
And the computer is vastly better for when you just have half an hour in the afternoon and what to get just a little something done. You can't do that with the gaming group!
I personally find combat less interesting in PNP, and enjoy the roleplaying aspect more. When I played we kind of avoided the "party random encounter vs 6 gibberlings" and made combat a rarer (and more dangerous) occurrence. We gained experience by session and accomplishing goals, rather than vanquishing foes. I guess that takes away the tediousness of combat. In the computer, however, random encounters can be fun and combat is usually the highlight.
Basically the computer is better for convenience, but I find PNP to be more enjoyable and wish I had more opportunities where I am to actually play. My friends aren't really the type to play D&D, and it probably wouldn't be the same with strangers.
With a CRPG, once you've played the game once you're unlikely to get any major surprises. But in a PNP game it feels more like anything can happen.
I am still fairly new to PnP D&D but I can tell you already that rules and character building are mostly secondary. D&D is all about the interaction. Just knowing that anything can happen. When you play D&D on the computer you exist in a very limited world. You exist within the confines of a pre-developed world. When you play true D&D there are no confines. It's truly open ended, as you feed off each other's imagination. And in my mind's eye I can see it all play out.
I guess I am lucky that my first experience is with a DM who really knows what he's doing and with players who have done it before, but it's truly incredible.
Yes, I wish it would go faster. Yes, I was complaining about it up top. But in terms of potential, PnP offers things computer D&D can't even dream of offering, even if it does take way too long to obtain them.
So things like choosing proficiemcies and spells, and how you use them, is still hugely important. It's just that the more open nature of PNP can lead to more odd or unexpected choices.
With the computer those choices are more cut and dried, more purely mathematical. PNP is more likely to reward creativity and purely social decisions.
If you want a bench mark, take ToEE as an example. That encompasses something like 4 modules? Give each module 4-5 gaming sessions at minimum and you are talking 20-30 weeks of game play. That's brutal (though it was fun when we did it in my old group back in the day). And ToEE is no where near as robust as BG Saga in it's entirety.
Yeah, it would be a LONG haul.
Barbarian = 1d10+2
Fighter = 1d8+2
Cleric = 1d6+2
Thief = 1d4+2
Mage =1d2+2
Con bonuses applied afterward of course.
Another thing I will change is XP. Players will all get the full XP amount for every mob. If the mob wasn't killed, they get half. No more killing blow only XP or XP divided by party.
Another thing I will change is the tedious stuff. One level of encumbrance only. Water and food weighs nothing. Spells and abilities after every 8 hour rest (as opposed to once every 24 hours). More HP regained after resting and double the amount if a Cleric is in the party. Etc. Etc.
There are literally several things that can be changed to make things go smoother and faster. And the more experience I get playing the game, the more ideas I have for when I eventually become a DM.
I think I am going to be a good DM. I will make little handouts to pass out before each session showing the map and important things of note. I will create a party journal and pass out journals to each member. D&D has the potential to be so fun. And you will get out of it what you put into it.
Don't be shy about modifying things as you go too, just always communicate what you're doing (players do hate surprises! At least the ones paying attention, every group seem to have a few who are just there for the company).
Some are somewhat familiar with dnd, but none have seriously played tabletop before, and two are serious gamers so they pick up quick, the rest, at the risk of being politically incorrect, are girls. As the only one familiar with the rules I am the de facto DM, and no one has any official books. New ones are expensive, and honestly, I have some serious issues with some particulars of the system. So taking To the next level, I wrote my own edition.
I present you: D&D, Meagloth Edition!
yeah.
Anyway, on topic, I'm gonna try and move quick, and favor roleplay and imagination over dice. I know most of you won't click that link, and no one will read the whole thing, so as a synopsis:
I added 2 stats, comeliness and athletics, and changed modifiers and what they modify.
I changed armor, adding Damage resistance.
I changed inventory management to match real people. I think encumbrance tops out around 150, and i also have a volume system.
Classes start with different HP rolls, and classes gain 1d2 HP/lvl, or 1d3, in the case of fighter types. However, I added a lot more AC/DR bonuses. This way hits don't happen very often, but when they do they're very serious. I felt this is more realistic.
The setting is essentially Europe. I drew a map, but I might just use a 1500 map of Europe. i always thought it was a bit silly how nations in games are obvious mirrors of real life cultures, but they change thy name and pretend they're not. Besides, everyone already knows the ins and out of these cultural relationships, and it makes the languages seem less fake. I'm not Tolkien, I can't make up my own language in a month.(Kooky root words have always bothered me. One of the reasons I like Tolkien so much.)
Heres an example character sheet:
ok. now that thats sorted, ill try and be relaxed. There a lot of rules that probably don't need to be. like, if Mage 1 casts sleep and it gets everyone, Fighter can slit all their thoughts. No need to roll for damage. I'll also try and talk through combat in a storytelling way, rather than hit or miss. example:
DM: the goblin charges and jumps for your head, sword raised high
Fighter: i parry at my head and jump out of they way
DM: right. the goblin lands and-
Fighter: I lung at him while he's landing
DM: ok. he's moving so he can't block. roll at +5 THAC0.
*17*
DM: ok, roll for damage
*12*
DM: alright he's incapacitated and will bleed out in one round. His Brother sees this and jumps out of the bushes at the mage
etc...
I feel like that will be more fun, quick, and more realistic than just rolling it out. I'm big on realism, if you hadn't noticed yet.
I also want to try and avoid combat. I was reading a PDF of the 5e monster manual and that thing is absurd. they have every monster under the sun and his sister. Why are there so many of these things? why do i need to kill it? why are they all inherently evil? how did roads get built?
the world crawling in monsters just doesn't make any sense. Im gonna tone down the Uber-fantasy. Its just a little over the top for me. I'll try and make most of the combat have a good reason, and a realistic feel. I want the characters wondering if they made the right choice afterwards, rather than "oh, its just a goblin. I can kill it for the XP"
Anyway, back to the topic. I read your post and checked out your link, but I'm afraid I can barely read your handwriting!
Such players will often do a lot to bring your setting to life. I've had one friend play Paladins who has no particular interest in combat, but loves the idea of standing for the right thing. My wife plays a fighter/thief who prides herself in being the party's scout and excels at getting the Intel in every situation. This can really make things FUN! They are engaged, even when they aren't into the details.
And you know there's always a few players figuring all the numbers and the stats. I let those guys take some of the work load. Have them help the other players. It makes your life easier AND it helps keep them happy.
"Matilda, who insists on being called Tilla, was born to a wealthy common family in England, and moved to Venice when she was 10 for reasons her parents never explained to her. There she was trained in music and dance, as well as many languages. Her mischievous attitude thought her a few other skills, and growing up with 5 brothers she insisted on being trained in combat. Despite this, she always hated her home, saying her father was a neglectful businessman and her mother was an overbearing wench. Apparently, when her parents tried to Mary her off to a local noble, it was the last straw. She snuck off onto the first ship she saw in port that night, which took her to munchen. Though she seems to be handling herself pretty well few a recent runaway lass..."
eta: sorry, I can't find it right now...but I remember there being a huge thread on the subject. I might have a proper look later but I don't have time right now.
@iKrivetko
It's for monks only. Instead of having their fist damage level up, I gave them a special set of "fist" proficencies. I though it was simpler than having a bunch of special stuff to keep track of for monks. Anyone can take the hand to hand styles, but only monks can use batman.
I had a little fun with some names. You notice the proficencies now go proficient->specialized->mastered->grand mastered-> super amazeballs awesome.
Back to the topic.
I just finished the Black Pits with a badass sorcerer and am wanting to start BG2 with him. But I don't feel right about it unless I play through the first game (and also for the Tomes which I don't need cause I'm a sorc - OCD). So I am blazing through the game with the canon party.
I have noticed it's actually not that long of a game if you stick to the main quest and go from point A to point B (of course even that would take forever in PnP). I just have a habit of uncovering the entire map on every map, talking to everyone, pickpoketing, stealing, selling and stealing, etc. And then once I hit level 5 I do the tower.
This time I am just blazing through. I will only deviate for the Tomes, and the Tome of constitution is really the only one out of the way unless you count the tower. I do the tower usually anyway but that damn constitution tome is so far out of the way it's annoying.
In any case, I estimate I will be through with the game in 12 hours of gameplay. If anyone has any tips on how to get through faster, I am all ears. I prefer sticking with BG2 now and only ever play the first one for trilogy runs. Again, OCD. Any tips on how to get through it faster would be welcome. I thought about EE keeper and boots of speed for everyone. I also thought about putting the FPS to 200 or something insane along those lines. I just want to take my sorc to BG2 and can't wait, dammit!
But agreed, I would love to see more women play games like these. I wish it were more socially acceptable (for both genders for that matter) than it is. Although I had a blast (and now intend to go every year that I can), it was pretty clear that the locals looked at us like a bunch of, well... Geeks. Which was fine. I was in my element and thoroughly enjoyed it.
As far as speeding through the game, do some research on speed runs. I want to say that the record is under an hour, but I am not sure how much of the actual game you get to see on the way.
Basically I've replaced all the crap I don't like in AD&D (bye bye exceptional strength and THAC0) with the much smoother and logical systems of Third Edition. I would like to scrap NWPs too in favour of skill points but that'll be for another time maybe.
As a side note, there is a mod out there somewhere that purports to convert BG2 to 3e. It did HORRIBLE things (in my personal and subjective view) to the game and made it nigh unplayable. I like both versions (I like 2e better, but still like both), but the mish-mash of the two did NOT sit well with me. And that mod really highlighted some of the dangers. You should check it out if you have the stomach for it. I uninstalled the mod after about 2 hours of play because I hated it (subjective) that much.