Looking to make a new character for full playthrough
MrNooby
Member Posts: 131
Well, haven't finished BG2EE yet, still going through and I intend to finish it. But I'd also like to make another character after and do another playthrough fro BG1EE, and I've a few questions.
Cavaliers seem to be pretty good, with their natural immunities. Is it possibly to dual a fighter/cavalier (I'm not sure which order you'd do it in), and then be able to achieve grandmastery in some weapons? I'm not really familiar with exactly how dualing works.
My current character has just been a pure fighter so far, and I think he's beyond the point where I can really dual him anyway. But that being said, being the boring person I am, I'm looking for a pure melee, and non-casting melee character - and I'm not much interested in backstabs either. I don't plan to do solo runs (because I like having party members with me, for RP purposes if nothing else).
If it helps any, I'm probably going to EE Keeper 97 total roll of my current character in when I do start, and also add any stat boosts I've achieved throughout the games (the tomes etc). I'd probably crank up the difficulty to the highest with that aswell - not looking for a no reload run though.
So if fighter/cavalier isn't viable, are there any other options I could try for pure melee?
Cavaliers seem to be pretty good, with their natural immunities. Is it possibly to dual a fighter/cavalier (I'm not sure which order you'd do it in), and then be able to achieve grandmastery in some weapons? I'm not really familiar with exactly how dualing works.
My current character has just been a pure fighter so far, and I think he's beyond the point where I can really dual him anyway. But that being said, being the boring person I am, I'm looking for a pure melee, and non-casting melee character - and I'm not much interested in backstabs either. I don't plan to do solo runs (because I like having party members with me, for RP purposes if nothing else).
If it helps any, I'm probably going to EE Keeper 97 total roll of my current character in when I do start, and also add any stat boosts I've achieved throughout the games (the tomes etc). I'd probably crank up the difficulty to the highest with that aswell - not looking for a no reload run though.
So if fighter/cavalier isn't viable, are there any other options I could try for pure melee?
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Dual-classing is only allowed for combinations which are also legitimate multi-class combinations (except that with a dual-class, it is legitimate for the first class to be kitted, which isn't allowed for a multi-class). If you want to be truly non-casting, then note that Paladins (from level 9) and Rangers (from level 8) do get a few Priest spells to cast, so your only "pure melee" warrior options are Fighter (or kitted Fighter) and Barbarian. The most "pure melee" is probably the Kensai (Fighter kit), since that doesn't even allow ranged weapons. You might also be interested in a Fighter->Swashbuckler or (perhaps especially) a Swashbuckler->Fighter dual-class. That gives you useful Thief skills except backstab which you don't like, and bonuses to AC and THAC0 from the Swashbuckler component which are helpful to your Fighter skills in melee. And it involves no spells.
And when I say I don't want to cast, that doesn't mean I mind a character that has spells - I probably just won't end up using them, or very seldom. I've heard great things about the cavalier - how does it compare to a fighter in terms of damage?
If a multi or dual class includes a fighter, can you still achieve grandmastery in weapons?
I like the cavalier a lot. I've completed a run with one, and it was a great experience. I've never played a straight fighter but I've used characters who are, and there are advantages to both. It's a trade off.
A multi-class fighter cannot achieve grandmastery without mods. A dual-class fighter can.
Ideally, I'd like to try something different anyway - cavalier/fighter sounded so perfect to me too - but I suppose that might be a bit overpowered. 2 levels in cavalier, then dual to fighter and you get all those immunities...
That being said, the reason I wanted a fighter included if possible was for grand mastery. Even if I can't dual a fighter with a paladin, is there a way to enable grandmastery for a paladin via modding, which would effectively end up being the same thing as as a cavalier/fighter?
An inquisitor can stand toe-to-toe with mages as well, though they lack the benefits of a cavalier.
Paladins are a good class in any case, really, as many of their special abilities are combat related, like Armour of Faith, Bless, Aid, Negative Plane Protection and Chant, and are all rather intuitive spells to use.
P.S. If you have EEKeeper, adding grandmastery is simple and fast. If grandmastery is really what you want, installing EEKeeper will allow you to do it by opening up your save game in the EEKeeper interface, clicking the 'proficiencies' tab, and then adding stars to any weapon from the list by using the '+' button.
You really don't need grandmastery. A Paladin is a tough and effective warrior with just his legitimate ** in his weapons. By not having grandmastery he sacrifices some damage output compared to a straight Fighter, but his immunities give him a little more durability, and both his spells and his wider spread of weapon proficiencies give him a little more versatility. I reckon it balances out fairly well ... except in the case of an Inquisitor, whose innate Dispel Magic and True Seeing distinctly tip the balance in his favour against pretty much any other class.
So aside from weapon profs, what are the melee differences between a paladin, and a fighter?
I also know that fighter gets levels faster, how much of a difference will that make in various parts of the game (start, end, inbetween).
Caeria mentioned messing with game files to enable otherwise illegitimate dual/multi classes. Does anybody know how to go about doing this?
They are also more versatile when it comes to weapons. As a Paladin you might always be compelled to go for Two-Handed Sword because of the Holy Avenger. As a Ranger you might feel those free Two-Weapon Style points should be put to use.
Fighters cover more ground. You can be a deadly archer and melee beast at once with grandmastery in both bows and halberds or two-handed swords. You can combine dual-wielding with grandmastery to outshine Rangers in that department. Or you can be a sword-and-board guy and gear up in order to make *a lot* of enemies depend on critical hits to hurt you (at least until ToB).
Cons: you will always rely on another party members to disable enemy spellcasters, which is very important in BG2. Even an epic level Fighter is a sitting duck against Mages with powerful protections (including contingencies that trigger when they're low on health).
In conclusion: what the Fighter does, it does better than any other Warrior classes. But it only does that. A Fighter always needs a good backup team.
Bonus tip: If you don't plan on having your character using ranged weapons, the Berserker is a better choice than the pure class Fighter. Berserkers get Rage, which buffs your stats and gives you precious immunity to several disabling effects for a few rounds. The only trade-off is that you can't specialize in ranged weapons - which is why you're better off not using them at all.
in bgee be a half-orc berserker with:
STR 19
DEX 18
CON 19
INT 15
WIS 3
CHA 18
first, this is only a score of 92, so if you really want 97, just put the other 5 on wisdom if you want ( but in all honesty, this is all you are going to need)
then put your first 4 proficiencies in this order:
two handed sword: 2 points
two handed weapon style: 2 points
and what you will realize is that this guy will right out of the gate be kicking butt, and then throughout bg keep on stacking two handed sword, and give him all zee manuals and you should end up like this:
STR 20
DEX 19
CON 20
INT 16
WIS 6
CHA 19
two handed sword: 4 points
two handed weapon style: 2 points
Here is the great part about these above stats:
1- with all that proficiency in two handed word and using a two handed sword +2 or +3 with all that strength you will be doing some serious damage ( very possible of dealing over 50 damage on critical hits especially with the help of the berserk ability)
2 - the dex is great, for AC although the difference from 18 to 19 is +1 more to the reaction adjustment, so you will start attacking a hair ball faster
3- when your CON hits 20+ you start to regenerate HPs, now granted its not world shattering ( 20 con -> regenerate 1 HP per 6 rounds) but you will notice it, and its quite a nice bonus, you will heal a lot of HP when you rest and going between maps you will heal as well ( if you are damaged)
4- this INT at 16 is very important because in bg2, then will be INT sucking mind flayers, and they drain 5 INT at a time, so if you are at 16, they have to hit you 4 times before they kill you ( compared to 10 INT where they only need to hit you twice to kill you)
5- with 19 CHA is get a big bonus to npc reaction adjustment and a nice discount on store prices, which is very nice in early SoA when gold is scarce and you need some great gear
Now, when you import over to SoA, finish off, the two handed sword proficiency at level 9 and you will notice that even with the sword of chaos you will be kicking some serious butt, then I would put 2 pips on quarterstaff just so you can deal some damage to the odd clay golem that comes around, now for 2 handed swords, you main focus will be the silver sword, get this sword at all costs, now granted that its only a +3 weapon ( compared to warblades +4 and great damage) BUT the silver sword has the decapitation ability and it just wrecks kids in SoA, 25% is quite substantial, and with a -2 penalty, anyone creature in the game can fail, and at 4 attacks per round that's basically one chance per round of instagibbing one of yer baddies, now that all being said, after you have 5 pips in 2 handed sword, 2 pips in quarterstaff, and 2 pips in 2 handed weapon fighting, what comes next? start stack up halberd, because this is where the real fun begins:
When you hit ToB you will have your pretty instagib silver sword all the way, until you find 2 items; ravager +4 and the serpant shaft ( both of which can be found in watcher's keep) meld these 2 puppies together with your good ol' friend cespenar and really watch the prophecy of bhaal come true, if you gave your guy +2 STR from SoA ( from the hell trial) and +1 STR from MoLtM, you will have a whooping 23 STR, plus with 5 pips in halberd and 2 pips in 2 handed weapon fighting AND possibly some mits that give a +2 to damage, you will be dealing damage in the 30s on normal hits, not only that but you might even poison baddies on each hit, and if that wasn't godly enough, your good ol' pal mr decapitation is still around except this time he isn't messing around, with a 10% of instakilling yer baddie with no save, no passing go, no collecting 200 dollars, straight to dead land, not to shabby I would say ( although some of the bigger boss characters might be immune to instadeath, but they still have to suffer all your other madness which is already brutally wicked)
So after all the dust settles, your character will be quite the power house, but by looking at what you have said above, maybe you might be into that sort of thing, and why not, give it a try, and see how it suits you, and I almost forgot, his berserk ability, do you know whats great about it, besides the + 2 to hit/ to damage/ AC ? the fact that it makes you immune to ALL charm/confusion type spells AND LEVEL DRAIN AND IMPRISONMENT, I will just let that sink in for awhile
Does dual-wielding not dish out more damage in the end, forgetting for the moment about the insta death?
With the Greater Whirlwind Attack HLA, you get 10 APR with your two-handed weapon, but Greater Whirlwind is a short-duration effect. When you run out of Greater Whirlwind, then dual-wielding can deliver more APR for the remainder of the battle ... but on the other hand, that's only relevant if your enemy is still standing, which most won't be.
When you're playing with a party, it's frequently optimal to have both a dual-wielding warrior and a two-handing warrior, so that they're not competing with one another for the best-in-class equipment. And when you've got a Paladin in the party, the Paladin is the natural choice for the two-handing role, because of Carsomyr.
Personally I'd say Fighter -> Swashbuckler dual for fire and forget melee. Dual out at Fighter 13 or 14, you'll hit Swashbuckler 39 by the XP cap, have 2 attacks plus weapon Grand Mastery in at least one weapon of choice.
Swashbuckler 39 gives you effectively the same 0 THAC0 as a max level fighter, -8 AC on top of armour, +7 untyped bonus damage to every hit, Whirlwind and Greater Whirlwind HLAs, and Use Any Item. You can thieve if you want to, or just crank up Detect Illusions to strip away mage and rogue illusory defences.
Or in other words, wearing only Full Plate and 19 tome'd dex you'll have -11 AC, hit harder than any other fighter, be largely immune to backstabbers and other invisibility users, and be able to alternate between Carsomyr and the Unholy Reaver if the mood takes you.
Fighter->Swashbuckler is one of my all-time favorite combinations, but it is OBSCENELY powerful. One of the highest damage outputs out there, great defense, AND the ability to use anything? Right-o!
I know I'd have whirlwind, but how does the base APR when not using whirlwind compare to a pure fighter, and a fighter->swashbuckler?
Also, aren't there quite a few passive bonuses I could use even if I chose to be a pure fighter, or in this case a mostly pure fighter. Eg, taking 2 assassin levels, then dualing to fighter. Later in the game, the exp would be no different, but I'd get a +1 bonus to hit and damage, a swashbuckler for +1 AC, a shadowdancer for +1 to saving throws, or a ranger for starting with 2 pips in dual-wielding.
2 APR base (Fighter 13+)
+1 APR from Grand Mastery
+1 APR from dual wield
= 4 APR
Then using a +1 APR offhand puts you at 5 APR, which is the maximum. That means you could also dual earlier (Fighter lvl 9) and still get maximum APR if you use the +0.5 APR gloves from WK. Assuming no one else in your party would rather have them, of course. If you plan on doing BG1, sure, very low level dualing can be a thing for small bonuses that make you a Fighter with a bit of cherry on top. In BG2 however I would never dual before lvl 9; you just have too much XP lying around.
Also, are there any other combos like fighter->swashbuckler that would work well for a melee-centered build. Not sure if anyone was thinking about dual classing into a kit before, which I don't mind doing at all.
Also, how do I go about using EEKeeper to allow it? Do I just load up my save after I dual, and change the thief class into swashbuckler, or what have you?
Also - by dualing to swash at 13, I'd be 13 fighter, 39 swash, right?
What would I be if dualed at 9? Still 39, or would I make 40?
To handle it, I think there's an Add Kit in EEkeeper now, but otherwise just go ahead and set your thief level to 0, unassign all but 15 points, then add the kit, just as you would do with a kitted multiclass.
Generally the problem of going from Fighter to another class with your preferences is that Fighters are generally the best at simple, up close melee. Clerics and Mages are both complexity adding, buff oriented classes. Assassin gives poison weapon, which you might like, but again, it and shadow dancer are backstab oriented. Bounty Hunter is Trap focused. Swashbuckler gets the extra mileage because it's designed to make a mini fighter/thief out of a single class thief, so you're basically getting a Fighter/fighter/Thief out of it.
I already uncapped the first game, which was nice for an extra 100k exp or so.
That being said, levels beyond 30 or so don't actually do as much as you might think. Most relevant statistics are capped already (THAC0, caster level, thieving skills...), and even those that are not may be diminished (e.g. spell progression). There are some functions that do continue to scale (Turn Undead, Dispel Magic level[?]), but overall it's not really a big deal whether you're 35 or 45 or 55.
There are mods that do extend scaling, e.g. by adding caster level progression all the way to 50 or adding saving throw penalties to spells at high levels (surely other things, too, just remember those two from personal experience). I tried that, and found it too game-breaking. Higher level play is already fairly easy due to the full arsenal at your disposal, making it even easier was not conducive to my overall game experience.
As for the dualing issue, I would probably only dual at 13 in a small-party game or in Legacy of Bhaal, and only if I'm sure that I need the APR gauntlets on someone else. Otherwise I'd just dual at 9 and use those to cap APR. The reason isn't the final levels at XP cap, but simply the fact that it is EXTREMELY annoying, even with heavy XP metagaming, to dual at levels where the XP bracket changes to the higher tier (1->9 requires as much total XP as 9->10, or any one level thereafter). Heck, even without the gauntlets, I might want to rather sit on 4.5 APR than go through those extra millions of XP of downtime.
Is there somewhere I can read up that actually documents the changes between difficulty and legacy of bhaal?
I have IWDEE, but am yet to play it.
The XP is baseXP*2+1000 I believe. Don't know the exact statistics, but I think it's just a carbon-copy of Heart of Fury for now so you can look that up, should have some exact tables somewhere.