Everyone keeps talking about the free xp they are missing out on by picking up Imoen too early, but is it actually free? I know that in BG1 if you wait too long before picking up your companions, they will level up really poorly with almost universally bad HP rolls. Does that no longer happen in BG2? Can you just go ahead and pick up characters at their highest levels without suffering for it?
Everyone keeps talking about the free xp they are missing out on by picking up Imoen too early, but is it actually free? I know that in BG1 if you wait too long before picking up your companions, they will level up really poorly with almost universally bad HP rolls. Does that no longer happen in BG2? Can you just go ahead and pick up characters at their highest levels without suffering for it?
Well, I think a fair number of people (myself included) use BGTweaks for ToB-style NPCs that you can level up yourself regardless of how much xp they have when you recruit them.
Even without that, though, the higher level cap in BG2 means that recruiting low isn't as critical. The main reason to do so in BG1 was to customize weapon proficiencies, but with the exception of Mazzy and Korgan (who can Grandmaster weapons), you can easily get any NPC the proficiencies you want even if you recruit them at the highest level.
So, I went to spellhold. My average party level is 10 and almost 1mil xp. I got the 400k xp version of her, but she's level 11, so at least that's on par. I feel like if I had completed just a couple more quests, I would be getting the 1.2mil xp, which is like getting 800k xp free for the party. In the long run, that could easily be 2 levels of experience. I'm kinda tempted to go back to an earlier save to make that happen. However, I think I would have to effectively have an average party level of 13 to make that happen, which would actually mean about 2 mil xp, so maybe it's a bit more that just a couple quests.
The only quests I've done are pretty much the ones that get thrust in your lap at the beginning of the game and felt "imperative" to my paladin charname. Otherwise, I think I would have even gone a little sooner.
Level 13 is the transition point between Imoen 400K XP and Imoen 1.25M XP. However, IIRC, what matters is charname's level, not an average party level.
Everyone keeps talking about the free xp they are missing out on by picking up Imoen too early, but is it actually free? I know that in BG1 if you wait too long before picking up your companions, they will level up really poorly with almost universally bad HP rolls. Does that no longer happen in BG2? Can you just go ahead and pick up characters at their highest levels without suffering for it?
This is true but in that case HP rolls do not matter because between a mage level 11 and level 13 you just get one more HP per level. The main differences between Imoen lvl11 and Imoen lvl13 are the spells and 1 pip in singleweapon.
This is true but in that case HP rolls do not matter because between a mage level 11 and level 13 you just get one more HP per level. The main differences between Imoen lvl11 and Imoen lvl13 are the spells and 1 pip in singleweapon.
Good point. There aren't any rolls to be screwed by.
So, I think I went to Spellhold on the early side. So early that it seemed like it was significantly scaled down. Really, it was a breeze. I ended up doing the Irenicus fight without even buffing and barely took any damage. The assassins fight after was a breeze, too. I definitely got the "lower level" Imoen, but she was still a higher level than my party (11, while the rest of us were around 10), so it all worked out.
Still wondering whether EE version of the game looks at your character's level (or lvl of first class if multiclassed) or xp as the determining factor for which Imoen you get (vanilla BG2 used npclevel.2da which went by lvl not xp, but EE seems like it ignores this file?). I suspect it's the former, which means multiclassed protagonist will get pooched as usual with no way to get her without being waaay behind the rest of the party... i remember Imoen being over a million xp behind in one BGT playthrough , which is a pain.
I've never had any problem with adding XP to a character who's underleveled when I pick them up. We used to do that in PnP all the time. Just set the XP of the new NPC to match the lowest individual in the party and play on.
For the original Bioware NPCs, the engine uses the average level of the whole party to decide the level at which the NPC is recruited. For multi-class and dual-class characters, both levels are taken into account, not just one of them - this can be especially significant for an early-dualled dual-class character, because the low-level original class drags the average down for the whole of the rest of the game.
The average level is measured at the moment you enter the area containing the target NPC. (However, if you leave the area without speaking to the target NPC, then the decision is cancelled and will be re-calculated when you come back to that area again.)
For the new Beamdog NPCs, I gather that a different mechanism is used ... but off the top of my head, i can't remember how it works. Maybe someone else can fill that gap.
For the new Beamdog NPCs, I gather that a different mechanism is used ... but off the top of my head, i can't remember how it works. Maybe someone else can fill that gap.
I think all the beamdog NPCs in SoA all start at 161000 XP but I just checked EE keeper and they do have the 400 000, 800 000, and 1 200 000 versions as well, so maybe these use the same formula as bg does to determine what level they are,
in my games I always try and get my party memebers as quickly as possible, because even if you use minsc and jaheira and you start at 89 000 XP that is 2 levels worth of full HP ups which will give them more HP than their level 9 or 10 counterparts, the question you might ask is; is enough to make a huge difference? and the answer may be nay, but being the silly power gamer that I am 6 more HP is infinitely better than -6 more HP
I would suggest doing at least De'Arnise Keep and the Umar Hills. They are both relatively easy and will net you some pretty good gear. Visit the various sections of the city, pick and choose what you want to finish or leave, your quest log will be chalk-full within hours. There are two NPCs who can easily replace Imoen's role for awhile and you can get them almost immediately after escaping the dungeon.
in my games I always try and get my party memebers as quickly as possible, because even if you use minsc and jaheira and you start at 89 000 XP that is 2 levels worth of full HP ups which will give them more HP than their level 9 or 10 counterparts ...
I also find it necessary to manage the timing of recruitment carefully, but I'm more motivated by proficiency allocations than HP.
Some NPCs (such as Valygar and Mazzy) will have bad auto-allocated proficiencies if you recruit a higher-level version (and I'm concerned that the higher starting-levels from SoD will ruin some NPCs permanently by making the lower-level versions of those NPCs inaccessible). On the other hand, there are also a couple of NPCs (Haer'Dalis and Cernd) which benefit by being recruited in their highest-level version, so I usually leave them until later if I want them in the permanent party.
I'm threadjacking a little here but my question is pretty relevant to the "What should I bring" portion of the OP, so it is probably better to ask here than create a new thread. Anyway, can you take a full team to Spellhold if you plan on recruiting Imoen (And Yoshimo not being part of the team)? And obviously without leaving some poor party member behind in her place. Basically I am asking if I kick someone out of my team, can I still tell them to meet me at the Copper Coronet, even though they shouldn't be likely to make it there?
@Giant2005 - er, well, in general no, you'll probably end up with someone left behind. However, I seem to recall that there are some NPCs which actually can find their way back alone ... but I can't remember which ones, because I've long been in the habit of always taking Yoshimo for that part of the game.
Maybe someone else can advise exactly which NPCs can find their own way home.
@Gallowglass I know of the longsword proficiencies from a high-level recruitment of Haer'Dalis, but what ar the benefits of recruiting Cernd late?
Firstly, that his unimpressive hit-dice rolls in the lower-level .cre files have been re-rolled for the higher-level files, and came out better, so he ends up with more HP than you could get by levelling him up yourself.
Secondly, that you can recruit him later with his Greater Werewolf transformation already available (i.e. at level 13), so that he's immediately a useful melee character, instead of being at the weakest part of a Shapeshifter's power curve and having to be nursed through a couple of levels before becoming useful.
@Gallowglass I know of the longsword proficiencies from a high-level recruitment of Haer'Dalis, but what ar the benefits of recruiting Cernd late?
Firstly, that his unimpressive hit-dice rolls in the lower-level .cre files have been re-rolled for the higher-level files, and came out better, so he ends up with more HP than you could get by levelling him up yourself.
Secondly, that you can recruit him later with his Greater Werewolf transformation already available (i.e. at level 13), so that he's immediately a useful melee character, instead of being at the weakest part of a Shapeshifter's power curve and having to be nursed through a couple of levels before becoming useful.
also if I seem to recall from at least the vanilla game, Cernd started with all of his weapon proficiencies although, not really needed because he was in shape shift mode, but single weapon style does still work while in the werewolf form
I go to Spellhold fairly early and I get the 400k xp version of Imoen and she is not noticeably behind for long! And she soon surpasses the multi-classes!
When I start Chapter 4 the party has 4 million xp in total, fighters are Level 10 and multi-classes are Level 9/Level 10 or so. If you bring a lot of spell scrolls to learn with Imoen (and Aerie whom is also a party member), and temporarily "park" other party members as Imoen scribes the spells (do not park Jaheira, though), Imoen can catch-up her xp level. So, at the end of Chapter 5 my party is fairly even has these levels and xp:
Cleric 14/Ranger 12 with 2.9 million xp Jaheira F13/Druid 13, 2.7m Keldorn L15, 2.3m Minsc L15, 2.4m Imoen Mage 15/Thief 7, 2.2m Aerie Cleric 13/Mage 13, 2.4m
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Even without that, though, the higher level cap in BG2 means that recruiting low isn't as critical. The main reason to do so in BG1 was to customize weapon proficiencies, but with the exception of Mazzy and Korgan (who can Grandmaster weapons), you can easily get any NPC the proficiencies you want even if you recruit them at the highest level.
The average level is measured at the moment you enter the area containing the target NPC. (However, if you leave the area without speaking to the target NPC, then the decision is cancelled and will be re-calculated when you come back to that area again.)
For the new Beamdog NPCs, I gather that a different mechanism is used ... but off the top of my head, i can't remember how it works. Maybe someone else can fill that gap.
in my games I always try and get my party memebers as quickly as possible, because even if you use minsc and jaheira and you start at 89 000 XP that is 2 levels worth of full HP ups which will give them more HP than their level 9 or 10 counterparts, the question you might ask is; is enough to make a huge difference? and the answer may be nay, but being the silly power gamer that I am 6 more HP is infinitely better than -6 more HP
Some NPCs (such as Valygar and Mazzy) will have bad auto-allocated proficiencies if you recruit a higher-level version (and I'm concerned that the higher starting-levels from SoD will ruin some NPCs permanently by making the lower-level versions of those NPCs inaccessible). On the other hand, there are also a couple of NPCs (Haer'Dalis and Cernd) which benefit by being recruited in their highest-level version, so I usually leave them until later if I want them in the permanent party.
Anyway, can you take a full team to Spellhold if you plan on recruiting Imoen (And Yoshimo not being part of the team)? And obviously without leaving some poor party member behind in her place.
Basically I am asking if I kick someone out of my team, can I still tell them to meet me at the Copper Coronet, even though they shouldn't be likely to make it there?
Maybe someone else can advise exactly which NPCs can find their own way home.
Secondly, that you can recruit him later with his Greater Werewolf transformation already available (i.e. at level 13), so that he's immediately a useful melee character, instead of being at the weakest part of a Shapeshifter's power curve and having to be nursed through a couple of levels before becoming useful.
When I start Chapter 4 the party has 4 million xp in total, fighters are Level 10 and multi-classes are Level 9/Level 10 or so. If you bring a lot of spell scrolls to learn with Imoen (and Aerie whom is also a party member), and temporarily "park" other party members as Imoen scribes the spells (do not park Jaheira, though), Imoen can catch-up her xp level. So, at the end of Chapter 5 my party is fairly even has these levels and xp:
Cleric 14/Ranger 12 with 2.9 million xp
Jaheira F13/Druid 13, 2.7m
Keldorn L15, 2.3m
Minsc L15, 2.4m
Imoen Mage 15/Thief 7, 2.2m
Aerie Cleric 13/Mage 13, 2.4m
Party has 15m xp total.