Questions about Dual Class, Fighters and Weapon Proficiency
Hello,
I have a few questions concerning Dual Class, Fighters and how to setup my Weapons Proficiency points. Sorry for the huge wall of text but if anyone can answer some of the questions, it'd be very much appreciated. I have played BG1 about 15 years ago when I was a teenager (1 walkthrough with a full party as an Invoker, 1 as a solo Fighter). I played D&D a bit, had the manuals so I understood the basics (THAC0, bonuses, etc.).
I had ToSC at that time but never managed to get it to work on my computer. I wanted to look back into it a few months ago and saw that there was this new edition AND that there was a BG2 (I never even knew about). So I bought both BG1+BG2 EE. I took forever to decide on my class thinking I would import my character back into BG2. I ended up doing about 80% of a playthrough as a Sorcerer + full party and did a full playthrough as a solo Kensai/Mage (dualed at lvl 7), I'm just not done with Durlag's Tower. I also beat Black Pits 1 with a party I created in order to compare a bit Paladin, Kensai/Mage, Berserker, Sorcerer to see what I'd enjoy the most for BG2.
Here I'm stuck again, spending days reading and having a hard time making my mind. I had started BG2 with a Sorcerer but after looking at the high level spells, it seems like most of them are more for utility and not that impressive for damage dealing compared to melee damage I think (am I wrong?). If so, I'm not sure that I really see the point in having a Sorcerer as my main character if he's going to be mostly doing utility spells and medium/low damage support. I might as well just have an added party member for that. I thought that Sorcerer would be nice for nuking over the versatility of a mage but if he's mostly buffing/debuffing at high level, I don't see much point (AOEs aren't always very useful with friendly fire and mobs might have much better saving throws in BG2 to make my spells less effective on top of that).
Then I'm thinking about either Kensai or Berserker. I had learned every single spell from BG1 on my K/M and he has 19 str but since I dualed him at lvl 7, I guess I'm best to make a new one for BG2 unfortunately. Half-Orc Berserker with 2h sword is very tempting (19 str and good Sarevok sword early game) but it seems like it might not be a good idea in the long run as you eventually get belts to boost str higher and dual wield deals a lot more damage than 2h sword?
I'm not sure how much I enjoyed the K/M for the main reason that I found by the end the game that it was best to use buffing/debuffing spells for my K/M and it was taking forever to set it all up each fight (or before each fight) instead of just going in like a fighter should. I found that summoning and damaging spells weren't very good (at least not in the middle of a fight) with my K/M and I would lose several rounds just buffing myself (at least, in the Black Pits). Is going ''pure'' Kensai worth it at all if I have an other mage in my party to do the buff/debuff or would I lose out too much from not having certain spells that can only be cast on the caster himself? I think that I read that Kensai's THAC0 is just so low that it doesn't really matter anyways to level it as a ''pure class''.
About the Berserker, I found the rage to be pretty annoying in Black Pits. Sure, it's nice to be immuned to some CCs for a while but when it ends and the fight isn't over, it's pretty lame to be stuck with a debuff. I also had to wait for it to wear off every time I wanted to rest, which was very annoying. I'm guessing that if I was to have him as my main character, you have to wait it off and rest after every encounter where you use it? If you don't, you risk having the debuff trigger during your next fight once the rage ends. How do you deal with this? Do you just have to be super patient to play the Berserker? I'm also wondering how useful the rage is in the long run. I mean, it must be great in the early game but don't your saving throws become very good as you reach high levels so that you would resist most of those spells anyways? Just like for the Kensai, is Berserker ''pure class'' good if I have someone else to do the buffs/debuffs or will he just be a fraction of what he could be as Berserker/Mage or Berserker/Cleric?
What about Paladin? I know that the best 2h sword can only be used by them. Can they dish out good damage (I know they can be great tanks) as a main character or are they much inferior to Kensai or Berserker no matter what on that department?
I'll do the dual class if needed but I'm not a big fan of it to be honest. I already don't like to have a bunch of party members of different classes to manage, let alone when they have more than one class themselves (on top of becoming weak with the 2nd class until they catch up in levels to the initial one). I plan to do 1 walkthrough of BG2 with a full party on regular difficulty (I don't want to make it hard on myself trying to solo it, at least not for now). I'm wondering with the dual class, say I dual my Kensai at 9, it says that Kensai gets +1 attack damage and -1 THAC0 every 3 level if I remember well. Does this mean that if I dual at 9, all I get is +3 dmg, -3 THAC0 or do I get a lot more of those bonuses once I hit lvl 9 Mage? Would I then get an extra +3 from the 9 Mage levels? I'm confused on this one. I read that they get very high damage and THAC0 but I just don't see how it's that big of a deal if you Dual Class him. Weapon speed only affects who gets to attack first each round, it doesn't give you more attacks right?
Finally, Weapon Proficiency points. It wasn't as big of a deal with BG1 cause I already knew the game, I also played Black Pits and just kept my Katanas +2 for my solo playthrough on the K/M while the weapon wasn't very important for my Sorcerer but it seems to be a big deal with BG2 if I play a Fighter. I found the list of magic weapons, read many posts and so on. 2h swords would be much more simple but apparently clearly inferior in terms of damage. People seem to agree overall about Flail of Ages to be the best MH weapon and Belm to be the best OH. If I dual at lvl 9, I only get 7 points to spend. I made a new Kensai and put 5 into Flails, 1 into Dual Wield. I could only have 2/3 Dual Wield and then any of the other good weapons (Celestial Fury for example), I won't be proficient with... It also means that I won't be proficient with my OH weapon. Is it that worth it to go with Dual Wield if you can't even max it out compared to 2h weapon? Would that be a decent perk from being a ''pure fighter'' class so that you can get Grand Master for both your MH and OH plus the 3/3 Dual Wield? Am I best to get 3/3 Dual Wield over Grand Master? Should I not max out one weapon type but get points in 2-3 of them so that I can use different good weapons throughout the game? This is the main thing holding me back right now and I don't want to realize that I messed it up half way through the game. I would rather play with Katanas for a Kensai (or longswords or bastard swords) but I think that I might get screwed over late game if I put my points into this as mobs will resist the damage type and the weapons aren't strong enough to land attacks on some of the stronger enemies from what I read.
I have a few questions concerning Dual Class, Fighters and how to setup my Weapons Proficiency points. Sorry for the huge wall of text but if anyone can answer some of the questions, it'd be very much appreciated. I have played BG1 about 15 years ago when I was a teenager (1 walkthrough with a full party as an Invoker, 1 as a solo Fighter). I played D&D a bit, had the manuals so I understood the basics (THAC0, bonuses, etc.).
I had ToSC at that time but never managed to get it to work on my computer. I wanted to look back into it a few months ago and saw that there was this new edition AND that there was a BG2 (I never even knew about). So I bought both BG1+BG2 EE. I took forever to decide on my class thinking I would import my character back into BG2. I ended up doing about 80% of a playthrough as a Sorcerer + full party and did a full playthrough as a solo Kensai/Mage (dualed at lvl 7), I'm just not done with Durlag's Tower. I also beat Black Pits 1 with a party I created in order to compare a bit Paladin, Kensai/Mage, Berserker, Sorcerer to see what I'd enjoy the most for BG2.
Here I'm stuck again, spending days reading and having a hard time making my mind. I had started BG2 with a Sorcerer but after looking at the high level spells, it seems like most of them are more for utility and not that impressive for damage dealing compared to melee damage I think (am I wrong?). If so, I'm not sure that I really see the point in having a Sorcerer as my main character if he's going to be mostly doing utility spells and medium/low damage support. I might as well just have an added party member for that. I thought that Sorcerer would be nice for nuking over the versatility of a mage but if he's mostly buffing/debuffing at high level, I don't see much point (AOEs aren't always very useful with friendly fire and mobs might have much better saving throws in BG2 to make my spells less effective on top of that).
Then I'm thinking about either Kensai or Berserker. I had learned every single spell from BG1 on my K/M and he has 19 str but since I dualed him at lvl 7, I guess I'm best to make a new one for BG2 unfortunately. Half-Orc Berserker with 2h sword is very tempting (19 str and good Sarevok sword early game) but it seems like it might not be a good idea in the long run as you eventually get belts to boost str higher and dual wield deals a lot more damage than 2h sword?
I'm not sure how much I enjoyed the K/M for the main reason that I found by the end the game that it was best to use buffing/debuffing spells for my K/M and it was taking forever to set it all up each fight (or before each fight) instead of just going in like a fighter should. I found that summoning and damaging spells weren't very good (at least not in the middle of a fight) with my K/M and I would lose several rounds just buffing myself (at least, in the Black Pits). Is going ''pure'' Kensai worth it at all if I have an other mage in my party to do the buff/debuff or would I lose out too much from not having certain spells that can only be cast on the caster himself? I think that I read that Kensai's THAC0 is just so low that it doesn't really matter anyways to level it as a ''pure class''.
About the Berserker, I found the rage to be pretty annoying in Black Pits. Sure, it's nice to be immuned to some CCs for a while but when it ends and the fight isn't over, it's pretty lame to be stuck with a debuff. I also had to wait for it to wear off every time I wanted to rest, which was very annoying. I'm guessing that if I was to have him as my main character, you have to wait it off and rest after every encounter where you use it? If you don't, you risk having the debuff trigger during your next fight once the rage ends. How do you deal with this? Do you just have to be super patient to play the Berserker? I'm also wondering how useful the rage is in the long run. I mean, it must be great in the early game but don't your saving throws become very good as you reach high levels so that you would resist most of those spells anyways? Just like for the Kensai, is Berserker ''pure class'' good if I have someone else to do the buffs/debuffs or will he just be a fraction of what he could be as Berserker/Mage or Berserker/Cleric?
What about Paladin? I know that the best 2h sword can only be used by them. Can they dish out good damage (I know they can be great tanks) as a main character or are they much inferior to Kensai or Berserker no matter what on that department?
I'll do the dual class if needed but I'm not a big fan of it to be honest. I already don't like to have a bunch of party members of different classes to manage, let alone when they have more than one class themselves (on top of becoming weak with the 2nd class until they catch up in levels to the initial one). I plan to do 1 walkthrough of BG2 with a full party on regular difficulty (I don't want to make it hard on myself trying to solo it, at least not for now). I'm wondering with the dual class, say I dual my Kensai at 9, it says that Kensai gets +1 attack damage and -1 THAC0 every 3 level if I remember well. Does this mean that if I dual at 9, all I get is +3 dmg, -3 THAC0 or do I get a lot more of those bonuses once I hit lvl 9 Mage? Would I then get an extra +3 from the 9 Mage levels? I'm confused on this one. I read that they get very high damage and THAC0 but I just don't see how it's that big of a deal if you Dual Class him. Weapon speed only affects who gets to attack first each round, it doesn't give you more attacks right?
Finally, Weapon Proficiency points. It wasn't as big of a deal with BG1 cause I already knew the game, I also played Black Pits and just kept my Katanas +2 for my solo playthrough on the K/M while the weapon wasn't very important for my Sorcerer but it seems to be a big deal with BG2 if I play a Fighter. I found the list of magic weapons, read many posts and so on. 2h swords would be much more simple but apparently clearly inferior in terms of damage. People seem to agree overall about Flail of Ages to be the best MH weapon and Belm to be the best OH. If I dual at lvl 9, I only get 7 points to spend. I made a new Kensai and put 5 into Flails, 1 into Dual Wield. I could only have 2/3 Dual Wield and then any of the other good weapons (Celestial Fury for example), I won't be proficient with... It also means that I won't be proficient with my OH weapon. Is it that worth it to go with Dual Wield if you can't even max it out compared to 2h weapon? Would that be a decent perk from being a ''pure fighter'' class so that you can get Grand Master for both your MH and OH plus the 3/3 Dual Wield? Am I best to get 3/3 Dual Wield over Grand Master? Should I not max out one weapon type but get points in 2-3 of them so that I can use different good weapons throughout the game? This is the main thing holding me back right now and I don't want to realize that I messed it up half way through the game. I would rather play with Katanas for a Kensai (or longswords or bastard swords) but I think that I might get screwed over late game if I put my points into this as mobs will resist the damage type and the weapons aren't strong enough to land attacks on some of the stronger enemies from what I read.
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Comments
As for dual class THAC0, they don't stack at all - you have the THAC0 of either your first or second class, whichever one provides the best value.
Still, I wouldn't be shy about Dual-Classing if I were you. The general rule of thumb is that if you can, then you should. One combination that you didn't consider which may appeal to you if you aren't a fan of spending the time to self-buff is the Kensei-Thief. Thieves level really fast which means you get your Kensei abilities back quickly too. Also I am not sure if you are aware of this but ToB comes with High Level Abilities - one of which belonging to the Thief is called "Use Any Item" and that ability removes all of the penalties for being a Kensei. If you don't want to run around as a level 1 after dual-classing, you don't really have to. Just stockpile all of the spell scrolls you can find and if you have spare cash, buy as many as you can from the merchants. When you Dual Class, kick everyone out of your party if you are DCing into a Mage), or everyone but a Mage if you are DCing into anything else. Then have that Mage learn all of those spells, erasing old ones as necessary, and before you are done your first class will most likely have returned.
Paladins are absolutely a very good class in BG2, and Inquisitor in particular is probably one of the best things you can be in this game. And that sword you mentioned really is that good
As for different weapons, it does pay to plan ahead. But don't be blinded by the weapon selection, you're rarely in a situation where you want to use many different types. Flails in particular is a very safe choice, because you get Flail of Ages so early on, and it remains so good throughout the game you'll hardly ever want to use something else.
If you do like using a wide variety of weapons, perhaps a class like Paladin is a better fit. But if you want to plan ahead and maximize efficiency, then Grand Mastery on a Fighter is the way to go. Enemies don't resist slashing too much, here and there but nothing like missile or piercing, where you have strong resistances or immunities on several common types of enemy. Katana do suffer from the fact that they have an amazing one early on (Celestial Fury) but nothing useful at all in the rest of the game. Bastard Swords are sort of the opposite, nothing impressive for most of the game, then one of the best swords of all later on (Foebane). Long Swords are fairly balanced, with good early, mid, and late game choices (e.g. Daystar, Flametongue, Angurvadal).
Yes, you can use a Sorcerer for blasting the enemy. But just pick two or three damage spells in BG1 and another two or three in BG2, and rely on those for all your "nuking". If you make good choices, this can work very well ... party-friendly AoE is particularly handy, of course.
Yes, enemies have better saving throws as you go along, and you'll also meet some with significant Magic Resistance or immunities. De-buffing therefore becomes more important. Nuts, a Kensai(7)->Mage is a perfectly fine protagonist for BG2. However, for BG2 you'll be using him mostly (and increasingly) as a Mage rather than as a Fighter, and the main advantage of the Kensai levels is that when he's forced into physical combat (or runs out of relevant spells) then he'll be significantly better at it than a single-class Mage. Yes, you get some STR belts, but it's very handy when your protagonist doesn't need one and you can therefore let some other party member get the benefit.
No, dual-wielding doesn't deal "a lot" more damage than two-handing, the difference is actual fairly marginal. Either is very effective, provided that you have the right proficiencies and equipment. In BG2, you'll soon find yourself spending even more time on buffing/de-buffing and other preparation than in BG1. It's a complex game of planned strategies and elaborate tactics, not a shoot-em-up. If you don't have the patience and interest to set up carefully and thoroughly for the major fights, then you'll just lose. If you want a protagonist to be a melee warrior, then pure Kensai is certainly a viable option.
If you're going to dual to Mage at all, then that's a character which will be mainly a Mage for the rest of the game, not a front-line warrior - obviously a pure Mage until you get Kensai levels back, then a short window after getting your Kensai levels back when you'll again be competitive in melee, but then after that you'll be left well behind in Fighter levels by your NPC warriors and will be better off working mostly as a Mage (and leaving most of the melee work to NPCs) for the rest of the game. Rage is the point of Berserker; if you don't like the Rage, then Berserker isn't for you. The exhaustion afterwards is brief, just a minute or so. If you regard that as an excessive wait, then really I wonder whether you have the patience for this game. No, after the first few levels you get multiple uses of Rage per day, so you don't need to rest every time. The after-use exhaustion should surely wear off by the time you reach your next battle. You're rushing through at nigh-unbelievable speed if you can often reach the next battle while still Enraged from the previous battle. Even so, you can negate the exhaustion by just re-Enraging for that next battle, then wait afterwards for it to wear off. No more than the patience demanded throughout the game. I wouldn't recommend BG to someone suffering severe ADHD, but anyone of normal attention-span shouldn't have a problem. Excellent, and more so as the game goes on. Many things can't be saved against, you need immunity. The immunities are especially valuable later when you face enemies who try to use those effects. So no, the value of Rage grows, not diminishes, as you progress. Same role as pure Kensai, a melee warrior. Completely different role to a [anything]->Mage (who is primarily a Mage) or a [anything]->Cleric (who is primarily a Cleric). Paladins are fine melee warriors. They tend to be a little tougher and a little more versatile than Fighter kits, but a little less damaging ... but the difference isn't enough to change their role, it's often less than the differences caused by how they're equipped and so on. The main thing to know in BG2 about any dual-class is that it's then primarily the second class and should be played as such to make the most of it. (It's not the same in BG1, because the second class never gets so many levels higher than the first class.) For many of us, probably for most of us who are long-term players, the complexity is the attraction. If you don't like complexity, then, well, BG may not hold your interest for long. No, -3 THAC0 and +3 damage is "all you'd get". After dualling out of a class, you get no further progress from that class/kit. But -3 THAC0 and +3 damage is a really good bonus, especially for the Mage or Thief which you've now become! Well it gets very high if you stick to pure Kensai. Even dualling out and stopping further bonuses, it's enough to make a Mage or Thief a lot stronger in combat. Right. Only slightly. And raw damage is not the only consideration, it's a much more subtle and complicated game than that. Two-handing is a perfectly credible strategy. No.
There are a couple of misleading propagandists who keep repeating this over and over, but they usually don't bother to explain that they're depending upon an exploit instead of legitimate use. FoA is the most damaging weapon for a dual-wielder's main hand only if you use an exploit to nullify the Free Action effect which is added when it gets its final upgrade to FoA +5. Free Action nerfs it hugely by making it incompatible with Haste spells and potions. (It's probable that the real developer-intended use for FoA +5 is as a Cleric weapon with a Shield in the off-hand, to help make sure that your Cleric stays in action for when you need urgent raising or healing or re-buffing.) Without cheating your way around the Free Action nerf, you're better off with various other weapons for the main hand.
Belm +2 is often a good weapon for the off-hand, but for those who can use it (Fighter/Thieves, Blades, Swashbucklers) the Scarlet Ninja-To +3 is substantially better. There's also a lot to be said for the Defender of Easthaven +3 and Crom Faeyr +5 as off-hand weapons, which I frequently find more useful.
It all depends, however, upon who is in your party and what weapons your other characters need. There isn't a one-size-fits-all-parties answer. With * in dual-wielding, it's useless. With ** in dual-wielding, some people will do it, but the off-hand penalty is still substantial so you're often better off two-handing (and more likely hitting, and probably hitting harder) than getting an extra attack (which probably misses). With *** in dual-wielding, yes, it's well worthwhile. Yes to grandmastery for the main-hand weapon and mastery in dual-wielding. For the off-hand weapon, grandmastery wouldn't give you any extra APR and therefore isn't nearly so significant ... if that weapon class is going to be used only off-hand, there's probably no point going beyond mastery (which gives as much THAC0 benefit as grandmastery). However, grandmastery in both gives you the option of using the "off-hand" type efficiently in the main-hand instead, which can be situationally useful. That depends upon who else you've got and what weapons they can use, but in general, no, you want to be really good with your main weapons, and rely on your companions to make use of other weapons when they're the right tool for the job. However, if your companions can't handle several situationally-important weapons, then it can be better for your protagonist to spread his proficiencies ... but not too much. Quit panicking, just get on with it and see how it goes. You'll probably be fine. Some enemies have good resistance to sharps, that's true. Either give yourself some proficiencies in a blunt weapon as well, or just rely on your companions to take care of it when sharps aren't cutting the mustard. (Or indeed the Mustard Jelly
Thanks for clearing up about the dual class being more about the 2nd class. I only dual classed in BG1 so both of my classes were around the same level (I think Kensai was at 7, Mage at 8 if I remember well) so I really thought that the point of using Mage was just to buff yourself to be an even stronger melee fighter rather than being a Mage with melee fighting skills on the side.
I'm also glad I read what you wrote about weapons and proficiency. I had been looking through posts and discussions about those for the last week (some of them from 15 years ago) and couldn't find the precise answers. I do not plan on cheating or using mods so I might give the flail to an other character than my main one then. It would be a great weapon if I can get it early on but if it prevents me from using haste spells (which are very important if I want to focus on melee damage output), then I guess it isn't ideal.
I understand that dual class is part of what is fun and the complexity if you want to replay the game many times over. It's just that for a first playthrough, I already have so many mage spells to learn, when I add all of the NPC classes I end up with (Thief for example that I clearly am not using the right way or Cleric since I haven't tried all the spells and often end up using as a heal bot), having dual class on top of it is just a bit much. If I had a good understanding of most classes, it'd be different.
What I meant by not being too sure about Sorcerer being my main character was in the sense that if the damage spells aren't what is strongest about them in BG2, I'd end up buffing/debuffing and many of those spells might just need to be cast once per fight. Maybe my views are skewed because I played through BG1 4x and I haven't played BG2 yet but usually, I might need to do 1 dispell or 1 CC spell and I don't really need to keep on casting it again over and over (so I'll switch to damage spells after). If that's the case, then having a maxed out melee character (from having the right proficiencies and maxed out stats) should be more benificial while I can have an other mage do the buffs/debuffs. In BG1, I was using a mage for most of my utility spells while my sorcerer was more focused on dealing damage. These spells turn the caster into more of a support than a damage dealer (not denying that the support is essential, it's just that if I buff a random character that isn't maximized with my sorc, I think it turns out less efficient than if I buff a maxed melee character with a random party mage instead).
Once you start getting more experienced with the game you may want to try upping the challenge with mods, and then there's merit to thinking about the small stuff. But the unmodded game can be and has been beaten by naked characters :P
Other than that you kite fairly well with a Mage coupled with a whole lot of resting. Equipment doesn't really do much for a Mage anyway really.
Let's see someone do that :P