Ever played a Fallen Ranger/Paladin?

theJoshFrost

In my current IWD game, an accidental quick save has led to my ranger character becoming a Fallen Ranger. So, I've had to go through the game with her like that. And upon reading a few threads on this forum, I'm curious now.

Have any of you ever played through BG as a Fallen Ranger or a Paladin, be it accidentally or on purpose?

Awong124

Doesn't that just essentially make them crappy fighters?

theJoshFrost

Awong124 said:

Doesn't that just essentially make them crappy fighters?

Probably. I'm not very good at Infinity Engine games, so really, every body is a crappy fighter to me. Except mages.

sandmanCCL

Nope. There is no benefit to doing so and I'm not into roleplaying failures.

Quartz

I would be willing to do it if they became like fighters, but they don't, they're still stuck with 2 proficiencies each so mehhhh.

RedGuard

If they both provided interesting roleplaying opportunities in the game (and a possible alignment change at some point) then I would probably give them a playthrough or two. However as it stands it just seems like all you get for being too mean/evil with those character sets is a substantial handicap for your troubles.

Awong124

Quartz said:

I would be willing to do it if they became like fighters, but they don't, they're still stuck with 2 proficiencies each so mehhhh.

Not only that, but their level progression is slower as well.

SFisch

theJoshFrost said:

Probably. I'm not very good at Infinity Engine games, so really, every body is a crappy fighter to me. Except mages.

Best comment ever. Seriously made me laugh.

The only time I've had a paladin fall was in Hell, when I accidentally took an evil path. I'm pretty sure I just Shadowkeeper'd them Lawful Good again, though.

WonKo

Unfortunately, there seems to be little of interest mechanically and very little to Roleplay with. Though in BG2 I think you can redeem yourself and regain your status so it might be fun to do in that case.

MetaSieg

Played as a fallen pally very briefly once. It's just terrible.

CrazedSlayer

Maybe A Paladin could cross to Blackguard now? God knows what a Ranger would do.

Charlytan

@WonKo Totally true, you can redeem your status in BG2, however, you can only do it once. So, if you screwed up a second time (which if you did, you might as well just consider rerolling a new class), then you were doomed.

Anywho! Piffles, I say! Personally, I enjoy playing Fallen Paladins.

Strategic-wise, the point of playing one is completely moot and could hinder your party more than benefit. However, I find it interesting for a selfless Knight to lose their way, or have been severely judged by others and shunned for an otherwise inescapable incident with a bad outcome. (Not including Anomen’s story. I thought his quest line was a little meh… lol, but it was funny to have him fail his trial.)

Not only that, but I tend to play as one, because that was the first class that I had picked. >.< I had no idea what a Paladin’s role was at the time, and killed an innocent very early in the game. I think it was that guy that wanted his ring back. (No one said I couldn’t kill him after returning the ring.) XD

WonKo

CrazedSlayer said:

Maybe A Paladin could cross to Blackguard now? God knows what a Ranger would do.

That would be a cool addition, particularly if it involved an extra quest or such. Though the idea of playing a neutral fallen paladin would be cool as well. Guess its more of a tabletop thing though.

RedGuard

WonKo said:

Unfortunately, there seems to be little of interest mechanically and very little to Roleplay with. Though in BG2 I think you can redeem yourself and regain your status so it might be fun to do in that case.

Yeah, but I wouldn't go around playing much if any of BG1 as a fallen Paladin or fallen Ranger just for that opportunity. I'd probably just start of BG2 being snarky and mean to everyone then go through the stronghold quest to redeem myself. Especially when there's no other benefit than a possible redemption quite a bit into BG2 and you are essentially handicapping by gaining the fallen status.

CrazedSlayer said:

Maybe A Paladin could cross to Blackguard now? God knows what a Ranger would do.

This would be interesting. I would like to see that possibility and if possible an equivalent for the fallen Ranger as well. Is there even an equivalent to the Blackguard for Rangers?

Delvarian

I remember when my brother and I first found out about becoming a fallen paladin, my brother was killing random NPCs or some such (as little brothers often do), and then we saw it on the character screen Fallen Paladin. We just about lost it in our excitement. It just sounds super badass. Then we figured out what it meant mechanicswise and the excitement faded quickly. I like the idea of playing a fallen ranger/paladin as far as RP goes, but it was just never much fun in game.

Gloomfrost

while it was blatant engine bending abuse it was possible to fall in the original BG engine just before hitting *** in weapon specialization and still have one protection from evil special ability and be still a full fledged warrior, but i don't think the BG2 engine allows for that..um cheat

reedmilfam

Except that there are black guards now. Would be cool if fallen pally's could totally fall. Not that I'd ever find out - I don't like the way evil characters are worked in BG/BG2. You can be evil without being an obvious homicidal psychopath. Except in BG/Bg2

Bubbleboy

I doesn't really make sense to me that paladins would get evil bonuses just because they fall or transition in to Blackguard, like Jedi transition in to Sith.
Their powers are borrowed like priests. If they fail their god, they are taken away, not convert to a corrupted version of it.

RedGuard

Bubbleboy said:

I doesn't really make sense to me that paladins would get evil bonuses just because they fall or transition in to Blackguard, like Jedi transition in to Sith.
Their powers are borrowed like priests. If they fail their god, they are taken away, not convert to a corrupted version of it.

If they transition to Blackguard then they should get the appropriate abilities of the Blackguard.

I sort of agree that a fallen Paladin or fallen Ranger shouldn't automatically get corrupted or opposing powers to what they had as a normal Paladin, but I think as part of the possibilities of roleyplay there should be an option to receive something like that if you choose as one of those characters to embrace a new path. Perhaps even serving another god that's more appropriate to their new alignment.

beerflavour

sandmanCCL said:

Nope. There is no benefit to doing so and I'm not into roleplaying failures.

Some might consider playing a Paladin (that is not fallen) a failure to begin with. ,)

beerflavour

Awong124 said:

Quartz said:

I would be willing to do it if they became like fighters, but they don't, they're still stuck with 2 proficiencies each so mehhhh.

Not only that, but their level progression is slower as well.

I guess this might be engine limitations. Just stripping a a Fallen Paladin or a Fallen Ranger from his powers isn't enough. You have to treat them like fighters henceforth but you can't just transform them into fighters, in case you redeem yourself and atone for past deeds.

If you really transform a Fallen Paladin or Fallen Ranger to a fighter of the same level then you have to adjust the experience points. Now some time later the character restores its previous state as Paladin or Ranger. You transform the character back and have to adjust XP and maybe levels. Dunno if there are clearly formulated official rules how to treat this situation.

Imagine your Fallen Paladin or Fallen Ranger would be treated as a true fighter. What about weapon proficiencies? If now the same fighter restrictions apply and not the Paladin or Ranger restrictions then that character could spend more than 2 specialization points into a weapon. What happens then if that character restores the previous state as Paladin or Ranger? Now transferring that character back could leave it with more specialized weapon skills than a pure Paladin or Ranger. What to do now? Redistribute the weapon proficiencies to again meet the class restrictions? Players are certainly going to object. You could leave weapon proficiencies as is. Now players might think: OK, I want a Paladin with better specialized combat skills. Then just temporarily lose the status to get some better specialization. If I'm begging hard enough the DM might restore the character to gain access to all powers again.

Schneidend

If there was something actually cool about being a Fallen Paladin/Ranger, I might try it. AD&D Rangers are based on Aragorn, though, which is the only reason they have to be "good." In 3.5 P&P a Fallen Paladin can exchange Paladin levels for Blackguard levels and get extra benefits, making it possible to be a single-class Blackguard despite Blackguard being a Prestige Class!

If Overhaul wanted to do up some quick DLC that lets Fallen Paladins either redeem themselves (in BG1) or become Blackguards and Fallen Rangers redeem themselves or become a new, non-Good Ranger kit through extra quest chains, I'd buy it.

GoodSteve

There is no equivalent of a "non-good" ranger. A non-good ranger is simply a ranger now. In later editions of the game they did away with that silly restriction of having to be good to be a ranger.

Rangrs actually made great Blackguards in 3rd and 3.5 edition. The Blackguard prc required ranks in hide and move silently as well as a fairly high base attack which the ranger fulfilled nicely. If anything the Fallen Ranger could simply also become a Blackguard.

Schneidend

Hence why they would make a new, Non-Good Ranger kit.
I don't think I'd want a Fallen Ranger to become a Blackguard. He'd still be sans Stealth, still wouldn't be able to wear that one cloak in TOB, and wouldn't have any Druid spells.