Ch 5 NPCs Need Some Major Adjustments
MilesBeyond
Member Posts: 324
Here's the deal. The NPCs available in Baldur's Gate (the city, not the game in general) really need some sort of change. Why, you might ask? Well, let me tell you.
First, their stats are ho-hum and they don't come with any interesting goodies. The only Ch 5 NPC with good stats, in my books, is Skie. Everyone else is average at best. Tiax has got lovely CON but the lowest DEX of all the Thieves in the game and the second-lowest WIS of all the Priests in the game. Alora is the opposite: Amazing DEX, but her CON is so rubbish that she's got basically no health (like, we're talking Mage-level health here). If you were wondering who has the lowest WIS of all Priests, it's Quayle, who aside from a good DEX (for a non-thief or fighter, anyway), doesn't really offer much of anything at all.
Plus, Skie, Tiax and Alora all suffer from the same illness: Late-game thieves suck because most of their points are already distributed, quite possibly into things you don't want or need. In BG:EE, with the extra thieving abilites from BG2 added in (Move Silently, Detect Illusions, Set Traps), this will become even more egregious.
"But Miles!" you cry. "Stats are over-rated anyway! And if you're not a power-gamer, who cares? Plus, they have all sorts of nifty bonuses! Like Quayle can cast divine and arcane magic! And Tiax's DEX may be lower than other thieves, but it's still pretty high!"
You're right. You totally are. Unfortunately, we're just getting started.
Here's the thing: Even if they were the best NPCs in the game, they still wouldn't be viable options because you've already spent most of the game pouring into the NPCs you already have - levelling them up, giving them the best equipment for their role, finding out how to best use them. You're invested in them. Are you really going to give that up because you've just run into someone with a couple of better stats? And that's if they were given a stat boost. As it stands now, you're not getting much of anything in return.
Because odds are, you're going to have completed most of the optional areas by the time you reach Ch 5. And if you haven't, they'll likely be so easy as to be boring due to over-levelling if you do them in Ch 5.
So they're mediocre NPCs who you're probably not going to want to swap anyone out for.
But wait! There's more!
They're not the easiest to find, either. Quayle is easy enough, sure. Most players will probably find Tiax, but he is just some random Gnome sitting on the streets of Baldur's Gate. He's not too difficult to miss. Alora is a different matter entirely - you've got to be wandering around the Hall of Wonders at night to find her. Considering how I know a few players who've never even been inside the Hall of Wonders at all, it's altogether likely that a lot of people have played the game without ever knowing of Alora's existence.
And then there's Skie.
An NPC whose existence you won't even be aware of unless you've got Eldoth in your party (and he's not a terribly popular NPC either), much less be able to recruit.
AND, as if all that weren't enough, all four of the Ch 5 NPCs seem to regularly top lists of "Most Annoying NPCs." I personally love Tiax, and have a soft spot for Alora, but I can see why others would dislike both of them. Skie and Quayle have basically no redeeming features as far as personality goes.
So... Basically the entire deck is heavily stacked against these NPCs. Let's look at the pros:
Tiax and Quayle offer class combinations that aren't available on any other NPCs (though in my books, Cleric/Mage, even when it's a Cleric/Illusionist, isn't a very attractive class. But I've already discussed that to death elsewhere. Cleric/Thief is pretty cool, though, and has a lot more possibilities than one might think).
Tiax and Quayle (especially Tiax) have cool special abilities
Skie is, overall, the second-best thief in the game, only losing to Imoen (but, again, pre-distributed skills makes for a crappy thief, regardless of stats)
But none of those are really enough to even come close to outweighing the cons.
Some people say "Hey, I know! If we give them some stat boosts, they'll be worth taking!" But like I said earlier, even if they had the best stats, that still wouldn't make them viable, in my books.
OR, a much BETTER option in my books, keep the late-game NPCs as they are now, and make them available earlier on! We're more than happy to adventure with less-than-perfect NPCs if we can pick them up early enough (heck, just look at Khalid and Jaheira. I'd definitely take Tiax over Jaheira if he were available early enough). You normally have to do a fair bit of leg-work to get a non-evil mage, or a cleric period, but shunt Quayle in the area S of the Friendly Arm Inn and you've got something of both. Stats really aren't that big a deal.
The way it stands now, basically the only reason why you'd pick up a late-game NPC is if you have specifically planned out your game well in advance to include those late-game NPCs, and in the process rush as quickly as you can to Chapter 5. How many people do you think do that? Sure, some players say it adds replay value by making a party based around them, but if they were available from the get-go, you would still have the replay value of basing a party around them, as well as being able to pick them up normally in serious playthroughs.
I can only think of a couple changes you'd have to make:
Lower their starting level (duh)
Delay Tiax's special ability until a later level (Being able to summon a Ghast in Chapter 1 would be... Anyway)
Add new circumstances for Skie (i.e. she's out for a saunter in the wilderness with some of her father's guards, instead of being in his mansion).
I personally think Eldoth, Faldorn, and maybe even Coran could benefit from similar treatment (with Eldoth and Faldorn having their abilities delayed similar to Tiax, of course). Yeslick... It's hard to say. He'd definitely benefit, but seeing as how he's kinda important to the Cloakwood Mines, maybe not. Plus the fact that he's the only good-aligned Priest in the game (with some not-too-shabby stats, to boot) will still likely make him a viable NPC for a lot of players.
I know that some of this is already done with the BG1 NPC Project, but it's something that I would really love to see in BG:EE. I think it would allow these NPCs to get a lot more playtime and open up their possibilities to new players.
I know, I know, it's probably not allowed. But a man can dream, can't he?
First, their stats are ho-hum and they don't come with any interesting goodies. The only Ch 5 NPC with good stats, in my books, is Skie. Everyone else is average at best. Tiax has got lovely CON but the lowest DEX of all the Thieves in the game and the second-lowest WIS of all the Priests in the game. Alora is the opposite: Amazing DEX, but her CON is so rubbish that she's got basically no health (like, we're talking Mage-level health here). If you were wondering who has the lowest WIS of all Priests, it's Quayle, who aside from a good DEX (for a non-thief or fighter, anyway), doesn't really offer much of anything at all.
Plus, Skie, Tiax and Alora all suffer from the same illness: Late-game thieves suck because most of their points are already distributed, quite possibly into things you don't want or need. In BG:EE, with the extra thieving abilites from BG2 added in (Move Silently, Detect Illusions, Set Traps), this will become even more egregious.
"But Miles!" you cry. "Stats are over-rated anyway! And if you're not a power-gamer, who cares? Plus, they have all sorts of nifty bonuses! Like Quayle can cast divine and arcane magic! And Tiax's DEX may be lower than other thieves, but it's still pretty high!"
You're right. You totally are. Unfortunately, we're just getting started.
Here's the thing: Even if they were the best NPCs in the game, they still wouldn't be viable options because you've already spent most of the game pouring into the NPCs you already have - levelling them up, giving them the best equipment for their role, finding out how to best use them. You're invested in them. Are you really going to give that up because you've just run into someone with a couple of better stats? And that's if they were given a stat boost. As it stands now, you're not getting much of anything in return.
Because odds are, you're going to have completed most of the optional areas by the time you reach Ch 5. And if you haven't, they'll likely be so easy as to be boring due to over-levelling if you do them in Ch 5.
So they're mediocre NPCs who you're probably not going to want to swap anyone out for.
But wait! There's more!
They're not the easiest to find, either. Quayle is easy enough, sure. Most players will probably find Tiax, but he is just some random Gnome sitting on the streets of Baldur's Gate. He's not too difficult to miss. Alora is a different matter entirely - you've got to be wandering around the Hall of Wonders at night to find her. Considering how I know a few players who've never even been inside the Hall of Wonders at all, it's altogether likely that a lot of people have played the game without ever knowing of Alora's existence.
And then there's Skie.
An NPC whose existence you won't even be aware of unless you've got Eldoth in your party (and he's not a terribly popular NPC either), much less be able to recruit.
AND, as if all that weren't enough, all four of the Ch 5 NPCs seem to regularly top lists of "Most Annoying NPCs." I personally love Tiax, and have a soft spot for Alora, but I can see why others would dislike both of them. Skie and Quayle have basically no redeeming features as far as personality goes.
So... Basically the entire deck is heavily stacked against these NPCs. Let's look at the pros:
Tiax and Quayle offer class combinations that aren't available on any other NPCs (though in my books, Cleric/Mage, even when it's a Cleric/Illusionist, isn't a very attractive class. But I've already discussed that to death elsewhere. Cleric/Thief is pretty cool, though, and has a lot more possibilities than one might think).
Tiax and Quayle (especially Tiax) have cool special abilities
Skie is, overall, the second-best thief in the game, only losing to Imoen (but, again, pre-distributed skills makes for a crappy thief, regardless of stats)
But none of those are really enough to even come close to outweighing the cons.
Some people say "Hey, I know! If we give them some stat boosts, they'll be worth taking!" But like I said earlier, even if they had the best stats, that still wouldn't make them viable, in my books.
OR, a much BETTER option in my books, keep the late-game NPCs as they are now, and make them available earlier on! We're more than happy to adventure with less-than-perfect NPCs if we can pick them up early enough (heck, just look at Khalid and Jaheira. I'd definitely take Tiax over Jaheira if he were available early enough). You normally have to do a fair bit of leg-work to get a non-evil mage, or a cleric period, but shunt Quayle in the area S of the Friendly Arm Inn and you've got something of both. Stats really aren't that big a deal.
The way it stands now, basically the only reason why you'd pick up a late-game NPC is if you have specifically planned out your game well in advance to include those late-game NPCs, and in the process rush as quickly as you can to Chapter 5. How many people do you think do that? Sure, some players say it adds replay value by making a party based around them, but if they were available from the get-go, you would still have the replay value of basing a party around them, as well as being able to pick them up normally in serious playthroughs.
I can only think of a couple changes you'd have to make:
Lower their starting level (duh)
Delay Tiax's special ability until a later level (Being able to summon a Ghast in Chapter 1 would be... Anyway)
Add new circumstances for Skie (i.e. she's out for a saunter in the wilderness with some of her father's guards, instead of being in his mansion).
I personally think Eldoth, Faldorn, and maybe even Coran could benefit from similar treatment (with Eldoth and Faldorn having their abilities delayed similar to Tiax, of course). Yeslick... It's hard to say. He'd definitely benefit, but seeing as how he's kinda important to the Cloakwood Mines, maybe not. Plus the fact that he's the only good-aligned Priest in the game (with some not-too-shabby stats, to boot) will still likely make him a viable NPC for a lot of players.
I know that some of this is already done with the BG1 NPC Project, but it's something that I would really love to see in BG:EE. I think it would allow these NPCs to get a lot more playtime and open up their possibilities to new players.
I know, I know, it's probably not allowed. But a man can dream, can't he?
6
Comments
1. The problem with making late-game NPCs available earlier is twofold. First of all, there are already seven NPCs available in the first few sections of the game (Imoen, then Xzar and Montaron, then Jaheira and Khalid, with Ajantis and Viconia literally one screen away from the FAI). Throw in Beregost and you have Garrick and Kagain too. Those are a lot of characters to sort through, especially if you're playing for the first time and don't know who any of these people are. Secondly, introducing Tiax, Skie and others earlier in the game wouldn't solve their stat deficiencies.
2. Let's say the late-game characters get stat boosts that make them "better" than the party you already have. RPGs such as Baldur's Gate tend to encourage emotional attachments to NPCs - even if Alora outperformed Imoen, I don't know that I'd drop the latter after going through five chapters with her. It's not always about who's the best NPC strategically speaking.
3. I've always thought the real reason you have late-game NPCs at all is because, depending on the difficulty level you're using, you can actually lose party members permanently (unlike, say, Dragon Age: Origins, where - barring a few specific scenarios - your NPCs can't get killed). So let's say Aec'Letec blew Imoen to pieces and Flesh Golems tore Safana apart; you're still going to need a thief for the mandatory segments of the game. Skie/Alora won't be the best thieves, but that's because you got the best thieves killed.
First, how many players, on average, keep going when one of their NPCs get chunked? I'd guess that over 90% just reload. There are players who will say "Well, crap, better find a new thief" but they're in the vast minority.
Second, making the NPCs available earlier does not negate this function in any way, shape or form. If Skie's available in Ch 1 or 2, you can still grab her if Imoen gets gibbed (Skie is substantially better than Safana, IMHO), you can just do it anytime throughout the game, instead of only doing it in chapter 5+
Lots of people play with SCS because the game is too easy. If you don't reload on a chunked character and take that 1hp level up for Shar-Teel, vanilla is a challenge enough. You'll think about it twice before pickpocketing, etc. Let's not remove that possibility.
One variation I had in mind myself was when your acquire Eldoth, instead of having to wait for Chapter 5 to go in Baldur's Gate to acquire Skie, Eldoth could slip in alone then after a cut scene would reappear with Skie.
Now you wouldn't be able to blackmail that guy for holding Skie hostage until you actually got into Baldur's Gate, but still, you could easily obtain Skie in ... Chapter 3 would that be? Which is a nice solid time to get an NPC normally reserved for Chapter 5.
Just a thought
It would not be organic if in a city filled with people, the only people to join your party happened to all have nifty, super-special quirks or abilities.
It keeps people's options open if by the time they reach the city, they do want a change. Or, maybe it's something for people to look forward to once they reach the city, if they've planned ahead on taking those NPCs.
Kagain is a well-loved NPC, but finding him for the first time requires pot luck, a good walkthrough, or a passion for looting people's homes. The fact that Alora isn't easy to find doesn't disqualify her potential to be a useful party member.
Also, Alora's low constitution really isn't that big a deal. People exaggerate low constitutions a sinful amount, I believe. Her relatively low strength might cause a bit more dispute, but - taking into account the fact that her strength is so low - why is she within range of being hit by enemies anyway? Didn't you give her a bow? (this point is unrelated to your post, I know; apologies. But this seems like a good place to vent on this particular issue!)
And finally; Tiax over Jaheira? I certainly wouldn't take YOU in my party, good sir, regardless of how early you were available :P
It's not organic at all if, in a city filled with people, the only people to join your party are all high enough level to bring down the Flaming Fist more or less on their own, and yet that's what BG2 throws at you. Sometimes you've gotta axe realism in favour of playability, and the Ch 5 NPCs are, for the most part, just not playable. Here's the difference: Kagain is hard to find, but he's AWESOME. And available early. See, the fact that Alora's hard to find alone doesn't disqualify her. It's just icing on the cake. What disqualifies her is that her stats are mediocre and getting a thief late game is a bloody crapshoot because you could very well be picking up a thief who isn't any good at the skills you need her to be good at. AND that to get her, you're probably going to boot out a thief who you KNOW is good at the skills you need because you've levelled them yourself.
And trust me, CON does make a difference. Thanks to the BG1 NPC mod, I picked up Alora in Gullykin instead of Ch 5. I happen to also have had Imoen. Alora started at level 4, 1-2 levels higher than everyone else in the party, and yet her HP was the second-lowest, after Xan. Imoen is consistently (at least) one level behind Alora, and yet consistently has an HP advantage over her that's in the double-digits! We're talking a lower level character, of the same class, with at least 12 hit points more!
But you know what? Maybe that's not just CON. Maybe what's doing that is the fact that Imoen did all her hit rolls at maximum, while Alora didn't because her first four levels were generated by the game. Yet another reason why late-game NPCs suck (though it generally doesn't apply to anyone who plays more hardcore - I'll confess I cheat a bit and bump the game down from Core Rules to Normal every time someone levels up).
If Tiax were available early on, sure I'd take him over Jaheira. Sanctuary + Draw Upon Holy Might + Shillelagh (or possibly Spiritual Hammer, not sure if it works) and you've got a pretty nice backstab. But then, I've never been much of a Jaheira fan in general.
I would use him literally every single playthrough if he was available earlier. And that's not just me being a fan of Tiax from a personality standpoint. He's just a really, really solid NPC.
Not once did I take a CH5 NPC with me.
That's the biggest problem with CH5 NPCs... I already grow attached to my party by then, there was never any chance I'd drop someone by that point.
I must protest your choice of arguments here:
"First, how many players, on average, keep going when one of their NPCs get chunked? I'd guess that over 90% just reload. There are players who will say "Well, crap, better find a new thief" but they're in the vast minority."
"You've got a point, but would this be something that applies to the majority of players? "
What I can get from the above is that you think that only the majorities are important, and the needs/wants of minorities can be completely ignored. Huh. Political incorrectness aside, please take a moment to ponder this: Players who love isometric, story-driven old-school RPG games are a tiny minority on the today's players market. If someone told you that BG:EE shouldn't be done, because only minority of all players would enjoy it, I'm sure you'd get up in arms about that.
So please let the 'minority' of BG players have their late-coming, crappy-stat NPCs that make the game alive for them, rather than grabbing them for yourself, leaving the streets of Baldur's Gate and forests of Cloakwood hauntingly empty.
But there does come a point where the majority does take priority over the minority, even within minorities. There's a minority who would really rather not see BG2 stuff being brought in to BG1. I mean, we can't dismiss them, but at the same time, sooner or later you gotta draw a line and say "Sorry, guys, we respect you and all, but we gotta go with something else."
I don't believe that only the majorities are important, but I do believe that the opinions of the majority should have a big impact on the decisions made. I feel like this is an issue where it's nearly impossible to take a stance without being a hypocrite to at least some extent, because generally speaking just about every "majority" becomes a minority when placed in a larger category.
If the majority of Texas wants something, well they're a minority compared to the rest of America. If the majority of America wants something, they're a minority compared to the rest of the Western world. If the majority of the Western world wants something, they're a minority compared to all of humanity, etc.
I don't want to start waxing political philosophy in this thread, but every majority is also a minority in some way. So, sure, Baldur's Gate fans are a huge minority in terms of the gaming industry. But what about the majorities within that minority?
1. The BG1 NPC Project (http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg1npc/index.php) has options to place Alora, Eldoth, Quayle and Tiax at locations accessible in chapter 2.
2. BG1 Tweaks (http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg1tweaks/) contains the option to make the Cloakwood areas accessible from the get-go, allowing you to pick up Eldoth, Coran and Faldorn more or less when you feel like it.
Both of these mods are modular and allow you to install only these particular features if you so desire.
With that in mind, this change already exists, and already is optional. I can't really see any need to make further alterations to it. The one NPC left out would be Skie, I guess as her plot and character concept is so tied to her location that it would require something of a rehaul to change. But if you really want her early on, you can always just manually spawn her where you want after grabbing Eldoth.
Still, I think that moving the NPC from late-chapter areas would leave those areas... well, not lifeless, exactly, as there's plenty of wildlife and average citizens populating them, but kind of, uh, lifeless-er? Especially in comparison to the earlier areas, which are now quite crowded with Quayle, Tiax, Alora, Skie, Eldoth, Coran, Faldorn, Neera, Rasaad and Dorn running about and bumping into each other and the 'old' NPCs. :P
The SCS mod offers a component to pick up the chapter 5 NPCs earlier in the game by relocating them outside of the city (you can choose which ones). That's what I use in order to try the BG city NPCs.