Dual Classing

Zinodin

Small question regarding dual classing

Let's say I pick a Monk class. I become level 9. Next level I pick Paladin.

Am I then 9 level monk,1 level Paladin? Or did the levels just divide themselves at this point?

I figure it's the first, but some of the stuff I read confused me.

Shin

You can't dual class monks and paladins, but in principle you're correct. When you dual class you will start at level 1 in the class you're dualing to, and the class you left behind will stay at the level it was when you dualed. If you are level 9 and want to dual, you don't need to wait until you hit level 10, you can do it at any time.

sandmanCCL

1) You can only dual-class if it's a legitimate multi-class option. Monks and Paladins have no multi-class option, therefore your theoretical situation can't happen.

2) You need 15 in your base stat for your class (15 str for fighters, 15 str AND 15 con for rangers, 15 dexterity for rogues, etc.) and 17 in the class you want to jump into (17 WIS for cleric, 17 INT for mage, both 17 WIS and 17 CHA for druids, etc.) to have the option to multi-class.

3) After dropping your first class, the single solitary only thing you retain PERIOD is HP total. In all other ways, you are a level 1 at whatever your second class is.

4) Upon gaining a higher level total in your new class, you will regain everything else (thac0, saving throws, proficiency points, spells, abilities, etc.) Essentially, you will be identical to a multi-classed character of the same experience level.

5) You now only progress in your new class. So if you are a thief and you dual-class into mage when you're level 7, you will remain just a level 7 thief but your mage levels will continue to increase.

Zinodin

Oooh okay.

I got confused because Nalia is a level 1 thief and higher level mage. But in her case, her new class is mage so that's what she'll level up in?

Shin

I think Nalia starts with 4 thief levels, but yes, since she is dualed to a mage she'll only level up the mage class from the moment you get her.

Zinodin

Cool got'cha.

Thanks guys. You helped me out of a possibly awkward combat situation

sandmanCCL

Yeah, Nalia and Imoen in BG2 both are dual-classed out of thief into mage.

Dual-classing is still worth it and borderline overpowered in a many situations. You can gain a few levels in fighter for the extra HP and Thac0, then drop into mage even after just a few levels. You'll have 3.5 more HP per level on average (more if you have 17+ constitution). You'll usually only be off a single-class person of the same class by a level at XP cap, typically, so in the long run you'll be more powerful.

The biggest draw back to dual-classing is you have to be human. Humans are terrible from a meta-gaming perspective. If you are going to single class and you have the option to be any other race, you should pick it. Elves gain crazy bonuses to resist enchanting spells and are also deadlier with long swords and bows. Shorties (gnomes, halflings, dwarves) gain utterly ridiculous saving throws among other bonuses. Even half-elves gain some small bonuses to saves vs. enchantment so they are still better at single-class than humans.

I'm glad 3rd edition made humanity a legitimate option for power gamers. AD&D, the ONLY thing special about them was dual-classing.

Zinodin

Well, let's nerd it out a bit.

I was considering making a tank character, but my lack of understanding the rules made my choices very narrow.

I want to go Kensai/Mage, but I dunno if it's worth it. I mean, there are power-house spells that can make you a beastly tank, but I'm not sure how long the duration is on those spells.

And after a little back and forthing, I decided on a monk.

I love martial art, the unarmored part (I like my characters light), the high saving throws...

But yeah.. Thoughts?

The_New_Romance

sandmanCCL said:

I'm glad 3rd edition made humanity a legitimate option for power gamers. AD&D, the ONLY thing special about them was dual-classing.

And being able to be Paladins.

Silence

Well, humans also had the ability to advance to any level in any class. /cue long and painful discussion about racial balancing in 2nd edition.

I think we're all glad no one adopted the racial level limitations.

I think we're also all very glad no one adopted the 'magical items malfunction in the hands of dwarves' rule.

Shin

The kensai/mage is a famously very powerful and synergistic combination, able to deal with most situations on their own without too much trouble. It's not optimal for BG1 play as it has a long boot-up time though. If you want to dual at level 9 you will spend literally all of BG1 as a kensai, and since kensai can't wear any armour they can't tank. It won't be until some ways into BG2 that you'll start getting tankability, but by then you'll be very effective.

Monks follow a similar development curve - they are extraordinarily weak in the beginning, and about as squishy as the kensai, but also turn into melee powerhouses in the mid-late game.

Shin

As for the race/class thing I don't consider the option to play every class much of an advantage - it's like you make the best paladin because you're the only paladin - but being able to dual-class certainly seems to make up for the perks other races get.

sandmanCCL

@Zinodin: Both those options can't really tank early in the saga. Kensai and Monks cannot wear armor and even with the AC bonuses they get, neither is terribly resistant to focus fire.

Kensai/Mage isn't really that great an option for BG1 proper. Ideally you'd want as high a level in Kensai as possible before dual-classing out of it but to do so in BG1 and still having enough XP vs. the XP cap to regain those levels, you can only get to level 6. You'll only have a bonus +2 to damage and hit and 2 uses of Kai per day, but at the cost of no armor, helmets or bracers. Not worth it.

Monks were never really designed to be "tanks" until super late game. They can dish out some pretty nice melee damage and all but once the enemies focus on them, they struggle.

If you want a guy to absorb as much punishment as possible, make a single-class fighter of some kind or a fighter/cleric. They are clearly the best at it in BG1 from the combination of heavy armor and buff spells.

Zinodin

Mmm, darn. It's not that I want to tank, but the rest of the party in BG 1 seems very bad at it.

Hmmm, I'll need to think more about it then Thanks for the feedback.

It's greatly appreciated.

Shin

Nah, you should aim to play the way you want to imo. There are some decent tanks to be found early on, certainly not so that you have to provide a tank yourself unless you want to.

SeriousMike

This is maybe the 5th thread about dual classing. IMHO the search function isn't overwhelming useful as of now.
Wouldn't it be better to just post a link to the old discussions? Maybe make one of them sticky or something like that.

For example this one:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/3336/dual-class-vs-multiclass-pros-and-cons-for-those-of-us-who-are-new/p1

There are too much threads with identic topics in this forum. Also way too much polls. :P

Zinodin

Sorry Serious Mike

I also agree... The amount of polls in these forums is TOO DARN HIGH!

Shin

Stuff also tends to get lost in big threads.. ideally all the info should be in the first post.

Fake_Sketch

SeriousMike said:

This is maybe the 5th thread about dual classing. IMHO the search function isn't overwhelming useful as of now.
Wouldn't it be better to just post a link to the old discussions? Maybe make one of them sticky or something like that.

For example this one:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/3336/dual-class-vs-multiclass-pros-and-cons-for-those-of-us-who-are-new/p1

There are too much threads with identic topics in this forum. Also way too much polls. :P

We need mods to enforce this.

Jaxsbudgie

Guys,

I think one of the many class combinations I haven't played is the fighter dualled to druid
Any recommendations on how to go about it? Contemplating it for my first EE play through
I know that combo is a bit tricky since you need 17 and 17 in two stats fighters don't use, but when do you think I should dual and what proficiency points do you think I should put into? Scimitar mayhap?

Shin

I would think scimitars if you want to dual wield, and spears if you prefer 2H, they should both be viable. If you want to dual inside of BG:EE you can't do it any later than level 7. That's what I would recommend, since warriors get an extra 1/2 attack there. Other options would be to dual at level 9 to get the most out of the warrior hp benefit, or at level 13 when you receive yet another 1/2 attack, but that requires BG2.. and at 1,25M exp I personally feel you're dragging too many fighter levels along there.