Let's talk about magic
koteko
Member Posts: 179
I'm a natural born mage-character player. When I first started playing RPGs and reading related books, I couldn't help myself to imagine myself as a wizard, to try to understand what magic could be and how could it influence the world.
I've always looked forward to the magic-oriented quests. From bringing scrolls to old wizards, to perform complex rituals, I've always felt...disappointed.
Why we see young apprentices in need to stay near a master Wizard, while our character just find scrolls, put them in the spell book and is able to use them?
Why do we see a lot of "named spell" (how I wanted to meet Mordenkainen, Bigsby, Melf..) but we can't make our own, even when reaching extremely high levels?
The closest experience to what I would like to play has been with the Planar Sphere in BG2, but of course after the graduation of the three apprentices it's practically over.
Now, with the enhanced version, I might start to mod, a thing I always wanted to try. My efforts would be in this direction, to make magic more interesting.
How many of you feel this need? Am I the only magic-addicted player? It is so difficult to find a game with a non-banal magic system that I'm starting to believe it.
I hope, instead, that the reason is just that "open-ended magic" would be too difficult. In this case, I'll try to make it as simple as possible, but not simpler than that (quoting Einstein).
I've always looked forward to the magic-oriented quests. From bringing scrolls to old wizards, to perform complex rituals, I've always felt...disappointed.
Why we see young apprentices in need to stay near a master Wizard, while our character just find scrolls, put them in the spell book and is able to use them?
Why do we see a lot of "named spell" (how I wanted to meet Mordenkainen, Bigsby, Melf..) but we can't make our own, even when reaching extremely high levels?
The closest experience to what I would like to play has been with the Planar Sphere in BG2, but of course after the graduation of the three apprentices it's practically over.
Now, with the enhanced version, I might start to mod, a thing I always wanted to try. My efforts would be in this direction, to make magic more interesting.
How many of you feel this need? Am I the only magic-addicted player? It is so difficult to find a game with a non-banal magic system that I'm starting to believe it.
I hope, instead, that the reason is just that "open-ended magic" would be too difficult. In this case, I'll try to make it as simple as possible, but not simpler than that (quoting Einstein).
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Comments
are you saying you'll try to redo on how the spell learning system works, or just add more magic orientated content to the game?
If it's former then the engine wont allow you to do anything too drastic with it so i believe you're out of luck (unless you're a veteran programmer)
Here's how i see things on you learning spells from scrolls.
Normally mages stay locked up in their rooms studying day and night experimenting with dangerous combinations to learn and create new magic.
Adventures don't have the luxury of staying in a well versed laboratory where they can study to their heart's content.
That's why they can only learn spells they find on their travels.
Their power grows from life and death experiences found on their travels, where it's do or die in casting correct spells as swiftly as possible.
Only thing i can think of how to add spell creation to the game, is to add some text choices that allow you to combine a spell with certain visuals and premade efffects.
If it isn't, I'll work mostly on magic content, spells unlockable only after quests, and master Wizards that actually teach you stuff under certain conditions (for example, paying them or staying there for a while or doing missions for them).
What I would like to see more are rituals, demonic evocations and the sort.
What I am trying to say therefore is: is there a need for this stuff, or people nowadays much prefer to find the nice scroll and use it to win fights?
If you mean creating a mod related to this matter, such as creating a great wizard character or NPC or even quests related to magic artefacts this should not be to difficult to achieve.
Now as to creating new spells (Animations), as a modder apprentice I would not know where to start.
You could take a look at the Herbs and Potions Add-in mod for one example of how that has been worked out. You could probably steal code from the Planar Sphere and/or this mod. Coders around here could tell you.
As for crafting a new spell in the Realms, maybe others can say... but isn't that a rather big deal, with success ultimately in the hands of divinities Mystra or Azuth? The gods don't want mortals possessing unlimited magic ability, I don't think. That's a separate issue from doing so in a mod, of course. Talking here about FR lore.
I myself would not enjoy trying to create and name my own spells. I prefer to imagine myself in a world that is well-studied in magic, such that all the good spells have already been discovered and documented.
It might be nice to at least have some lore books in the game with details and stories about the lives of Isaac, Melf, Mordenkainen, Blackstaff, and Bigby. I imagine them to be the magical "scientists" or "inventors" who pioneered the field that wizards study.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and Abu-Dalzim. How could I forget the inventor of the doomsday spell "Horrid Wilting".
I do agree with the science bit though.. always found it a shame when you freed the nymph from Ragefast in BG that you couldn't use his observatory and watch the stars and planets closest to Toril.
@Lemernis, this is a good point. I don't really know about the FR manuals, but in the books I've read (Ed Greenwood's and Salvatore's) magic seems a fluid thing, and Mystra strongly encourages the discovery and creation of new magic to the point of sending Elminster to make other wizard "discover" ancient scrolls or spell enhancements.
In any case, I do believe in choice: if I want to become a lich, even if this means having the deities all against me, I should be able to try
@belgarathmth, my point is that a wizard is not enough a wizard in the BG games. I can't stand charisma- or wisdom-driven magic, and I don't think there is much intelligence needed to just find new scrolls, learn the spell and then being able to use it.
Of course in a certain sense there is, but it's not enough (IMHO). I understand the "adventurer" point: if we don't have the time to stay in a laboratory and create new magic, we just need to learn previously discovered spells.
But the adventurer thing is much less prominent in BG2. You can have manors (planar sphere for mages), then you are not anymore an adventurer always on the road. You are because you must find Imoen, find Irenicus, etc. But what if you decide to retire in your tower and summon a huge demon to go looking for irenicus?
I guess I see what you're saying now about wizards needing a more wizardly stronghold and more opportunities to do wizardly things. So they could have made it where you couldn't find or learn, say, Time Stop, unless you took the planar sphere and had your apprentices assist you in researching the spell for a certain time period, maybe a week of game time at least.
As far as modding or writing new spells, the game engine only has a finite number of magic effects programmed into it. I'm not sure how it could be done. I think there are several mods that modify spells, though, so it may be possible.
On the other hand, most mages spend years, decades even, creating their ultimate spell, refining their masterpiece. They spend their lives in isolation, in libraries, researching and experimenting. You, however, are on an adventure to stop Sarevok, to get your soul back or to ascend to Godhood. you really don't have the luxury of time and resources other wizards have. Just a quick disclaimer: I'm new to modding myself (and like you, I'm interested in modding BG), so I don't know if creating a new spell at run-time is even possible. However, theoretically speaking truly open-ended magic is impossible. At best you can take what's in the game and remix it. For example, you could create a magic missile where each missile searches a different target and puts it asleep. While that may be a useful spell, it's not very creative (just a remix of existing spells) and it's not a "new" spell. It doesn't have its own "unique" effect. It doesn't compare to a truly new spell, for example a soul-switch spell. Your imagination as a mage player is limited to what is programmed in the engine.
The most interesting items and spells are those that have something special about them. Nobody cares that you created yet another two-hander +2. But when it's a two-hander that talks to you... things get more interesting. That's why I always think crafting systems in games fail. In skyrim, all you do is craft yet another sword with fire damage. *yawn*. At least alchemy required you to experiment with ingredients to find combinations that work.
To conclude: in my opinion you should stay away from open-ended magic/crafting because no matter how complex you make it, it'll never be as good as something that was hand-crafted, even if it's static content.
That doesn't mean you can't make magic more interesting with static content. I can totally see a quest chain for creating your own NPC golem. Instead of leveling up, the golem would improve by solving subquests. Maybe even have a subquest like using Yoshimo's heart to give the golem emotions.
I figured the missile barrage was hardcoded, but like you said I assumed you could just get a dummy caster to cast single missiles multiple times. Either way, it was just an example I made up.
Another thing I'd like to add is that balancing spell mixes will be hard. Most spells have a single effect. Spells with multiple effects could turn out to be wicked powerful.
@Shin Is it possible to create a new spell or item at run-time? Can you rename items?
I have yet to see anything like that in any game, and I'd choose BG just because I love it. A total conversion could be more appropriate, using the engine and everything but creating a little "magical training" environment, but requires more time and efforts: using BG2 and the Planar Sphere would speed things up, especially considering what you have pointed out in the second part of your reply. Of course you are right, I am a computer scientist so I'm not creating a self-hype with no considerations on feasibility
For my personal pleasure as a player, it'd be a good start to have a combinable system oblivion-style to craft items, spells & potions, allowing for a little component search and book study to find the combinations.
Think about a system where the number of possible spells is pre-determined but the user doesn't know the combinations of components/rituals to produce them. If you need, say, to fill three different slots, each of them with 10 different components to be used, it'd need 1000 experiments to be sure to find the subset of combinations that actually work.
As you rightly underlined, this is a destined-to-failure system. It becomes boring if left completely alone. What can be done is to make the working combinations senseful (using pre-defined principles like the Principle of Similarity: I want a fireball, I do a ritual where I use a little bottle of oil rolled in cotton, and I throw it into a fire), and put books and NPCs around the world to give hints.
Then, to make it more playble and enjoyable in BG-like way, there could be complicated and long quests to get special effects, those totally pre-determined. I do totally agree with you.