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Relocate NPCs that are only available in later chapters

KoreKore Member Posts: 245
Copy pasted from reddit: - http://www.reddit.com/r/FriendsOfBaldursGate/comments/rakr3/request_npc_locations_in_bg1/

Many NPCs; Eldoth, Coran, Fladorn, Skie, Alora, Quale, Tiax, Yeslick etc are not available in BG1 during prime party development and building time, i.e. early game.
Eg: I would love to be able to build my party around Yeslick, but I feel as though I have to take Branwen or Viconia instead since doing the first half of the game without a healer is a little rough.
Eg: It would be much more ideal to take Coran or any other thief earlier in the game so that you can tailor their abilities to suit your parties needs.
Various mods fix this already but it needed mentioning.


The discussion in the subreddit is a little off topic, so I won't copy paste that, but feel free to take a gander or post it in a different thread.
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Comments

  • KoreKore Member Posts: 245
    Oh yeah I agree that they shouldn't be available straight out of Candlekeep, but waiting till the bottom of Cloakwood mines for Yeslick means that you can't build a party around him.

    I much prefer the BG2 method of distributing NPCs. A few a scattered about, but there are loads that require you to go on an adventure like Mazzy or Valygar to find.

    It would break the personal stories a bit for characters like Yeslick and Skie to have them available earlier, but Skie could quite easily be in a hunting lodge or townhouse elsewhere for her safety if her father didn't think her safe in the Gate or just for a holiday and Yeslick could easily be held in a different Iron throne location or even as a slave mining advisor in nashkel mines. I don't think that it's inconceivable to have them in more quickly reachable locations.
  • EcthelionEcthelion Member Posts: 61
    I'm always waiting patiently to build my team as I continue unfolding the story around my character. Having all the characters available really quick will kill this process and I will be always wondering what team to have from the beginning. I really like the side of this part - the search for companions - in BG.
    But I am always little sad about the poor choice for elves / dwarfs / halflings NPCs...
  • KoreKore Member Posts: 245
    I agree that finding party members is part of the charm, as I said before NPCs like Mazzy or Edwin take a fair amount of questing before you get them to start with. If a more BG2esque method of NPC distribution was used then players would be more inclined to use NPCs like Alora who are not worthwhile by the time that you get to them.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    I agree with @Kore. There are NPCs in Baldur's Gate that I would have liked to play, but by the time I was given the chance to recruit them there were no vacancies in my party. It wouldn't have made much sense for me to ditch, say, Imoen for Alora that late in the game: I had already developed Imoen into a powerful, well-equipped character and emotionally bonded with her as a member of the team. Alora would have been weaker and largely unknown, with little gaming time left to "bond" with the idea of having her around. Same applies to Skie, Quayle and many others as mentioned by Kore.

    It's great to have characters scattered around, and some them requiring you to embark on a quest before they join you - but I'd like to get my party done before I'm halfway through the game, so that I have enough time left to develop them and fully enjoy them.

    Also, I don't like my party members to exhibit significant differences in character level and overall prowess / effectiveness / usefulness, but I realize that may be just me.
  • DrugarDrugar Member Posts: 1,566
    edited June 2012
    I believe there's a mod that redistributes several NPC's to other locations (Quale at the Carnaval, Alora in Gullykin, Eldoth along the Coast Way, etc) while keeping the story-specific ones intact (like Yeslick).

    I wouldn't mind seeing that happen, as I'm very willing to run a game with Alora or Tiax in the party (both? Why not!) but I'm not willing to drop partymembers that I've had for 2/3 of the game, whom I've probably started personal quests with, to get them.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 6,002
    I think it's allright to have those pcs way out into china town, i've used every single one of them at least once (except for quayle and tiax) but i think one of the main issues is when you can finally get some of those pcs ( especially the BG city ones) they are completely useless, like i love how quayle has invisibility once per day as a special ability but his stats are complete poop, its neat being a cleric/ illusionist but man, even in real life i could troll that fool in spell casting, and tiax, another joke, his stats are also complete garbage and completely useless and i believe he has some special ablitly ( summon ghast or some such, oooooooh no not a ghast an enemy that i can take out with my eyes closed and 20 at once, but i guess the thought was nice?) but anyways, i think that is what the huge problem is, those pcs who are way out to mars need to be useful i think most of them need a complete stat rehaul ( at LEAST two 17s in their primaries) and maybe be like edwin and have a special item that does something useful for them (although alora does have 19 dex and her lucky foot) but all the others need something like that, or make it so they have their own "hypethetical moonblade" a weapon that only they can use so they actually have some good use, because to be honest who in their dellusional mind would use xan if he didnt have the moonblade, here is some chap with the 2nd worst specialist mage class you can be (diviner being 1st worst possibly?) and just completely full of angst, that moonblade is what made him, because he be not shooting no magic missiles/ chromatic orbs/ lightning bolts/ fireballs/ cloudkills, and that just kills a mage if they cant do that shooooooooooo withe A.D.H.D. to the side, i would say, keep those pcs out there, just make so that they can still provide to be usefull when you get them that late, oh one more thing of A.D.H.D. one good idea came from another discussion about how when you find party memebers that are above level one they would just have the XP but still be level one so you could adjust them accordingly on their level ups, i think that would work a lot better ( even though that could destroy their story a bit a.k.a wouldnt make sense for adjantis to be level 1 if he was in the radiant heart for as long as he was and so on and so forth, and how yeslick would only be level 1/1 despite that fact that he's been around for years and years, and doing what? just picking his nose waiting for a group of thugs to come by and be like yo homes i've been picking my nose for a century or so, help me clear out these present thugs and i will join ya in doing so sorta thing)
  • AzL0nAzL0n Member Posts: 126
    Good points everyone. Nice post Sarevok. Here's my personal thoughts on this, I'll review every NPC's that you encounter later in the game:

    Eldoth: It has always seemed weird to me that a bard like Eldoth would be hanging out in cloakwood when he's on his way to Baldur's gate to capture his lover. I wouldn't mind to see him being relocated. Maybe in a tavern where a bard ought to be instead of the dangerous forest next to a big bear. Maybe the tavern in nashkel? Not the one with the crazy bitch cleric but the one southward with Volo in it. Although I wonder if that doesn't make too many NPC's too close to each other (Minsc Edwin and him) Maybe some other spot but I definitely see him hanging out in a town and not in the jungle.

    Ski: @Kore made a nice suggestion to have Ski out of the city maybe in a house of Duke Entar out in the woods protected by many guards and servants. You could then take Ski out to a tavern in Beregost for the ransom money. As it is Ski is the most useless NPC in the game but if you could get her on level one she would be on par with Imoen.

    Coran: I don't see him moving out of Cloakwood 1 because he's already strong enough when you get him (too strong actually) and because he actually fits nicely on that bridge in that forest. What do you all think?

    Faldorn: I would say the same thing as for Coran (Minus the too strong part she's way too weak.)

    Alora: @Drugar made a nice suggestion to have her be in Gullykin I think she would fit perfectly there. Also I find Gullykin to be way too barren, it needs some more stuff. Obviously her script would need to be rewritten for it to make sense however. I agree with @AndreaColombo that there is no point recruiting Alora that late in the game since Imoen is pretty much maxed out as a thief by the time you can recruit Alora. If you could get her on level one on the other hand she could be Imi's equal (More thief points but less health points than Imoen).

    Quayle: I agree with @sarevok57 to say that the oldest NPC should be recruited at higher levels otherwise it doesn't make a lot of sense. For that reason I say Quayle should stay in Baldur's Gate but he needs a better wisdom score to make him a useful character. As it is he's a terrible Cleric... a terrible mage too actually when compared with Edwin. Also I think that there should be at least one NPC to stay in Baldur's Gate.

    Tiax: He could be relocated pretty much anywhere. The fact that he can summon a Ghast would make him VERY useful at the beginning of the game and that would be a good thing because as it is he is not useful at all which is side because I love Tiax.

    Yeslick: Just like sarevok57 said and just like I said of Quayle, Yeslick is old and needs to be got at an higher level otherwise it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Some of you won't agree but I think he's perfect right where he is. He's part of the mine chapter and I think his personality and the way he speaks and everything fits perfectly as an ex. slave so I couldn't really see him anywhere else. I agree that it sucks to not be able to have him at the beginning since he's a really cool character but still there's a choice of two clerics and one druid right from the beginning so it's not so bad. I suppose he could be relocated though but I just don't see where. One of the new zones maybe? Any ideas?

    Very good topic @Kore
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited June 2012
    There's a mod for this available @ Spellhold Studios in the "miscellaneous released mods" section, BG1 NPCs at Beginning.

    The readme is in the spoiler:

    BG1 NPCs at Beginning

    A mod for Baldur's Gate Trilogy-WeiDU, by Anomaly

    Introduction

    Baldur's Gate has many NPCs available for recruit (as many as 25), but some of them are very far from the roads or can only join the group really late without real reasons, and because of that they are rarely used ; players already got their well-rounded party when they meet them.

    BG1 NPCs at Beginning is a mod for Baldur's Gate Trilogy designed to move many NPCs that are far away from the main road to Nashkel to allow them to join the party at the early stage of the game, except of course NPCs that are prisonners.

    The 11 moved NPCs are : Quayle, Kivan, Viconia, Ajantis, Faldorn, Alora, Tiax, Eldoth, Safana, Coran, Shar-Teel.

    The mod also takes care of altering the joining dialogue if the original dialogue cannot fit with its new location or the knowledge of the PC at that stage of the game. It also takes care of the timed quests, making sure they are still doable by increasing the allowed delay or pausing the timer until PC seems really on the road to do the quest.
    NPCs locations

    Here are the new locations for the moved NPCs :

    Quayle is on Crossroads, between Friendly Arm Inn and Beregost, next to the obelisk, wondering what direction he should follow.
    Kivan is on the same area, but more to the east, thinking about an ogre trophy.
    Viconia is at the Friendly Arm Inn, south to its walls and east of the Ring hide. Of course she is still followed.
    Ajantis is on the road at the Friendly Arm Inn, at the south west, and he is waiting for you.
    Faldorn is on the woods at the north west at the Friendly Arm Inn, looking toward Cloakwood.
    Alora is in the highest floor of the Friendly Arm Inn, stealing, of course.
    Tiax is in Beregost, near the town crier, the perfect place for the next world dominator.
    Eldoth is in the Red Sheaf in Beregost, trying to recruit someone to rescue Skie, and also to taste the local wine.
    Safana is in the Jovial Juggler in Beregost, looking for (or to) men in the tavern.
    Coran is at the exit of the Song of Morning Temple in Beregost. He has just be given a quest about Wyvern to hunt.
    Shar-Teel is on the road just south of Beregost, looking for rumble with a male.
  • AzL0nAzL0n Member Posts: 126
    @smeagolheart

    This mod is sloppy and I don't like it.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    edited June 2012
    There's four NPCs that need a change on the relocation point to preserve the game interest, and they're Skie, Alora, Tiax, Quayle.

    Quayle - can continue on Baldur's Gate Brigde, but does he need to be on the inacessible side? Just put him a little more down on the bridge and problem solved, but put him in carnival would be a lot more consistent.

    Alora - I like the Gullykin idea for alora, you can find her on early chapters there, or in chapter 6 (if i'm not mistaken) on the original place on baldur's gate. (same for any suggestion here).

    Tiax - I never made a playtrough with him, but find a crazy servant of cyric on the doorstep of the flaming fist... that's a lot strange. However, i dunno where to put him. But if ppl don't flame me for a little joke, he could be on the farm north of baldur's gate preaching to the zombies there the will of cyric and boasting himself as everyone there agrees with him with a "huhhhhh" (after all he's a stupid megalomaniac EVIL PRIEST cyric follower, what means he can control undead) some fun lines about that would be a LOT FUN
    Ex: "... Tiax: aahhh more faithfull followers come to learn the will of the might cyric, they probally heard that the might Tiax was spreading his word on these lands and come for the lore, don't you agree Brian?", "...Zombie: huhhhhhh".

    Skie - If i'm not wrong the caravan that Kagain had under his protection was carrying her brother or relative, if they fix the quest we can maybe find the boy and someone of the family would appear on kagain office in beregost to take the brat, someone of the family like Skie (the same relocation suggestion i made for Alora). After that they could stay on Beregost until chapter 6, when they shoud go back to Baldur's Gate if the main char don't recruit her (what can only be done by have Eldoth on the party)


    There's one NPC that should be relocated to preserve game consistence, and he's Eldoth (Nashkel Tavern would be nice, but a beregost tavern could develop some consistency if my suggestion for skie come to be used).

    Yeslick and Faldorn must stay where they are to preserve the consistency of main history.
  • AzL0nAzL0n Member Posts: 126
    edited June 2012
    @kamuizin

    The reason I suggested Eldoth to be in Nashkel's tavern is because there's already one bard in Beregost. If there's a new town in one of the new zones I say that's where Eldoth should be hanging out in a tavern. Firewine bridge could work too instead of that bard who tells stories.
    Post edited by AzL0n on
  • pacekpacek Member Posts: 92
    Besides the fact that there is no way they will consider this, I'm not in favour of moving anyone. Having all your possible companions served up early in the game is just gratuitous. The game needs a steady supply of new characters throughout the story. Think about new players. Companions die and your party requirements may change. Also, it just adds variety to pick up new people along the way, ditch those you get bored of. And how about when you want to dual class Imoen? Then you'll need another thief. Why then do you think the game designers gave you three of them to choose from in Baldur's Gate city? (And they just happen to be Evil, Neutral, Good).
  • maverickmaverick Member Posts: 27
    The point is that we already know the game, where and who the characters are (kits, race, alignment), and which one we're going to choose. So I would say yes and no. Yes because I understand people who want to have their favourite characters (especially for their specific kits) a little bit earlier but on the other hand no coz that makes the game more real to find NPCs during the adventure.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    As it feels to me when I play, by the time you get your party to Baldur's Gate the game is definitely in the last quarter. I usually do the expansion pack stuff in Ulgoth's beard and Durlag's Tower before I even get to Baldur's Gate so the main adventures I've got left are werewolf island, a few quests within the city, candlekeep and the final showdown. Reason I do most stuff before getting to Baldur's Gate is because there isn't a whole lot of gear to empower your character in the city but there is powerful stuff to be had in those other places that can tip the final battles in your favor and I don't see starting the final quests then jumping off to go explore a haunted tower.

    So when I get to Baldur's Gate I'm not looking for new party members as the game speeds towards the inevitable showdown with Sarevok. The finish line is in sight, why would you pick up a new guy for the last few feet? In order to consider using them for anything other than an emergency replacement, I'd need the BG city guys earlier: Quayle, Alora, Tiax, Skie.

    Do you guys do things much differently? Maybe rush to BG first? You've still got to go through several main quest areas to get there that are going to be somewhat difficult if you try and get to them without branching off on some sidequests.
  • RazorRazor Member Posts: 436
    edited June 2012
    Do you guys know what a story is? It does not change because you wish to see X character in at Y moment... Not a sensible request at all. "ex. Can I have Irenicus in the party I really like him..."
    With mods people are free to ignore the way developers wanted you to play but in the game itself asking this is ripping a piece of BG own soul away.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    Ppl don't die on BG, when that happen we usually reload (or if the person is trying to roleplay, we take all the stuff of the dead and go to the nearest temple), the party is not a random choice make of opportunities, but a rational choice that is made even before the creation of the main char sometimes. BG:EE will increase the banters and backgrounds of the BG NPCs if i'm not wrong, if they're going to do that, the four listed later NPCs are a waste of time cos we don't have time to develop their histories.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Do you guys know what a story is? It does not change because you wish to see X character in at Y moment... Not a sensible request at all. "ex. Can I have Irenicus in the party I really like him..."
    With mods people are free to ignore the way developers wanted you to play but in the game itself asking this is ripping a piece of BG own soul away.
    I think you're being a bit overdramatic here. I don't think moving Quayle to the South side of the bridge would affect the story or rip a piece of BG's soul out.
  • nulspacenulspace Member Posts: 100
    the four listed later NPCs are a waste of time cos we don't have time to develop their histories.
    that's assuming that: a) NPCs are only useful (i.e. not a waste of time) if you have time to develop their histories, and b) there isn't enough time from when you get to Baldur's Gate to do so. With the inclusion of TotSC I'd argue against the latter; Durlag's tower and the high-level areas included with the expansion can easily (and will likely) be left until later in the game (especially by new players).
  • RazorRazor Member Posts: 436
    edited June 2012
    @Tanthalas Why do you only mention quayle? Of course if he's still in the area it's ok. The problem is some NPCs that are really far from the begining moving them to a inn nearby just because.

    edit: I did say "a piece of" but ok we are not that off
    Post edited by Razor on
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @Razor
    I mention Quayle because he's an obvious case where moving him wouldn't have much of an effect. Tiax is another example.

    Other NPCs don't really have a reason to be where they are. Eldoth being in Cloakwood doesn't really make sense, a Bard alone in the forest when he already has plans for stuff to do in Baldur's Gate?

    Moving some NPCs would require some rewriting to be done (Alora and Skie for example), but it wouldn't be something that would rip the soul out of BG's story.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    @Nulspace whith all due respect in fact a NPC IS for me a waste of time unseless i can develop his history, at least in Baldur's Gate 2 that's true for me (cos in BG there's not much history to be developed on individual banters). I don't care if the character is power made or a commom status NPC, what pick my interest is the history behind the NPC, i don't ask to everyone think this way but i think.
  • ZaccaroZaccaro Member Posts: 39
    I feel that changing places for npc's won't really enhance anything. What I found to be one of the best experiences in the game was finding these NPCS that would join my cause. Were it evil or good. I love the fact you can find npc's all the way back to Baldur's Gate. True that in the original the question is how are you going to make them your level but this isn't old BG, we could get re-appearing mobs.
  • nulspacenulspace Member Posts: 100
    edited June 2012
    @kamuizin - i hear ya :) "different strokes for different folks" as they say
  • ElectricMonkElectricMonk Member Posts: 599
    Although I understand the argument, I don't think that relocating NPCs to earlier in the game is necessarily a good idea. I also don't think it would destroy the story to do so in most cases, but I like that in order to take on some NPCs you have to make the sacrifice of not getting them until late in the game. Also, it does make sense that you would run into possible companions throughout your travels. Although I, too, usually take care of Durlag's Tower and sometimes werewolf island before getting to Baldur's Gate, you can choose to wait on those things if taking those specific NPCs along with you to these places is that important to you.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 6,002
    i remember one time i went straight to bg the city and my team only had 10 000 xp each (it was kinda fun because he made cloakwood and the cloakwood mines hard as hell) to grab alora one time, and to get skie and eldoth once, and to me that was the only way to make it anywhat fun to have those pcs, and plus saving durlags tower and werewolf island for after bg the city could be much better if you get those pcs late, durlags tower has about 50 000 xp for each character there ( not including going back to ulgoths beard to finish off) and werewolf island has a crap load im assuming ( i rarely do that one since there is what, maybe 2 semi okay items out there plus im always at 161 000 xp when im done durlags tower) and then i think there is about 10 000 xp per character in the candlekeep area, so to have use out of all those late pcs, just go there right away, and do the werewolf and durlags tower quest later and i guess they could be allright, in fact just for spite, i think im going to make a team of quayle, tiax, alora, skie and eldoth and just do that, and see what happens, hardy hardy har :)
  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 375
    Leave it to the mods. I can see with hindsight that they should perhaps have given thought to this problem, but it would upset the game too much to move these npcs.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    I think I've had an epiphany about some NPCs's ingame location, yday, though I'm very well open to the possibility that my epiphany is in fact an epic fail.

    We always take for granted a party of 6 characters because that's the maximum the game engine allows and the number we're used to play. However, it is not mandatory to play the game with 6 characters. You can either solo it, or play with any number of recruitable NPCs.

    Let's assume you're soloing. You get to Baldur's Gate and suddenly find yourself in need of a thief for something. You could go find Imoen wherever you left her, OR you could simply recruit Alora instead. Just an example.

    In this case, Alora would be there mostly for convenience, and certainly not for plot related reasons. If the same can apply to all characters that can only be recruited later in the game, my epiphany probably makes sense. Or does it?
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    About thieves, you can't play the game without one, that's the biggest problem of a thief in BG.

    Monks can detect traps but not disarm (and for me it's a code fail, cos the game use pickpocket button as a base command to all thieve related actions, detect traps foresee the ability to disarm them, but with no comand to do this you can't disarm the trap). Priests also can detect traps by spell, but the game engine don't allow us to trigger the trap from afar, jump/avoid it or even use a summoned creature to trigger it.

    Wait until baldur's gate city becomes avaliable to recruit alora is impracticable.

    The questions above explained also are valid to difficults in make a solo playtrough.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    If Alora's in the friendly arm in and you need a thief in baldur's gate you can go grab here there and take her to Baldur's Gate.
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