Should we re-balance BG:EE?

Silence

As any discussion about BG:EE continues on this forum, the probability of the term 'game balance' being mentioned in that discussion approaches 1. This property I have named Beamdog's Law, which is oddly similar to Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law).

It appears to me that balance is a major issue for this community and for BG:EE (and for any other party-based, isometric RPG that comes after). Some people feel we should balance to the hilt whereas others just want to power-game in peace.

I figure it would be great if we could actually poll this and see what the numbers are. Who is for balance? Who isn't?

Tanthalas

Just for some more info to my vote:

Its ok for some classes to be better than others, the only adjustments that I think are really needed is stuff that is simply broken.

neur0

Tanthalas said:

Just for some more info to my vote:

Its ok for some classes to be better than others, the only adjustments that I think are really needed is stuff that is simply broken.

We voted for different options, but mean the same thing. The wording of those 2 options could have been better but nevermind as long as broken things in terms of balance are fixed in the game.

Dee

I wouldn't mind the Find Familiar spell getting a tweak. But I think I beat that drum plenty already, several months ago.

Jozape

I hope I can still abuse bows!

Dee

@Jozape Hey now, what you do in the privacy of your own party is your business.

sandmanCCL

Are there people in favor of rebalancing the game who were fans of the original?

Because part of the appeal to me is how I can totally make the game my b**** if I want. If anything, add more content that expands my ability to meta-game.

If I want to make the game "challenging," I already have to go out of my way. With a little AD&D and game know how, you can comfortably defeat every challenge in BG1 with clever use of potions, scrolls and wands. Chances are, that isn't going to get touched.

Tanthalas

sandmanCCL said:

With a little AD&D and game know how, you can comfortably defeat every challenge in BG1 with clever use of potions, scrolls and wands. Chances are, that isn't going to get touched.

Concerning this, the only things that are confirmed touched is "Summon undead" which uses BG2's version of the spell.

sandmanCCL

Values for the spells will run off the BG2 table, sure. But that doesn't affect Potion of Mirroring, Scroll of Protection from Undead, and Wand of Fireballs.

AD&D is and always will be horribly imbalanced. Even if you make druids and clerics on par with each other, or you tweak Kensais, or blah blah blah. Doesn't matter. Without reworking arcane magic, mages will always ALWAYS reign supreme.

Some of the things I see people asking to get rebalanced, I just scratch my head. People want X nerfed because it makes X encounter too easy. Then I think, "Uh that encounter is already mega easy because you just use this spell once and instantly the dangerous part of that encounter is already negated."

immagikman

To some degree I agree with @sandmanCCL on the other hand I think there are some pretty obvious unintentional balances that could be leveled out....but I dont think the game should be Balanced to the ppoint there is no difference between the classes/races.

sandmanCCL

I guess I should make this distinction:

I am in favor of making things that are clearly underutilized and UNDERpowered to get buffed.

I am against nerfing things that are "too powerful."

ryuken87

I only things I think need nerfing are the BG2 features (such as kits) which will be introduced to BG1. E.g. Shapeshifter and Jester can be a bit silly at early levels and I imagine Totemic Druid and Avenger too though I never tried them in Tutu.

I'm all for buffing things too in BG2, the same kits as mentioned above strangely enough, which all become a bit rubbish.

The thing that always annoyed me in BG2 was the druid's level and spell progression from 14-15. I know there is some D&D lore which explains it but in the context of the game it makes for a horrible character build. This is a shame because I otherwise love druid spells.

Lemernis

I'm fine with modded solutions to the balance issue. Just fix what's broken and leave the rest to the modding community. Install or not according to preference.

Schneidend

Some things pretty much require it, like the Monk and Kensai. Luckily, I believe Overhaul is working on the Monk. Not sure about the Kensai.

Underpowered weapon proficiencies obviously need new, more powerful variants. +2 halberd being the pinnacle of halberd technology? Absurd. Make one that's +3 and grants fear immunity. Clubs aren't magical? Unacceptable. UNACCEPTABLE! Needs a +1 and +2 generic, as well as a +3 with extra fire damage or something. Etc.

mcjarvis

Make all the classes fun to play. Game balance is a secondary concern to this.

Dee

@Schneidend I think Item Revisions does a pretty good job of making weapons and armor interesting without making them overly powerful.

Schneidend

Aosaw said:

@Schneidend I think Item Revisions does a pretty good job of making weapons and armor interesting without making them overly powerful.

Is that the BG2 mod that makes the Harbinger +3 NOT have a 5% chance to drop a fireball on hit? Because I hate that mod.

reedmilfam

I just want to see a look at some of the classes that are gimped (looking at you, Mage Hunter). Anyway, small tweaks, such as making kit abilities low-level appropriate and powering up around LvL 8 might make sense. If nothing is done to balance, I'm not going to cry about it, though. There are smarter people than me that have succeeded with all manner of classes and share their strategies on this forum, so I have help

Candramelekh

If you move BG1 on BG2 engine, you need to rebalance the game

Demivrgvs

I think they should just fix balance where it's clearly broken, such as Totemic Druid's Spirit Animals being absurdly overpowered for BG1 (so much they can beat the game by themselves). Doing a heavy re-balance work is much more difficult, and requires multiple iterations because re-balancing one thing often ruins something else if not perfectly tuned. Last but not least, vanilla game is supposed to follow AD&D, and such edition wasn't balanced at all.

Schneidend said:

Aosaw said:

@Schneidend I think Item Revisions does a pretty good job of making weapons and armor interesting without making them overly powerful.

Is that the BG2 mod that makes the Harbinger +3 NOT have a 5% chance to drop a fireball on hit? Because I hate that mod.

@Schneidend, may I ask you why?

Anyway, yes, IR's Harbinger is as follow:

Equipped Abilities:
Hellfire: 5% chance on each hit wielder must save vs. spell or suffer 20 points of fire damage
Combat Abilities:
Banishing: summoned creatures must save vs. spell or be dismissed
Demon Bane: additional +2 bonus to THAC0 and +8 to damage against demons
Starmetal: inflicts 4 additional points of damage against extraplanar creatures
THAC0: +1 bonus
Damage: 2D6 + 1

The 5% chance to drop a fireball has been replaced with another drawback (still appropriate for the weapon's background) because the random fireball was making this greatsword unplayable for most players. Protecting the entire party from random fireballs isn't easy, and this weapon is obtained very late in the game (Underdark), when players have access to much better items.

Tanthalas

@Demivrgvs

Sarevok and the demon in Durlag's actually raped my totemic spirits when I tried that. (though the rest of Sarevok's posse was ridiculously easy, Tazok apparently doesn't evne have a magic weapon, lol).

recklessheart

I see no reason to muddle with the original mechanics present in BG:SoA. They worked - we all loved Baldur's Gate, and we all still love Baldur's Gate!

I don't want every NPC to join my party with exactly the same XP as me.

I don't want Mages to level up at the same rate as Thieves.

I don't want every class to have their own version of Carsomyr/Staff of the Magi.

I don't want my level 1 Mage to be gifted with one thousand magical items to make him as valuable as my level 1 Fighter - I mean.. What's the fun in that? Then my Fighter can't enjoy the low level frivolity of cutting a Mage's head off without a second thought (or a first, in the case of Barbarians)!
At low levels, Mages are a modest investment. At high levels, they slam a meteor in the face of any moron with a battleaxe that tries to chop their legs off. It all balances out if you really think about it! :P

reedmilfam

@Tanthalas Is there any non-cheese way to deal with Aclectec the Nabassu in Durlag's? The most ridiculous fight I've ever experienced in an RPG. End of NwN2 is a close second.

Tanthalas

@reedmilfam

I'm not really sure. I know that I manage to kill the demon in Durlag's without much trouble in my BGT game, but I always play with Core rules.

Djimmy

I don't get all of this. What kind of balance are you talking about? Between classes, between party members and enemies...

If between classes, then yeah, the game should be more balanced.
If between party and environment(mobs, traps...), then it is fine the way it is.

reedmilfam

@Djimmy - I don't know. Jaheira keeps talking about 'the balance', so shouldn't we make her happy? Wait -that can't be done. High reputation = bad leadership. Low reputation = bad leadership. Middle reputation = bad leadership.
Yay, Jaheira!

Schneidend

@Demivrgvs
Hm, that's a bit different than how I remember an item rebalancing mod functioning, where it didn't add any of those other abilities and replaced the fireball drop with a 15% chance for like 4d6 fire damage on the enemy only. I do like the proposed change that still gives the wielder a chance to be smacked with some fire damage, because I like using the Harbinger with Ring(s) of Fire Protection/Control, Red Dragon Plate, and the Dragon Slayer helm so that not only will my PC be a crimson badass with an amber sword, but the fireball will heal me when it goes off. I liked the idea of turning the PC into a rolling hellball of a tank, casting fireballs at him from a safe distance. The other changes seem a bit TOO powerful, though.

@reedmilfam
I'm told the best spell to use on Alec'Letec is Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, which will take him out of the fight completely for a time. Kill all the cultists, and then surround Alec'Letec with melee fighters. Have all of your characters use Potions of Mirrored Eyes, since Alec'Letec's kill move is a gaze attack, IIRC.

sandmanCCL

Demivrgvs said:

The 5% chance to drop a fireball has been replaced with another drawback (still appropriate for the weapon's background) because the random fireball was making this greatsword unplayable for most players. Protecting the entire party from random fireballs isn't easy, and this weapon is obtained very late in the game (Underdark), when players have access to much better items.

Erm. The 5% chance to fireball was a drawback? We must not be playing the same game.

Why do you have to protect your entire party? I dunno about you, but I rarely had more than 2 devoted melee guys. I find it difficult in the infinity engine to roll with more than that because often my 3rd guy spent most the time jockeying for position rather than actually helping significantly.

So that leaves just 2 guys. Give the guy holding the sword the Red Dragon Scale, give your other guy fire-resistance rings, shields, helmets, etc. Pretty easy to do. Now your guy randomly causes AOE havoc! Yay havoc!

Having "much better items" I'll buy. But doesn't that mean give it a buff instead of making it worse?

Silence

The Harbringer +3 is great if you're soloing. It's kind of hard to plan around if you're in a party. I'd love to see a new version of it in the revisions mod.

@reedmilfan: I'm not Tanthalas, but maybe I can help. For Aec Lectec, I posted a blurb on how to beat him in an earlier thread, as have many others it seems:

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/44017/#Comment_44017

Someone there probably wrote about how to rock the battle. There was enough strategy in this thread for people to suggest a separate 'strategy' category to the forum. You can find out about other battles too.