How do ranged weapons work vs creatures requiring enchanted weapons?

MrNooby

So as the title says, how does it work?

Say I'm fighting a lich (which needs +4 weapons right?). What part of the ranged weapon needs to be +4? The weapon itself, or the ammo? I recall a lot of SoA where my archers were doing absolutely nothing because they were using normal arrows, even though the bow was enchanted - but once I got +2 arrows I was fine (although the short supply of enchanted arrows to be had in shops is very frustrating).

Gotural

Only the arrow's level of enchantment determines what you can or cannot hit.

MrNooby

Doesn't that kind of screw over archers in a big way as far as BG2 goes? I mean, +2 arrows is basically the best I can get (+3 in ToB), which kind of sucks when there are a fairly large number of notable enemies that require +3, sometimes more. That and there's very few +2 arrows to be even bought in the shops - I've had to rely on my the two bows that give unlimited ammo. I could use the quiver of plenty in ToB, but I can only get one, and even then, that's only +2 arrows.

What about arrows that don't specify an enchant bonus, like the ones that give elemental damage? Although they're no easier to obtain in reasonable numbers than +2 arrows.

Gotural

Ranged weapons that don't require ammo will use the weapon level instead.

This is why Firetooth is so good, it will fire +4 bolts if you don't use ammo.

Other than that you're right, it will screw over Archers.

Caeria

@MrNooby Yeah, the whole screwed-over-archer thing is a big topic that always seems to come back. Nevertheless, the archer is my favorite class to play, but then again, several years back I created +5 arrows and put them at hard-to-get-to places in the game (so it would feel like I'd earned them). I'm working on doing that for my EE game now. It makes the archer less sucky in the late game, and since it's my favorite class (I also consider my archer my canon character), I'm willing to do it. Plus, I think I only made about 100 +5 arrows available (which is nothing for a 5-attacks-per-round archer), so my archer has to be careful with using them

MrNooby

I'd be happy having them buyable really. I mean, I didn't do every single possible thing in BG2 - but I did perhaps 95% of them - and I was really struggling with my finance. I mean, I bought every and any spell that one of my two mages hadn't yet learnt, so that probably played a part...but still - if they were reasonably expensive, I think it could work. Hell, at the start of the game, I struggled just to keep my archers supplied with +2 arrows - and by the time I could afford them in larger quantities, the shops had none left. Not like BG1, where I just paid a visit to sorcerous sundries, and bought all the fire and acid arrows they had which kept both my archers going for the rest of the game (and really, in BG1 you just drown in gold, I ha dnothing else to really do it all - although killing Drizzt with arrows of detonation was reasonably expensive, but hurray for non-cheese (kind of) Drizzt kills!)

I want to try an archer....but as far as turn based games go, I've always preferred to be up and close. Although in games like skyrim - archers all the way!

Caeria

Yeah, I thought about putting them in stores, as that's much easier to do than putting them in a container in a specific area, but in the end I didn't want to buy such a powerful item.

Also, you should totally try an archer. We need more of them in the world I get that they don't suit everyone's play style though.

MrNooby

Looking at the archer kit, they certainly look powerful - by the looks of it, pretty much a ranged version of the swashbuckler, minus the thief skills?

I want to, but at the same time, I like my main character to be the one who can get up and in the face of the enemies. How would an archer fare in a solo run? I imagine you could cheese with them a lot using boots of speed, but not counting them for the moment, are they a viable class for that? I mean, I'm sure they could cut down hordes of monsters before they even get to you - but what about the boss fights?

sluckers

Archers are perfectly viable. While they don't get grandmastery with slings, their ability and damage bonuses apply more broadly to any missile weapon. Get the Sling of Everard and you're laughing. Unlimited +5 ammo. You're chosen bow with +3 ammo or +4 unlimited (for Gesen's) is effective for 98.348293041786 percent of the game, and you can switch to Everard's for the remaining fraction.

Only some of the big bosses of Throne of Bhaal will need greater than +4, I think. Maybe the odd optional baddy as well, but an archer's bow will devastate everything else.

For the rest, well, it's well known that nothing can stand up to rocks.

Caeria

I don't usually do solo runs, I find them incredibly boring. I think I've only ever finished one, and that was ages ago, way before EE was even an idea.

There are penalties for using a bow in melee. I don't remember exactly what they are, as I usually ignore them and don't switch weapons because I'm lazy, but they're pretty significant. Well, actually, after some brief googling, it appears to be *a* penalty...a minus four to your THAC0.

So, that said, if you do it solo you're probably going to want to have a melee weapon, you just won't be very good at using it.

MrNooby

I don't plan to do a solo, I guess it's more of a question of, can they hold their own if something gets up in their face?

argent77

If you don't mind modding your game, you could try out the Improved Archer Kit. Even if you're not interested in the kit itself, the second component adds +4 arrows and bolts as well as a few nice longbows to the game (including one that compensates a few penalties when shooting in melee distance).

Caeria

In my experience, yes. I only really play no-reloads with SCS, and I don't like it when *anyone* in my party dies, so it's very important that everyone can hold their own, especially my charname. Also, when I play my archer, I always have two archers, because of...reasons

Oh, and upon further googling, it appears there is also an armor class penalty of four for using a bow in melee.

Editing to say that I *hate* the improved archer kit. With a fiery passion. I have no problems with mods that mod kits (I love wsr) but the improved archer kit just does not work for me at all. I haaate it.

MrNooby

I remember Kivan and Imoen alone were absolutely tearing things to pieces in BG1...I can only imagine how powerful it would be using an archer. 6 archers anyone?

Caeria

Archers are extremely powerful in BG1, but less so as the game goes on, unless you add in more powerful arrows yourself. They are severely limited by the fact that in the unmodded and unedited game, they are restricted to +3 arrows. Which means, in a game without better enchanted arrows, there would be some enemies that they would just not be able to kill.

MrNooby

Don't think there's anything like that in BG1 right? And BG2, doesn't the Gesen bow solve that issue, since it's +4?

Caeria

I actually don't know about the gesen bow. While my archer uses shortbows, she uses her own version of one based off one that can be found in rogue rebalancing, that I created just for her. I usually give the gesen bow to Imoen, who doesn't use it much, as she is busy casting spells

But yeah, in BG1 I've never had anything an archer couldn't hit.

lunar

MrNooby said:

Don't think there's anything like that in BG1 right? And BG2, doesn't the Gesen bow solve that issue, since it's +4?

It does.

Archers are very strong even in bg2. And viable. +2 arrows are enough to hit most critters. Only the ocasional ancient vampire, greater mummy, iron/adamantine golem, and maybe greater werewolf etc. the like requires +3 to hit. You can use +3 ammo on those. Only a few certain enemies require +4 to hit, and Gessen or Firetooth crossbow can hit them no problems.

Slings are also powerful, with a giant strength belt you enjoy + damage bonuses from the giant str, and magical sling's innate damage bonus, and +3 or +4 bullets are plenty, those bonuses all stack with the archer's built in ranged damage bonus. Attack/round is lower than bows BUT when you use greater whirlwind hla, a sling+4 with +4 bullets, give you +8 damage, add +10 damage from giant strength and +10 damage from high archer levels. That's 30 or more damage per sling shot. And you get 10 attacks in a whirlwind attack. An archer can wreck any foe not immune to missile damage with this combo.

Dispel arrows are very useful against mages. Biting arrows also shut down their spell casting. (hence, they are very costly) You can have fire/acid/icy arrows for elemental damage that seeps through stoneskin to disrupt mages even further, too.